BoxRec

I thought we might as well go the next step. I tried not to show any bias regarding the eras that fighters fought in,their styles, and how much I like or dislike them.
This is based on their "body of work" not just their best or worst few fights.
It does get a lot harder as you go further down the list. For example, there a much bigger difference between #1 and # 30 than #31 and #60.
We have debated the top 10-20 a lot lately, so I thought it would more interesting to discuss guys from 30-100.

If you think someone that wasn't rated should be, also say who shouldn't be in the top 100.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman
4. Jack Johnson
5. Joe Frazier
6. Gene Tunney
7. Larry Holmes
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Evander holyfield
11. Lennox Lewis
12. Sonny Liston
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Mike Tyson
15. James Jeffries
16. Sam Langford
17. Harry Wills
18. Joe Jeanette
19. Sam McVey
20. Ezzard Charles
21. Joe Walcott
22. Ken Norton
23. Floyd Patterson
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. James Corbett
26. Max Baer
27. Max Schmeling
28. Jack Sharkey
29. Michael Moorer
30. Michael Spinks
31. Tony Tucker
32. Buster Douglas
33. John L Sullivan
34. Vitaly Klitscho
35. Hasim Rahman
36. Tommy Burns
37. Ray Mercer
38. Ingemar Johansson
39. Jimmy Ellis
40. Ernie Terrell
41. Zora Folley
42. Eddie Machen
43. Jerry Quarry
44. Chris Byrd
45. Tim Witherspoon
46. Tony Tubbs
47. James Smith
48. Pinklon Thomas
49. Trevor Berbick
50. Michael Dokes
51. Greg Page
52. Mike Weaver
53. Oliver McCall
54. John Tate
55. Frank Bruno
56. Gerrie Coetzee
57. Jimmy Young
58. Peter Jackson
59. Tom Sharkey
60. Joe Choynski
61. Elmer Ray
62. Jim Braddock
63. George Chuvalo
64. Ron Lyle
65. Marvin Hart
66. Ernie Schaaf
67. Ernie Shavers
68. Leotis Martin
69. Donovan Ruddock
70. Oscar Bonavena
71. Cleveland Williams
72. Gerry Cooney
73. Primo Carnera
74. George Godfrey
75. Larry Gains
76. Renaldo Snipes
77. Carl Williams
78. Joe Bugner
79. Buddy Baer
80. David Tua
81. Wladimir Klitschko
82. Paulino Uzcudun
83. Roland La Starza
84. Rex Layne
85. Young Stribling
86. Karl Mildenberger
87. Jess Willard
88. John Ruiz ( Sorry, but I had to put him in here)
89. Leon Spinks
90. Bruce Seldon
91. Fred Fulton
92. Billy Miske
93. Luis Firpo
94. Frank Moran
95. Carl Morris
96. Gunboat Smith
97. Johnny Risko
98. Henry Cooper
99. Tommy Farr
100. Jim Flynn

Decagon wrote:You do know that most of Carnera's fights were works, don't you?

Many were, but I would not say most were. Primo was not without skills, and could be favorably compared to many of the giant HW's of today. He possesed decent skills, was a bit clumsy and not a terrific puncher, but could KO opponents because of his great size and strength. This description could also be used to desrcibe a Klitschko.

Decagon wrote:...or through completely unable opponents.

This could also be said about most of the HW's of the past 25 years or so. Most of the opponents of HW's are very much hand picked to ensure good results. Unfortunately, that's even true of the HW's after they have attained a certain degree of success.

Foreman, Holyfield and Bowe are too high. Dempsey should be top 5 IMO. Charles and Walcott are also too low...it's hard to argue putting Sam McVey and Joe Jeanette in front of them (as good as they were).

Buster Douglas is way too high.

