BoxRec

I know it's tough, I have rated mine by styles I like and achivements.

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Mike Tyson
4. Muhammed Ali
5. Joe Louis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Sonny Liston
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Gene Tunney
12. Larry Holmes
13. Evander Holyfield

1) Ali
2)Louis
3)Marciano
4)Dempsey
5)Johnson
6)Frazier
7)Tyson
8)George
9)Holmes
10)Jeffries

my top 10 i do it on overall greatness mainly with some head to head. the only way u can really rank is on overall greatness


1. joe louis
2. muhammad ali
3 rocky marciano
4 jack johnson
5 larry holmes
6 jack dempsey
7 george foreman
8 joe frazier
9 mike tyson
10 sonny liston

Ali, Louis, Marciano, Foreman, Dempsey, Johnson, Frazier, Tyson, Holyfield, Holmes...................

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes

I'm rather shocked that you've rated Jack Dempsey & Johnson higher than Rocky.

I remember reading that the difference between a great ring boxer and a true legend is that a LEGEND, could beat anyone or else always give a tough test.

Whereas the greats nearly always have a "Boggie" man who they just simply can't get the better of...Unlucky or otherwise.

These 2 great fighters both had "Boogie" men...

Jack Dempsey couldn't take Gene Tunney, (long 14 second count or not).

Jack Johnson had a tendency to underestimate the less-accomplished boxers, meaning he kept getting beat to lesser fighters. (Whom he should be flooring routinely)....

Therefore, these 2 (in my eyes) are great fighters but they aint LEGENDS!!!

>>>Jack Dempsey couldn't take Gene Tunney<<<

That was at the end of his career after a lot of inactivity during several previous years...in his prime I think Dempsey would have been all over Tunney and not only put him down, but kept him there. The Dempsey that Tunney faced had no legs left, his former fast hands were slow and he no longer could cut off a ring, but even at that advanced state Dempsey still put Tunney down for a ten count. Dempsey had went through several years of very easy living and he was nowhere near the hard and hungry lion of old! The Dempsey of old at worst would have outpointed Tunney, probably similar to the manner he did against Tommy Gibbons, but even that Dempsey was use to easy street as well!

As far as legends, Dempsey and Johnson are at the top of the list of being legend...Dempsey is almost immortal!

Based on a mix of head-to-head and achievement

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Johnson
3) Ali
4) George Foreman
5) Joe Frazier
6) Jack Dempsey
7) Rocky Marciano
8) Larry Holmes
9) Sonny Liston
10) Jim Jefferies

11) Evander Holyfield
12) Lennox Lewis
13) Mike Tyson
14) Max Schmeling
15) Floyd Patterson

I know were all just pretty much re-arranging the same names but heres my 2 pence worth.

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Johnson
4) Foreman
5) Liston
6) Holmes
7) Marciano
8) Dempsey
9) Jefferies
10) Frazier
11) Tyson
12) Lewis
13) Holyfield
14) Patterson
15) Charles

1. Lewis
2. Ali
3. Marciano
4. Lewis
5. Liston
6. Frazier
7. Foreman
8. Holyfield
9. Johnson
10. Tyson

I know I'll get crucified but I think Lewis is one of the most underated boxers ever. His biggest problem...a lack of more world class fighters and not geting up for fighters who were inferior to him (McCall and Rahman).
I think if he had boxers in the calibre of those on the list to fight we would have seen a truly legendary boxer.

We'll that's your view, but I don't even have Lewis in my top 20, which may be a biut unjust, but #1 he most certainly is not...too many flaws!

Name 20 heavyweights better than him. I can understand not being your number 1. Everyone has their favorite. But not in you top 20? Come on name 20 better than him.

Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns


Like I said, my rating of Lewis may be a bit unjust due to the fact that I could not stand him as a fighter, so no doubt I am a bit bias against him, but it's hard for me to get over the fact that he was knocked out twice against two far lesser fighters while in his prime. It was a result of several rounds of punishment, but one single punch that each fighter landed! I credit him for the wins that he got and the fact that he fought pretty much all the top fighters of his era, but he was for the most part a very boring champion, with the exception of his blowout of Razor Ruddock, which I think was his best fight, and of course the blowouts of Michael Grant, Andrew Golota and Frans Botha, but mostly he was very tentative with the style of jab, straight right and clinch.

