My P4P top 20 list, I'm interested in what you guys think?

Martin_H · Post by **Martin_H** » 11 Oct 2005, 05:44

I’ve compiled a top 20 P4P list, I’d be interested to know what you guys think about it?

No.1 Marco Antonio Barrera
His level of competition over the last 5yrs has been exceptional. He's able to brawl, play the counter pucnhing game and has one punch KO power - In short, he's got the full aresenal! And has proved it time and time again against the elite.

No.2 Winky Wright
This guy has had a hard route to the top. His boxing skills are tremendous and under-rated. In my eye's he'd beat ANYONE in both the 154lbs & 160lbs division right now.

No.3 Floyd Mayweather Jr
You can't deny this kid has awesome skills, but he's dropping fast on the list because he's not fought anyone of genuine World class since his 2nd fight with Castillo way back in 2002'. His next fight is against a 38yr old Shamba Mitchell "FLOYD! PLEASE STEP UP THE COMPETITION!

No.4 Juan Manuel Marquez
This guy has to be the best counter-puncher in the game today. + He hits a lot harder than is given credit for... I can't see many people being able to beat this guy P4P.

No.5 Manny Pacquiao
If it ain't broke then don't fix it. His fast power punching pressure style wins him fights, and wins him fights against the big players in the game! People talk about him as if he's just a wild slugger with hand speed, but there's a lot more to him than just that.

No.6 Ricky Hatton
He didn't just win against the great Kostya Tszyu, he beat him into submission on route to a 12rd TKO Win. I don't think there's another fighter out there at the moment that is as affective at closing the distance as Ricky Hatton is.

No.7 Jose Luis Castillo
His level of competition lately has been exceptional, he just beat Diego Corrales by devistating 4th rd KO. couple them two together and he's gotta be somewhere in the top 10!

No.8 Kostya Tszyu
He's dominated the Light-welterweight division for nearly a decade and unified it. If he does get the 2nd fight with Zab Judah I can see that fight ending in the same way.

No.9 Jermain Taylor
He beat the whiley old lap dog, but it was a little touch and go. A lot of people thought he lost to Bernard. What's impressed me however is his complete willingness to get straight back in the ring with Hopkins and do it again... Show's confidence in himself.

No.10 Bernard Hopkins
There maybe life in the old dog still? The Taylor fight was very close. If he loses then it's time to retire.

No.11 Erik Morales
The loss to Raheem damages Morales P4P ranking quite a lot. Sometimes fighters have an off night, and Erik Morales shouldn't have been fighting up at lightweight anyway. He used to be a bantamweight! We'll see how he gets on with Pacquiao next. (Although I don't think it'll be good news for him).

No.12 Zab Judah
He's a good fighter, but still has a lot to prove. Name me one World class P4P fighter that Judah has beaten, (And don't say Corey Spinks! ) and you can see why I have him down in 12th.

No.13 Joe Calzaghe
I know he pisses people off with his inactivity, or how he's not been able to secure a big fight... But he's 39-0-0 (31 KO's), he's defended his WBO belt 18 times! In those defenses have included 5 former World champions who all reined for a significant length of time.

No.14 Miguel Cotto
This kid has SOOOOO MUCH ability, he just needs to get back to basics. He's tried to have a slug-out competition in his last few fights but he's so much more than this! If he just get's back to his boxing skills (which he has in abundance) he'll be back on the road to super-stardom.

No.15 Diego Corrales
He may have been hammered by Castillo in his last fight, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that he beat, Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, and Jose Luis Castillo all on the bounce. Now that's impressive in ANYONES eyes!

No.16 Oscar Larios
He's always been a good fighter, and he's defended his WBC super-bantamweight belt for 8 times now, I just think he needs career defining fight to boost his profile, perhaps Juan Manuel Marquez at 126lbs?

No.17 Vitali Klitschko
He's the heavyweight champion of the World, no one in his division comes close to him at the moment. Remember, he gave the great Lennox Lewis big problems when they fought.