You have guys like Tony Tubbs, Tim Witherspoon, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick, and Michael Dokes ahead of Peter Jackson, Elmer Ray, George Chuvalo, Marvin Hart, and Ron Lyle...and George Godfrey at 74???? He's a top 50 at the very least. You have Tuaman ahead of greats like Young Stribling and Gunboat Smith. They would have boxed circles around Tua. Leon Spinks, Luis Firpo, Gunboat Smith, Henry Cooper and Tommy Farr were all better than Ruiz IMO. Putting guys like Bonecrusher Smith in the top 50 and Billy Miske at 94 is insane. Jess Willard was a lot better than you have given him credit for.

There's one guy that I can think of right now that probably should be on the list that isn't. Otto von Porat. He beat guys like Battling Levinsky and nearly beat Paolino Uzcudun in their second fight. I'd take out Bruce Seldon and put von Porat in.

Speaking of Battling Levinsky I just noticed he's not on the list. I was just assuming he would be. He definitely needs to be on the list...maybe as high as the top 50. Take one of the 80s pretenders out or even someone like Rex Layne or Renaldo Snipes and put Levinsky in. 149 career wins over many of the top fighters of his day, including Jim Flynn and Gunboat Smith.[/quote]

Decagon wrote:There's a huge difference between Lou Savarese and the dockworkers that Carnera faced. Anyone can beat dockworkers. Whenever Carnera stepped up, he either lost, or the fight was fixed.

Sorry, but without proof this can only be speculation. As I stated, IMHO Carnera exhibted a moderate amount of skills, which in conjunction with his immense size, allowed him to actually beat several decent opponents. While I agree many of his fights were fixed, to say that all of them against legitimate opponents were fixed (at least those that he won) seems a stretch.

So Joe Jeanette hands Jack Johnson a beating every now and again and he gets a lousy 18 for his troubles? I'm not in particular agreement with some of what you have here but it's a pretty daunting task to rate 100 fighters. Not sure I'd be brave enough to draw up my version.

>>>There's a huge difference between Lou Savarese and the dockworkers that Carnera faced.<<<

Many of his bouts were fixed, but fixed, or not Carnera's record is as good as anyone in history as far as quality fighters faced, whether they were fixed, sure many were, but not all. His record is absolutely loaded with the best heavyweights of the 20s and 30s from around the world, very few did he not fight! Very few fighters can boast of a list of opponents such as that listed below:

Franz Diener
Moise Bouquillon
Marcel Nilles
Young Stribling
Clayton (Big Boy) Peterson
Elzear Rioux
Sully Montgomery
Chuck Wiggins
Neil Clisby
Leon (Bombo) Chevalier
K O Christner
George Godfrey
Ed (Bearcat) Wright
George Cook
Riccardo Bertazzolo
Jack Gross
Jim Maloney
Paolino Uzcudun
Reggie Meen
Bud Gorman
Knute Hansen
Roberto Roberti
Jack Sharkey
King Levinsky
Victorio Campolo
Ernst Gühring
Pierre Charles
Don McCorkindale
Hans Schönrath
Larry Gains
Jack Gross
Hans Birkie
Stanley Poreda
Jack Gagnon
Art Lasky
Ted Sandwina
Jose Santa
Tommy Loughran
Max Baer
Seal Harris
Ray Impelletiere
Joe Louis
Walter Neusel
Ford Smith
Big Boy Brackey
Isidoro Gastanaga
Leroy Haynes
Luigi Musina

No doubt he had several fix jobs, but if all of his wins against the list of fighters above were all fixed then it was not only the most crooked era of heavyweights in history, but also a time where few fighters had any integrity, which I certainly don't believe. I'm sure some of the fighters probably took a dive, but I would bet that it was only a small percentage, at least from those I listed. Carnera was in no way a world beater, but he was better than he often gets credit for!

He had the lucky moment in the Sun with Sharkey which brings him this uneasy credibility. But I have to say I think when you pour over the overwhelming info that is out there, you come away thinking this guy is pure cheese. He does not deserve the positive revisionist's history that seems to be smiling his way.

Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 106

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: Top 100 Heavyweights

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I thought we might as well go the next step. I tried not to show any bias regarding the eras that fighters fought in,their styles, and how much I like or dislike them.
This is based on their "body of work" not just their best or worst few fights.
It does get a lot harder as you go further down the list. For example, there a much bigger difference between #1 and # 30 than #31 and #60.
We have debated the top 10-20 a lot lately, so I thought it would more interesting to discuss guys from 30-100.

If you think someone that wasn't rated should be, also say who shouldn't be in the top 100.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman
4. Jack Johnson
5. Joe Frazier
6. Gene Tunney
7. Larry Holmes
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Evander holyfield
11. Lennox Lewis
12. Sonny Liston
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Mike Tyson
15. James Jeffries
16. Sam Langford
17. Harry Wills
18. Joe Jeanette
19. Sam McVey
20. Ezzard Charles
21. Joe Walcott
22. Ken Norton
23. Floyd Patterson
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. James Corbett
26. Max Baer
27. Max Schmeling
28. Jack Sharkey
29. Michael Moorer
30. Michael Spinks
31. Tony Tucker
32. Buster Douglas
33. John L Sullivan
34. Vitaly Klitscho
35. Hasim Rahman
36. Tommy Burns
37. Ray Mercer
38. Ingemar Johansson
39. Jimmy Ellis
40. Ernie Terrell
41. Zora Folley
42. Eddie Machen
43. Jerry Quarry
44. Chris Byrd
45. Tim Witherspoon
46. Tony Tubbs
47. James Smith
48. Pinklon Thomas
49. Trevor Berbick
50. Michael Dokes
51. Greg Page
52. Mike Weaver
53. Oliver McCall
54. John Tate
55. Frank Bruno
56. Gerrie Coetzee
57. Jimmy Young
58. Peter Jackson
59. Tom Sharkey
60. Joe Choynski
61. Elmer Ray
62. Jim Braddock
63. George Chuvalo
64. Ron Lyle
65. Marvin Hart
66. Ernie Schaaf
67. Ernie Shavers
68. Leotis Martin
69. Donovan Ruddock
70. Oscar Bonavena
71. Cleveland Williams
72. Gerry Cooney
73. Primo Carnera
74. George Godfrey
75. Larry Gains
76. Renaldo Snipes
77. Carl Williams
78. Joe Bugner
79. Buddy Baer
80. David Tua
81. Wladimir Klitschko
82. Paulino Uzcudun
83. Roland La Starza
84. Rex Layne
85. Young Stribling
86. Karl Mildenberger
87. Jess Willard
88. John Ruiz ( Sorry, but I had to put him in here)
89. Leon Spinks
90. Bruce Seldon
91. Fred Fulton
92. Billy Miske
93. Luis Firpo
94. Frank Moran
95. Carl Morris
96. Gunboat Smith
97. Johnny Risko
98. Henry Cooper
99. Tommy Farr
100. Jim Flynn












I cant beleive you would put leon spinks in the top hundred

Frank Bruno above James Braddock? Surely you jest...

so its ok to rank braddock 62, because hes a "one night wonder", but buster douglas deserves 32?..who else did he beat? at least braddock beat some top nothc fighters like max baer john henry lewis and art lasky

Collins2000 wrote:Frank Bruno above James Braddock? Surely you jest...

well jjb only held a world heavyweight title, frank bruno beat oliver mccall though so its all good.ok seriously guys i understand this is hard and i respect you forr making a 100 fighter list but frank bruno was never a good fighter. the guy lost EVERY big fight or important fight of his career, except for a decision over mccall. he lost EVERY big fight...

that includes-

Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson (2times?) i think he fought him in like 88 and 96 before he fought holyfield again.
Bonecrusher smith

thats it. he never beat anyone noteworthy except for oliveral mccall..

im going to apologize thought because i know i could never make a top 100 list. its a good list overrall, but of course the braddock thing will get under my sking

Fireman Jim...

Funny that following the Carnera defeat, Loughran went on to defeat a few good heavyweights, besides, he was only four years older than Carnera, so if Loughran was 97, that would make Carnera what...93?