Arsenal wrote:1. Lewis
2. Ali
3. Marciano
4. Lewis
5. Liston
6. Frazier
7. Foreman
8. Holyfield
9. Johnson
10. Tyson

You think Lennox is so good he gets two ratings? Seriously though, which is Joe Louis and which is Lennox? If you have Lennox at #4 I would disagree but wouldn't debate it, but if you have him at #1 I would be siding with Barry.

My top ten:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Sonny Liston
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jim Jeffries
10. Rocky Marciano

No Lennox at one. I think you are deluded if you think he was just a jab and straight right fighter. His boxing abilities were excellent. You don't win Olympic Gold if you can't box. Has for his defeats. He got hit twice by guys who were 16 stone plus. At that weight anyone will go down. That shows that he only ever went down twice. Look at the big punchers he went in with: Ruddock, Tyson, Tucker, Mercer, Briggs, Tua etc. They hit him and he took it. The Rahman right hand that hit Lennox would have killed most fighters. With McCall he should never have been stopped. He was up and had his wits about him. He was a young champion and he got caught cold. After some of the beatings I've seen some fighters take to stop the fight after one knockdown after Lewis had never been knocked down before was a little suspious to me. Has you said you were bias against Lennox and some of the fighters on your list wouldn't have gone a round with Lewis. You have Holyfield and Tyson on your list and Lewis dealt with both easily. Tyson is on my list for no other reason than that he dominated for a few years against mediocre opponents but I never really rated the guy. Always found it hard against the decent big guys.

Lewis fought both Holyfield and Tyson when each were 10+ years past their primes...in their primes both take Lewis out within five rounds. The opposition that Lewis has faced is no better than what Tyson went against when he was champion!

As to my list, what fighters don't you think would last a round with Lewis?

In their primes, none of the fighters I listed were ever taken out with only one shot, in fact, I don't think any of them were ever taken out with one shot!

As to Lewis' skills, sure he had very good skills, but his bread and butter was a jab, straight right and clinch as was taught to him by Steward and that was what he used most, which is the same style that you now see Wlad Klitschko trying to use, but a lot less effective than Lewis was. Lewis had a good uppercut and a good hook, but seldom went to those punches!

1- Joe Louis
2- Muhammad Ali
3- Jack Johnson
4- Larry Holmes
5- Sonny Liston
6- George Foreman
7- Rocy Marciano
8- Lennox Lewis
9- Jack Demspey
10- Joe Frazier

Arsenal wrote:No Lennox at one. I think you are deluded if you think he was just a jab and straight right fighter. His boxing abilities were excellent. You don't win Olympic Gold if you can't box. Has for his defeats. He got hit twice by guys who were 16 stone plus. At that weight anyone will go down. That shows that he only ever went down twice. Look at the big punchers he went in with: Ruddock, Tyson, Tucker, Mercer, Briggs, Tua etc. They hit him and he took it. The Rahman right hand that hit Lennox would have killed most fighters. With McCall he should never have been stopped. He was up and had his wits about him. He was a young champion and he got caught cold. After some of the beatings I've seen some fighters take to stop the fight after one knockdown after Lewis had never been knocked down before was a little suspious to me. Has you said you were bias against Lennox and some of the fighters on your list wouldn't have gone a round with Lewis. You have Holyfield and Tyson on your list and Lewis dealt with both easily. Tyson is on my list for no other reason than that he dominated for a few years against mediocre opponents but I never really rated the guy. Always found it hard against the decent big guys.

What about Lennox's "victory" over Ray Mercer. He was getting outjabbed by a smaller guy. Sure Lennox was talented, but he reigned in a weak era and never met his #1 challenger Riddick Bowe, and met a 35 year old Holyfield and a washed up Tyson. Maybe top 10, but no way should Lennox be top 5.

Firstly Bowe bottled it bigtime. Who throws the belt in the bin rather than fight. Secondly name me 5 quality fighters that Tyson fought? He also reigned in a poor time for heavyweight boxing. As soon as someone decent came along he got beat. Lewis fought better fighters than Tyson.