No.18 Antonio Tarver
He's quite a long way down on my list because frankly, I don't really rate him. Beating up old Roy Jones Junior and struggling with the "The Road Warrior" isn't gonna get you in the top 10 P4P.

No.19 Jean Marc Mormeck
He's beaten Virgil Hill twice and Wayne Braithwaite in his last few fights, + he's well on the way to unifying the division, If he beats O'Neil Bell next (which he probably will) he can add the IBF belt to his collection. He'll then hold all three major belts WBC/WBA/IBF.

No.20 Roman Karmazin
The new king at light-middleweight perhaps? Some of you Brits will remember how he battered the crap out of David Walker a couple of years ago to a 3rd KO. I think we knew then that it was very likely that this guy would hold a genuine World title one day.

numpty · Post by **numpty** » 11 Oct 2005, 05:51

Looks good, I would swap Larios for Cotto though and Diego maybe needs to be a little higher IMO.

Other than that, good list

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 11 Oct 2005, 06:07

Depends how you look at P4P I guess - but if it's who beats who, then Floyd gets the top spot in my opinion. In terms of talent, no one comes close. He'd probably outclass MAB if it came down to it
( think Whitaker/Nelson ) and while you have to admire Winky, he'd just be another contender in another era ( Hagler, Leonard, Duran ) whereas Floyd would fit right in with just about anyone.

But yes, he needs to step it up.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 11 Oct 2005, 06:55

Its not bad a few fighters I think you have too high.

JM Marquez - I really rate the guy but top 4?

Manny Pacquiao - lost to Morales,

Joe Calzaghe - wouldn't be top twenty for me.

A few I think you have a bit low.

Mormeck, Tarver, Corrales - got to be by Castillo, Casamayor (should feature), Rafael Marquez! (in the top ten for me), and maybe a bigger consideration for the little guys - like Arce, Alvarez, Montiel, Castillo etc.

I'd have Corey Spinks above Joe Calzaghe.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 11 Oct 2005, 08:36

Calzaghe is too high, and Tarver perhaps too low. Otherwise quite a good top 20 I'd say.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 11 Oct 2005, 08:44

Interesting list, these type of things always cause debate which of course is a good thing, i wouldn't have Calzaghe top 20 myself and i think Hopkins is way too low. As i said in a previous pound for pound topic i don't think one tight loss diminishes years of domination at Middleweight and allows him to be overtaken by less deserving fighters. Other than that it's a good list

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 11 Oct 2005, 08:55

i like how you havent dismissed Tszyu and Hopkins yet, ther still is life in them

good list

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 11 Oct 2005, 09:28

I don't think one boxer who beats another ranked aboive him should automatically be placed above him.

P4P is all about achievements up to that point.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 11 Oct 2005, 14:09

Southpaw Stylist wrote:I don't think one boxer who beats another ranked aboive him should automatically be placed above him.

P4P is all about achievements up to that point.

Well that's why i am perplexed how Hopkins has dropped so much in peoples lists, i mean 10th is a massive drop considering his achievements thus far. I think fourth for Marquez is a bit high as well, maybe Larios should be rated higher as well, it's all about opinions

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 11 Oct 2005, 14:37

Only about 4 fights ago Barrera got dominated from bell to bell by the guy 4 places below him. Recently Barrera has taken two gimmie fights in Fana and Peden. Floyd Mayweather is CLEARLY the best p4p fighter today, and didn't get pounded a few fights ago.

Hut*Hut · Post by **Hut*Hut** » 11 Oct 2005, 15:25

No one stands out right now....Barrera got dominated by Pac, Mayweather hasn't fought a top opponent in 3 years, Hopkins got edged out for fighting dumb, Morales lost, Tszyu lost, Hatton doesn't deserve consideration yet and Tarver = right place right time.

Wright probably shades it :-

1. Wright
2. Hopkins
3. Mayweather
4. Barrera
5. Hatton
6. Castillo
7. Pacqiou
8. Taylor
9. Morales
T. Judah

You could throw the top 15 in the air - any way they land could be argued for. P4P is a nonsense, IMO....lists ALWAYS seem embarassingly missguided 18 monthes down the line.