A comparision beside of Valuev is very unfair for Valuev because has has never fought anyone near the caliber of opponents that Carnera did! Sure Carnera was more freak-show than serious boxer, sure several of his bouts were fixed, but for someone that knew nothing about boxing until around his 20s, to develop into the capable contender that he was, well that's pretty impressive. He had a jab and a right, which looks pretty similar to some of the top heavyweights fighting today. Carnera wasn't the best, no where near it, but he wasn't the worst either and until a fighter like Valuev actually proves his worth against some very capable opponents, then he's sucking hind-teet compared to Carnera!

Ambling Alp

If you think someone that wasn't rated should be, also say who shouldn't be in the top 100.

^ = I think should rate 3-5 spots higher
v = I think should rate 3-5 spots lower


1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman v
4. Jack Johnson vv
5. Joe Frazier vv
6. Gene Tunney vvv
7. Larry Holmes ^
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Evander holyfield v
11. Lennox Lewis
12. Sonny Liston ^
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Mike Tyson
15. James Jeffries ^^
16. Sam Langford
17. Harry Wills v
18. Joe Jeanette v
19. Sam McVey vv
20. Ezzard Charles
21. Joe Walcott
22. Ken Norton ^
23. Floyd Patterson
24. Bob Fitzsimmons ^^
25. James Corbett ^^
26. Max Baer v
27. Max Schmeling
28. Jack Sharkey
29. Michael Moorer
30. Michael Spinks
31. Tony Tucker vv
32. Buster Douglas vvv
33. John L Sullivan ^
34. Vitaly Klitscho ^^
35. Hasim Rahman
36. Tommy Burns
37. Ray Mercer vvv
38. Ingemar Johansson
39. Jimmy Ellis
40. Ernie Terrell
41. Zora Folley
42. Eddie Machen
43. Jerry Quarry
44. Chris Byrd ^^
45. Tim Witherspoon ^^
46. Tony Tubbs
47. James Smith
48. Pinklon Thomas ^
49. Trevor Berbick
50. Michael Dokes
51. Greg Page
52. Mike Weaver v
53. Oliver McCall
54. John Tate
55. Frank Bruno
56. Gerrie Coetzee
57. Jimmy Young ^
58. Peter Jackson ^^^^^^^
59. Tom Sharkey ^^^^
60. Joe Choynski
61. Elmer Ray
62. Jim Braddock vvvvvvvvvv
63. George Chuvalo - Why rate him?
64. Ron Lyle ^^^^^^
65. Marvin Hart
66. Ernie Schaaf
67. Ernie Shavers ^
68. Leotis Martin
69. Donovan Ruddock
70. Oscar Bonavena - Why rate him?
71. Cleveland Williams ^^^^^
72. Gerry Cooney
73. Primo Carnera
74. George Godfrey
75. Larry Gains
76. Renaldo Snipes VVV
77. Carl Williams
78. Joe Bugner
79. Buddy Baer
80. David Tua
81. Wladimir Klitschko ^^^^^^^^
82. Paulino Uzcudun
83. Roland La Starza
84. Rex Layne
85. Young Stribling
86. Karl Mildenberger
87. Jess Willard ^^^^
88. John Ruiz ( Sorry, but I had to put him in here) - Ewwwww
89. Leon Spinks - Why rate him?
90. Bruce Seldon - Why rate him?
91. Fred Fulton
92. Billy Miske - Too small. Why rate him?
93. Luis Firpo
94. Frank Moran
95. Carl Morris
96. Gunboat Smith
97. Johnny Risko
98. Henry Cooper
99. Tommy Farr
100. Jim Flynn - Why rate him?

Nice overall list. I think you can come up with better if you work at it. some names I would look at off the top of my head: Ike I, Corrie Sanders, Tommy Morrison, Gus Ruhlin, Joe Goddard ( Aussie ), Jimmy Bivins, Tommy Gibbons, Denver Ed Martin, and Autro Godoy.

