BoxRec

Pete Rademacher challenged Patterson in his first prof fight....(talk about bum of the month tours).... Leon Spinks had about 14 or something thereabout....... Marvis Frazier had i think 11 wen he took on Holmes....
Which other 'Novices?' challenged for the world heavyweight title ?

Leon had seven fights when he was given a title shot. It is hard to think of fighters who had less tha twenty fights who were given a title shot, however it would be easy to think of a lot of bad fighters who were given a shot.

I think I saw all seven of those fights by Leon, they paired him with guys that made him look very good. They were pretty exciting fights as a result.

Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

BoxBuzz wrote:I think I saw all seven of those fights by Leon, they paired him with guys that made him look very good. They were pretty exciting fights as a result.

Rademacher tops them all. Debut for the HW championship?

You gotta admit, though. Spinks wasn't exactly brought up on the Butterbean diet either. Three of those first seven before he fought Ali were against Pedro Agosto, Alfio Righetti and Scott LeDoux (not necessarily in that order). Righetti and LeDoux were both ranked fighters, and Agosto was a seasoned veteran with fights against a lot of tough opponents.

Leon Spinks was never babied. He was more or less thrown to the wolves.

I still have the Holmes/Frazier fight though have not watched it for ages.

I just recall the sight of Holmes motioning the ref to come in to stop the beating he was handing out. The ref took ages to cotton on and I think Frazier must have taken at least 20 punches he did not have to

Slapsie

overhand_right wrote:Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

Holmes DUCKED Page? When did Page deserve a title shot? When he was getting embarassed by Berbick (who Holmes beat) losing an excruciatingly poor fight with Witherspoon (who Holmes beat) or following that with a loss to the fondly remembered David Bey (who Holmes beat) . . . .???

dempseyfire wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

Holmes DUCKED Page? When did Page deserve a title shot? When he was getting embarassed by Berbick (who Holmes beat) losing an excruciatingly poor fight with Witherspoon (who Holmes beat) or following that with a loss to the fondly remembered David Bey (who Holmes beat) . . . .???

Damn good post

dempseyfire wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

Holmes DUCKED Page? When did Page deserve a title shot? When he was getting embarassed by Berbick (who Holmes beat) losing an excruciatingly poor fight with Witherspoon (who Holmes beat) or following that with a loss to the fondly remembered David Bey (who Holmes beat) . . . .???

He earned his shot at the end of 83.Holmes did not want to fight him.

Slapsie I was completely confused about your post, I was thinking you were in the twilight zone that Frazier and Holmes never fought, took me to the count of 10 before I figured out you were talking about marvis.

I just never give marvis any respect at all. I dont even capitalize his name. But I should.

BoxBuzz wrote:Slapsie I was completely confused about your post, I was thinking you were in the twilight zone that Frazier and Holmes never fought, took me to the count of 10 before I figured out you were talking about marvis.

I just never give marvis any respect at all. I dont even capitalize his name. But I should.

Yeah, you should show him some respect. He certainly wasn't his father, but he had some pretty good wins during his short career. No shame in losing to Holmes and Tyson. Those were his only two loses and he beat Bonecrusher, Bugner, Tillis, Ribalta and Broad. Actualy, those sound better than big Klit's wins.

Holmes win over Witherspoon was a robbery if Ive ever seen one. One of the many cases in his career of getting preferential treatment by officials.

overhand_right wrote:Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

I remember watching Chris Schenkle interview Michael Dokes on ABC back when the media covered boxing. He asked Dokes if their were any plans to unify the title, this was right after Dokes had beaten Weaver for the WBA half. Doke's response was that he didn't see it happening, he did not give an explanation. I remeber screaming at the tv, ASK HIM WHY NOT!!! That follow up question never came. To bad he didn't have John Stossle or Chris Wallace ask the question because if they were doing the interview he would have been grilled.

I always thought that it was Don King keeping it from happening rather that either fighter ducking the other one. Holmes did defend his title against some lackluster opponents, but that just seems to be the route that boxing went.

Tycoon2002 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

Holmes DUCKED Page? When did Page deserve a title shot? When he was getting embarassed by Berbick (who Holmes beat) losing an excruciatingly poor fight with Witherspoon (who Holmes beat) or following that with a loss to the fondly remembered David Bey (who Holmes beat) . . . .???

Damn good post

dempseyfire wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Check out Larry Holmes record, he boxed a whole string of guys who were between 5 to 10 fights short of being ready to fight for the world title (whilst ducking the guys like Dokes, Page etc)

Holmes DUCKED Page? When did Page deserve a title shot? When he was getting embarassed by Berbick (who Holmes beat) losing an excruciatingly poor fight with Witherspoon (who Holmes beat) or following that with a loss to the fondly remembered David Bey (who Holmes beat) . . . .???

Yeah I have to agree. Personally I never got all the fuss about Dokes, apart from beating the notoriously slow starting and chinny Weaver who else did he beat? Dokes underachieved and had talent, well that applies to thousands of fighters.

He had some talent, but wasted it, probably primarily because of drugs.
Dokes' next biggest win was the first round KO of Ocasio. this was before Ocasio's career fell apart and he was still decent.
He also beat Tex Cobb a couple of times.

After Dokes lost to Coetzee, he sort of went into a funk. He pretty much just fought a couple of journeyman a year for the next six years.
Too bad. It would have been interesting to see him against Thomas, Witherspoon, Page etc.

He did put in a good effort against Holyfield. He gave a prime Holyfield all that he could handle.

Michael Bentt?

Boxing Prospect wrote:Michael Bentt?

Good call.

Leon Spinks

Dereck Chysora was only 15-2 when he faced Vitali.
Not a novice but far from a seasoned pro

....i think leon's record before fighting ali was 6 and one draw. if i'm wrong buzzy will be certain to correct me. in fact he'll even do it if i'm right.

jaclem3 wrote:....i think leon's record before fighting ali was 6 and one draw. if i'm wrong buzzy will be certain to correct me. in fact he'll even do it if i'm right.

lol You are correct sir! That draw was with Scott LeDoux

This goes back to the turn of the 20th century.... but.... essentially "The Maori Wonder" Herbert Slade fought John L. Sullivan in his professional debut. True, he fought several exhibitions with his trainer, manager, mentor Jem Mace... but that was the extent of his previous boxing experience. I think Mace worked on Slade for a number of years prior to Sullivan. Slade fought exhibitions with some others, but no legit pro fights until Sullivan.

However, we have to understand, in those times the Marquis of Queensbury rules was considered a novelty... Sullivan was presenting it to the American public and world and offering cash money to anyone who could last four rounds with him... "Real" championship fights were still under the London Prize Ring rules and most people didnt quite understand the MQ rules prohibited wrestling. Slade was a powerful and prodigous wrestler, and it was thought that his size and abilities in THAT sport would help him defeat Sullivan with or without gloves.

The result? Sullivan hit Slade so hard he knocked him UP AND OVER THE TOP ROPE.