DK2112 · Post by **DK2112** » 11 Oct 2005, 17:27

Corrales below Calzaghe is just too shocking for words

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 12 Oct 2005, 06:49

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Only about 4 fights ago Barrera got dominated from bell to bell by the guy 4 places below him. Recently Barrera has taken two gimmie fights in Fana and Peden. Floyd Mayweather is CLEARLY the best p4p fighter today, and didn't get pounded a few fights ago.

What are you talking about Barrera's gimmie fights you moron, Mayweather hasn't had a tough fight in three years. You are telling me that Mayweather is CLEARLY the best P4P fighter today when his opponents for the past three years have been Gatti, Bruseles, Corley, N'Dou and Sosa? Before that he proved he was great by fighting Castillo, Chavez and Corrales but you can't diss Barrera for taking gimmies and then make such a moronic statement about Mayweather.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 12 Oct 2005, 06:56

Martin_H wrote:I’ve compiled a top 20 P4P list, I’d be interested to know what you guys think about it?

No.1 Marco Antonio Barrera
His level of competition over the last 5yrs has been exceptional. He's able to brawl, play the counter pucnhing game and has one punch KO power - In short, he's got the full aresenal! And has proved it time and time again against the elite.

No.2 Winky Wright
This guy has had a hard route to the top. His boxing skills are tremendous and under-rated. In my eye's he'd beat ANYONE in both the 154lbs & 160lbs division right now.

No.3 Floyd Mayweather Jr
You can't deny this kid has awesome skills, but he's dropping fast on the list because he's not fought anyone of genuine World class since his 2nd fight with Castillo way back in 2002'. His next fight is against a 38yr old Shamba Mitchell "FLOYD! PLEASE STEP UP THE COMPETITION!

No.4 Juan Manuel Marquez
This guy has to be the best counter-puncher in the game today. + He hits a lot harder than is given credit for... I can't see many people being able to beat this guy P4P.

No.5 Manny Pacquiao
If it ain't broke then don't fix it. His fast power punching pressure style wins him fights, and wins him fights against the big players in the game! People talk about him as if he's just a wild slugger with hand speed, but there's a lot more to him than just that.

No.6 Ricky Hatton
He didn't just win against the great Kostya Tszyu, he beat him into submission on route to a 12rd TKO Win. I don't think there's another fighter out there at the moment that is as affective at closing the distance as Ricky Hatton is.

No.7 Jose Luis Castillo
His level of competition lately has been exceptional, he just beat Diego Corrales by devistating 4th rd KO. couple them two together and he's gotta be somewhere in the top 10!

No.8 Kostya Tszyu
He's dominated the Light-welterweight division for nearly a decade and unified it. If he does get the 2nd fight with Zab Judah I can see that fight ending in the same way.

No.9 Jermain Taylor
He beat the whiley old lap dog, but it was a little touch and go. A lot of people thought he lost to Bernard. What's impressed me however is his complete willingness to get straight back in the ring with Hopkins and do it again... Show's confidence in himself.

No.10 Bernard Hopkins
There maybe life in the old dog still? The Taylor fight was very close. If he loses then it's time to retire.

No.11 Erik Morales
The loss to Raheem damages Morales P4P ranking quite a lot. Sometimes fighters have an off night, and Erik Morales shouldn't have been fighting up at lightweight anyway. He used to be a bantamweight! We'll see how he gets on with Pacquiao next. (Although I don't think it'll be good news for him).

No.12 Zab Judah
He's a good fighter, but still has a lot to prove. Name me one World class P4P fighter that Judah has beaten, (And don't say Corey Spinks! ) and you can see why I have him down in 12th.

No.13 Joe Calzaghe
I know he pisses people off with his inactivity, or how he's not been able to secure a big fight... But he's 39-0-0 (31 KO's), he's defended his WBO belt 18 times! In those defenses have included 5 former World champions who all reined for a significant length of time.