Bugger me! 97!!!... that must make Tommy just about the oldest ever man to challenge for a world title. Still Primo was even older!!! 101!!!... must be all that pasta he used to eat. They don't make em like that any more!...
You're knowledge of the fight game is astounding Decogon.

62. Jim Braddock vvvvvvvvvv

excuse me but thats the dumbest thing ive ever read on this board. braddock should be in the 40's. im sick of everyone calling him a one fight wonder, then they go ahead and rank buster douglas, who was even more of a one fight wonder, at 32. this is garbage and i want to hear someones reasoning. and dont tell me that its because heavyweights of today are better, because then this whole list is nul, because guys like vitali would be top 10.

You know another reasonable take on Braddock is that he was an underaciever until it mattered. In other words he had the tools just didn't get the breaks. When it mattered he came through. That is big, he did not remaind a contender when he had the big shot, he became champion.

His hands letting him down is something Douglas never had to overcome. I'm thinking Braddocks place is much higher that where he is placed on that list. I think Joe Jeanette should probably be in the top 10.

good post boxbuzz..

braddock's obstacles should play a role on his rankings... he fought for 2 different championship titles against 2 great HOF fighters and came out .500. he fought every great light heavyweight of the day and earned himself a championship fight so he must have done something right. he beat a pool of top contenders at the time, to fight for the heavyweight crown, during an era of great boxers. He worked the docks during the depression and found little time for boxing. in a sense he became like reggie strickland... he didnt want to lose, but a fight meant money, even if his hand was really in bad condition.

many of his loses could be related to his broken hand that he often fought with, losing almost all of the fights during that period of time. and not to forget he suffered from a colliflour ear for the rest of his career, after the loughran fight.

the night braddock fought louis, everything was in louis favor. louis was 9 years younger. braddock had essentially left everything he had in the garden ring after he left champion. he had given the last of what he had to give to boxing. Braddock came into the louis fight with arthritis in his right hand and a severely colliflour ear. braddock had his hand numbed before the fight. braddock then went on to know down argueabley the greatest fighter of all time.

i think from what we saw from braddock, its hard to tell. when he was in his prime he accomplished great things. but because of the depression and the broken hand, we never got to see much of his prime.

so lets look at him, the fighter.

Braddock was slow, but fast enough to compete in the heavyweight division and be fine. his speed never lost him a fight that i know of.

braddocks major problem in his career, was the fact he never threw a punch with his left hand. when he returned to fight corn griffin, he had finally let his left hand free, and he never looked back.

Power- braddock had great power. i dont think thats under question?

Chin- braddock had one of the better chins in boxing history. he got KO once, and that was by Joe Louis.

Heart- the only fighter i think that comes close is evander holyfield. now put evander in the depression, hungry kids, no heat or electricity in your house, working the docks 14 hours a day, and see if he has the heart to compete and stage one of the greatest upsets in boxing history.

please judge braddock on who he was as a fighter, his record is not nearly accurate enough. the people who ranked braddock in the 80's or 90's on this list, clearly just look at the mans record and say well he didnt deserve his shto at the title or he was just lucky. braddock deserves to be in the 40's. and i hope you guys understand this and see it too.

Rory McCloskey wrote:good post boxbuzz..

braddock's obstacles should play a role on his rankings... he fought for 2 different championship titles against 2 great HOF fighters and came out .500. he fought every great light heavyweight of the day and earned himself a championship fight so he must have done something right. he beat a pool of top contenders at the time, to fight for the heavyweight crown, during an era of great boxers. He worked the docks during the depression and found little time for boxing. in a sense he became like reggie strickland... he didnt want to lose, but a fight meant money, even if his hand was really in bad condition.

many of his loses could be related to his broken hand that he often fought with, losing almost all of the fights during that period of time. and not to forget he suffered from a colliflour ear for the rest of his career, after the loughran fight.

the night braddock fought louis, everything was in louis favor. louis was 9 years younger. braddock had essentially left everything he had in the garden ring after he left champion. he had given the last of what he had to give to boxing. Braddock came into the louis fight with arthritis in his right hand and a severely colliflour ear. braddock had his hand numbed before the fight. braddock then went on to know down argueabley the greatest fighter of all time.

i think from what we saw from braddock, its hard to tell. when he was in his prime he accomplished great things. but because of the depression and the broken hand, we never got to see much of his prime.

so lets look at him, the fighter.