Lewis fought 10 present, past, or future world (WBC, WBA & IBF) champs, Tyson fought 13. They both reigned in rather weak periods in the heavyweight division and the quality of opposition was very, very close with not enough advantage for either fighter in terms of quality. Though Tyson was a lot more devastating in his reign than Lewis was.

As to naming five fighters that Tyson faced, I can name four that Tyson beat that Lewis took on several years later, when they were past their primes, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Tyrell Biggs, Razor Ruddock...and of those four, Ruddock was the only one that Lewis beat in a better fashion than Tyson did. Hell, they fought several of the same fighters and the quality of each was as I said, very, very similar!

This whole "Lewis lost or looked bad b/c he only got 'up' for the big fights' is BS. People say he was out of shape vs McCall, but at 235 he was probably at the absolute PERFECT weight for him . . .more muscled then his 225 days but not as lumbering as 248. He fought like he always did and got wacked.

Lewis also certainly 'got up' against Bruno and Mercer (the latter I think was his best career performance and I think he deserved no more then a draw) and he didn't look too special there. I've seen the English broadcasts of his fights and I understand why some Englishmen are so biased towards him. Your broadcasters built up his often average american opponents even more then Don King did . . .especially Tyson, who in England still seemed to hold the same boxing status in the late 90s as he did in the States in the late 80s. Briggs, Botha, Grant, Rahman etc. . . . .even the 'biased' American boxing media saw that these were weak challengers in a weak era.

barry wrote:We'll that's your view, but I don't even have Lewis in my top 20, which may be a biut unjust, but #1 he most certainly is not...too many flaws!

i never thought much of him anyway. he did have several flaws, 1 being lack of heart and concentration IMO. but he got KO bye 2 less then "great" fighters. he beat up on one of the easiest heavytweight divisions ever.

barry what do u base ur heavyweight rankinbgs on??? all time greatness or head to head.

like u rate dempsey 3, and marciano 5, do u think they would beat most of the heavyweights in history?

also where do u rank jersey joe walcott, i see he was not in ur top 20. i know he he didnt have the best record, but when he was at his best he was a very formidable fighter 46-52 years. he lossed 9 times, but 6 of those lossed were against louis, charles, marciano and the losses to maxim, charles, and ray he avenged. he looked like a master boxer with amazing moves on film.

barry wrote:Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns


Like I said, my rating of Lewis may be a bit unjust due to the fact that I could not stand him as a fighter, so no doubt I am a bit bias against him, but it's hard for me to get over the fact that he was knocked out twice against two far lesser fighters while in his prime. It was a result of several rounds of punishment, but one single punch that each fighter landed! I credit him for the wins that he got and the fact that he fought pretty much all the top fighters of his era, but he was for the most part a very boring champion, with the exception of his blowout of Razor Ruddock, which I think was his best fight, and of course the blowouts of Michael Grant, Andrew Golota and Frans Botha, but mostly he was very tentative with the style of jab, straight right and clinch.

Interesting calls by Barry. Langford was a whale of a fighter for sure. Perhaps he is a top 15 all time guy. Good call.

The picks that I'd like more insight from Barry are, Tyson Baer, and Burns.

Tyson never beat a great fighter. He lost both of his legacy fights to Holyfield and Lewis. He was upset along the way by Douglas. I think Tyson deserves a spot in the top 20, but why so high at #6? And why rate Holyfield 11 spots down the ladder from Tyson?

Baer lost too often. He was an under achiever.

Burns was a 5'7" bulldog of a fighter, but he could not hope to match up vs bigger skilled heavyweights. Burns was but a toy in the hands of Jack Johnson. Who did Burns beat to get into the top 20? The only serious scribe who rates Burns highly ( In the top ten ) is Mr. Gilbert Odd. I have read some of Odd’s work. He’s off his rocker.

I think Lewis deserves a spot in the top 20.

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Marciano
4.Holmes
5.Lewis
6.Liston
7.Foreman
8.Tyson
9.Frazier
10.Holyfeild

11.Jack dempsey
12.Max Schmelling
13.Jack Johson
14.James Toney