No.14 Miguel Cotto
This kid has SOOOOO MUCH ability, he just needs to get back to basics. He's tried to have a slug-out competition in his last few fights but he's so much more than this! If he just get's back to his boxing skills (which he has in abundance) he'll be back on the road to super-stardom.

No.15 Diego Corrales
He may have been hammered by Castillo in his last fight, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that he beat, Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, and Jose Luis Castillo all on the bounce. Now that's impressive in ANYONES eyes!

No.16 Oscar Larios
He's always been a good fighter, and he's defended his WBC super-bantamweight belt for 8 times now, I just think he needs career defining fight to boost his profile, perhaps Juan Manuel Marquez at 126lbs?

No.17 Vitali Klitschko
He's the heavyweight champion of the World, no one in his division comes close to him at the moment. Remember, he gave the great Lennox Lewis big problems when they fought.

No.18 Antonio Tarver
He's quite a long way down on my list because frankly, I don't really rate him. Beating up old Roy Jones Junior and struggling with the "The Road Warrior" isn't gonna get you in the top 10 P4P.

No.19 Jean Marc Mormeck
He's beaten Virgil Hill twice and Wayne Braithwaite in his last few fights, + he's well on the way to unifying the division, If he beats O'Neil Bell next (which he probably will) he can add the IBF belt to his collection. He'll then hold all three major belts WBC/WBA/IBF.

No.20 Roman Karmazin
The new king at light-middleweight perhaps? Some of you Brits will remember how he battered the crap out of David Walker a couple of years ago to a 3rd KO. I think we knew then that it was very likely that this guy would hold a genuine World title one day.

Sorry, but I have limited respect for anybody who drops Hopkins from undisputed P4P king down to 10th for being robbed of a (close-ish) decision win against Taylor.

Barrera done well against Morales but took an awful hiding from Pacman. That has never happened to Hops, not Winky, nor Mayweather. Marquez looks great but hasn't proved enough.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 12 Oct 2005, 07:08

DK2112 wrote:Corrales below Calzaghe is just too shocking for words

Is it, why? He's lost as many as he's won recently.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 12 Oct 2005, 08:02

Personally I wouldn't have Corralles or Calzaghe in top 10.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 12 Oct 2005, 08:16

Mine is something like this:

1. Hopkins (Taylors undeserved win takes nothing away from his ranking)
2. Winky (Don't think I'll get much resistance here)
3. PBF (As good as he looks, Gatti, Bruseles, Corley, N'dou & Sousa in past three years does not make you P4P number 1)
4. Barrera (Came back from Pacquiao beating to beat Morales and still solid as ever)
5. Castillo (Only man to give PBF trouble and the guy is a little monster)
6. Pacquiao (Beat Barrera and lost close decision after being cut badly and after moving up in weight to fight Morales)
7. Morales (Looks to have moved up too much in weight after recent loss but still holds the win over Pacman)
8. Marquez (Great skills but needs to show them against somebody good - great comeback against Pac)
9. Toney (Still doing it easily, even whilst fat and old)
10. Judah / Hatton (Undisputed Light Welter / Welter champions both deserve a place in the top 10)

J · Post by J » 12 Oct 2005, 09:23

NICE JOHN,

CANT DISAGREE WITH THAT APART FROM ID SWAP NARD AND PBF OVER.

id also have taltyor and hatton just outside the top ten need another win to P4P material imo.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 12 Oct 2005, 09:36

J wrote:NICE JOHN, CANT DISAGREE WITH THAT APART FROM ID SWAP NARD AND PBF OVER.

id also have taltyor and hatton just outside the top ten need another win to P4P material imo.

I wouldn't put Taylor in Top 15. I just put Hatton in because he made somebody I considered Top 3 at the time (Tszyu) quit on his stool. Taylor didn't beat Hopkins up, nor did he stop him. I know people would argue over Hopkins being top but I thought his performance against Taylor and how he dealt with him was superb for the most part and if anything it strengthened his P4P status. He schooled Taylor in ring generalship and also beat him up late on. He made the young bull look like an old man and I would love for him to be able to stop him in the rematch. If he manages that, he'll be retiring as P4P number 1 with no debate - when was the last time a fighter done that?