Braddock was slow, but fast enough to compete in the heavyweight division and be fine. his speed never lost him a fight that i know of.

braddocks major problem in his career, was the fact he never threw a punch with his left hand. when he returned to fight corn griffin, he had finally let his left hand free, and he never looked back.

Power- braddock had great power. i dont think thats under question?

Chin- braddock had one of the better chins in boxing history. he got KO once, and that was by Joe Louis.

Heart- the only fighter i think that comes close is evander holyfield. now put evander in the depression, hungry kids, no heat or electricity in your house, working the docks 14 hours a day, and see if he has the heart to compete and stage one of the greatest upsets in boxing history.

please judge braddock on who he was as a fighter, his record is not nearly accurate enough. the people who ranked braddock in the 80's or 90's on this list, clearly just look at the mans record and say well he didnt deserve his shto at the title or he was just lucky. braddock deserves to be in the 40's. and i hope you guys understand this and see it too.

How did Braddock get on after he retired?. I've read somewhere recently that he was broke by the 60s and died more or less in poverty is this true?...

no no no..braddock became a forgotten hero. He would referee charity events and hometown boxing matches. the nation seemed to forget the man they called their hero.

braddock became GREAT friends with dempsey and tunney and could often be found sitting together at big fights. they were their the night ali whipped frazier in their 1st rematch.

braddock bought a house in north bergan, new jersey with the winnigns from the baer fight, and he would live their for the rest of their lives. Braddock was financially secure until about the mid 50's. he got a job on the docks again in his 50's. My grandpa worked with him and said old jimmy was never asked to do anything, that they just hired him to be their and they just wanted to help the guy out. but jimmy would worked and work, and he always said. "what the hell im just a working man"

jimmy surfaced aagain every now n then n the nation roared and cheered and remembered their hero. then he would soon fade away n noone would remember him. I know that at a heavyweight title fight in the early 60's, they had all the past heavyweight champs come up to the stage. as the announcer got to braddock he paused and asked the ref. who james j braddock was. Its quite sad and it breaks my heart. But braddock never enjoyed beign the center of attention anyway.

as for braddock.. he lived comfortabley in his house until his death. On November 29, 1974 america lost one of the greatest sports heroes our nation has ever seen.

RIP James Walter Braddock

i scored it 9-3... the judges scored it something like 8-4 and 7-5. but frazier was never close to winning that fight.

Rory McCloskey wrote:no no no..braddock became a forgotten hero. He would referee charity events and hometown boxing matches. the nation seemed to forget the man they called their hero.

braddock became GREAT friends with dempsey and tunney and could often be found sitting together at big fights. they were their the night ali whipped frazier in their 1st rematch.

braddock bought a house in north bergan, new jersey with the winnigns from the baer fight, and he would live their for the rest of their lives. Braddock was financially secure until about the mid 50's. he got a job on the docks again in his 50's. My grandpa worked with him and said old jimmy was never asked to do anything, that they just hired him to be their and they just wanted to help the guy out. but jimmy would worked and work, and he always said. "what the hell im just a working man"

jimmy surfaced aagain every now n then n the nation roared and cheered and remembered their hero. then he would soon fade away n noone would remember him. I know that at a heavyweight title fight in the early 60's, they had all the past heavyweight champs come up to the stage. as the announcer got to braddock he paused and asked the ref. who james j braddock was. Its quite sad and it breaks my heart. But braddock never enjoyed beign the center of attention anyway.

as for braddock.. he lived comfortabley in his house until his death. On November 29, 1974 america lost one of the greatest sports heroes our nation has ever seen.

RIP James Walter Braddock

Thanks,