On the other side, I can see how people would say "Well if he is P4P number 1, it shouldn't even be close in a fight against a guy you say you rank outside your Top 15". Taylor was a tough opponent and just because he hasn't achieved enough to date to enter the Top 10 in my book, it doesn't mean he should be a walkover. I thought Hops fought the perfect fight against a fighter like Taylor.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 12 Oct 2005, 09:39

The old saying of if you beat the man doesn't mean you become the man rings true for me, Taylor is a good argument for top 10 inclusion but Hopkins must remain top 3 at least until after the rematch in December. Hopkins defeat to Taylor was the first he has had for years, Barrera lost to Pacquiao not so long ago remember and even though he bounced back with wins over Morales, Fana and Peden i still see Hopkins higher placed, probably fighting it out with Wright for second spot with Mayweather at No. 1

J · Post by J » 12 Oct 2005, 09:43

iM A Huge Hopkins fan as those who know me will testify but John he didnt do enough to win that fight mate.

HJe didnt start fighting til the 8th too late.

THough I hope he wins the rematch to silence the doubters

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 12 Oct 2005, 09:47

I am a Hopkins fan as well but i don't think he won enough of the rounds either, however i cannot see him making the same mistakes second time round.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 12 Oct 2005, 09:49

J wrote:iM A Huge Hopkins fan as those who know me will testify but John he didnt do enough to win that fight mate.

HJe didnt start fighting til the 8th too late.

THough I hope he wins the rematch to silence the doubters

At the time I brought up the need to award more rounds even in boxing. To have Taylor five or six rounds up after the first half of the fight (as many did) was not a reflection of how the fight went. Not getting into all that again but Hopkins done more in a 10-9 round later on than Taylor did in four of his 10-9 rounds. I know judges are pressed to award a round to a fighter but I just don't see the sense in that. It doesn't give a clear indication of who is winning the fight. I like to see more 10-10 rounds. It's just a bit ridiculous that a guy can win six close and cautious chess-like rounds, yet then gets beaten up for the rest of the fight but manages to stay on his feet and the fight can be a draw. Or at least even award 10-9 to the marginally better guy but then 10-8 for clearly dominated rounds in a fight such as that one.

states · Post by **states** » 12 Oct 2005, 09:54

I think I had quite a few rounds even, but still had Taylor the winner. Hopkins knows how fights are scored, it's his own fault for not getting going. I expect him to right all of that in the rematch though.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 12 Oct 2005, 10:10

johnswan1 wrote:
Martin_H wrote:I’ve compiled a top 20 P4P list, I’d be interested to know what you guys think about it?

No.1 Marco Antonio Barrera
His level of competition over the last 5yrs has been exceptional. He's able to brawl, play the counter pucnhing game and has one punch KO power - In short, he's got the full aresenal! And has proved it time and time again against the elite.

No.2 Winky Wright
This guy has had a hard route to the top. His boxing skills are tremendous and under-rated. In my eye's he'd beat ANYONE in both the 154lbs & 160lbs division right now.

No.3 Floyd Mayweather Jr
You can't deny this kid has awesome skills, but he's dropping fast on the list because he's not fought anyone of genuine World class since his 2nd fight with Castillo way back in 2002'. His next fight is against a 38yr old Shamba Mitchell "FLOYD! PLEASE STEP UP THE COMPETITION!

No.4 Juan Manuel Marquez
This guy has to be the best counter-puncher in the game today. + He hits a lot harder than is given credit for... I can't see many people being able to beat this guy P4P.

No.5 Manny Pacquiao
If it ain't broke then don't fix it. His fast power punching pressure style wins him fights, and wins him fights against the big players in the game! People talk about him as if he's just a wild slugger with hand speed, but there's a lot more to him than just that.

No.6 Ricky Hatton
He didn't just win against the great Kostya Tszyu, he beat him into submission on route to a 12rd TKO Win. I don't think there's another fighter out there at the moment that is as affective at closing the distance as Ricky Hatton is.

No.7 Jose Luis Castillo
His level of competition lately has been exceptional, he just beat Diego Corrales by devistating 4th rd KO. couple them two together and he's gotta be somewhere in the top 10!

No.8 Kostya Tszyu
He's dominated the Light-welterweight division for nearly a decade and unified it. If he does get the 2nd fight with Zab Judah I can see that fight ending in the same way.

No.9 Jermain Taylor
He beat the whiley old lap dog, but it was a little touch and go. A lot of people thought he lost to Bernard. What's impressed me however is his complete willingness to get straight back in the ring with Hopkins and do it again... Show's confidence in himself.

No.10 Bernard Hopkins
There maybe life in the old dog still? The Taylor fight was very close. If he loses then it's time to retire.

No.11 Erik Morales
The loss to Raheem damages Morales P4P ranking quite a lot. Sometimes fighters have an off night, and Erik Morales shouldn't have been fighting up at lightweight anyway. He used to be a bantamweight! We'll see how he gets on with Pacquiao next. (Although I don't think it'll be good news for him).

No.12 Zab Judah
He's a good fighter, but still has a lot to prove. Name me one World class P4P fighter that Judah has beaten, (And don't say Corey Spinks! ) and you can see why I have him down in 12th.

No.13 Joe Calzaghe
I know he pisses people off with his inactivity, or how he's not been able to secure a big fight... But he's 39-0-0 (31 KO's), he's defended his WBO belt 18 times! In those defenses have included 5 former World champions who all reined for a significant length of time.

No.14 Miguel Cotto
This kid has SOOOOO MUCH ability, he just needs to get back to basics. He's tried to have a slug-out competition in his last few fights but he's so much more than this! If he just get's back to his boxing skills (which he has in abundance) he'll be back on the road to super-stardom.

No.15 Diego Corrales
He may have been hammered by Castillo in his last fight, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that he beat, Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, and Jose Luis Castillo all on the bounce. Now that's impressive in ANYONES eyes!

No.16 Oscar Larios
He's always been a good fighter, and he's defended his WBC super-bantamweight belt for 8 times now, I just think he needs career defining fight to boost his profile, perhaps Juan Manuel Marquez at 126lbs?

No.17 Vitali Klitschko
He's the heavyweight champion of the World, no one in his division comes close to him at the moment. Remember, he gave the great Lennox Lewis big problems when they fought.

No.18 Antonio Tarver
He's quite a long way down on my list because frankly, I don't really rate him. Beating up old Roy Jones Junior and struggling with the "The Road Warrior" isn't gonna get you in the top 10 P4P.

No.19 Jean Marc Mormeck
He's beaten Virgil Hill twice and Wayne Braithwaite in his last few fights, + he's well on the way to unifying the division, If he beats O'Neil Bell next (which he probably will) he can add the IBF belt to his collection. He'll then hold all three major belts WBC/WBA/IBF.

No.20 Roman Karmazin
The new king at light-middleweight perhaps? Some of you Brits will remember how he battered the crap out of David Walker a couple of years ago to a 3rd KO. I think we knew then that it was very likely that this guy would hold a genuine World title one day.
Sorry, but I have limited respect for anybody who drops Hopkins from undisputed P4P king down to 10th for being robbed of a (close-ish) decision win against Taylor.

Barrera done well against Morales but took an awful hiding from Pacman. That has never happened to Hops, not Winky, nor Mayweather. Marquez looks great but hasn't proved enough.

Very true re: Hopkins.

I would say

1) MayWeather
2) Winky Wright
3) James Toney - P4p - he was a Middleweight FFS. - who has his skills?
4) Hopkins
5) Barrera
6) Morales
7) Marquez
8) Tarver
9) Klitschko V.. He is crap but effective
10) Judah - Chin too weak.

My P4P top 20 list, I'm interested in what you guys think?

My P4P top 20 list, I'm interested in what you guys think?

Re: My P4P top 20 list, I'm interested in what you guys thin

Re: My P4P top 20 list, I'm interested in what you guys thin