BoxRec

Tommorrow there is a great show on from 6-11/12 on espn classics. Great boxing minds such as bert sugar will be discussing there top 10 heavyweights of all time, and there analysis of the careers. i cant wait! it should be a truly great show.

ill let you guys know what the lists are if you dont watch it.


thats 6 PM eastern american time.

Bert Sugar a great boxing mind? Excuse me while I chunder.

aw cmon bert sugar's great...how about brian kenny? he any better?

Rory McCloskey wrote:aw cmon bert sugar's great...how about brian kenny? he any better?

Neither are great boxing minds. Sugar is an old fraud who just repeats the same crap like a parrot.

I want to see him without that hat on. What sort of boofhead wears a hat indoors all the time?

i love bert sugar... surely most people would agree that he is A great boxing mind no? or am i alone

Hey Collins...you from the land down under?

Rory McCloskey wrote: i love bert sugar... surely most people would agree that he is A great boxing mind no? or am i alone

He is a moron and gets lots of his facts wrong. Just one example: he said Larry Holmes beat Ken Norton for the vacant WBC title. Not true. Ken Norton was awared the WBC title after beating Jimmy Young in '77. I didn't even have to look that up on BoxRec, it is just something known by people familiar with Holmes and Norton. Since he had Larry Holmes at # 10, he should get his facts straight.

Someone said it earlier. Bert Sugar's favorite sport is not even boxing. It is baseball. Nobody was needed in baseball so he went to another sport. What kind of an idiot has an unlit cigar in his hand all the time anyway?

Rory,
ESPN has been running that program all Thanksgiving Day Weekend. This is about the 5th or 8th time they have shown it.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36104
http://p068.ezboard.com/fcyberboxingzon ... 1826.topic

Collins2000 wrote:

Rory McCloskey wrote:aw cmon bert sugar's great...how about brian kenny? he any better?

Neither are great boxing minds. Sugar is an old fraud who just repeats the same crap like a parrot.

I want to see him without that hat on. What sort of boofhead wears a hat indoors all the time?

The same sort of boofhead that constantly keep a cigar in his mouth that isnt even lit!!

Rory McCloskey wrote: i love bert sugar... surely most people would agree that he is A great boxing mind no? or am i alone

I think you are alone on that one Rory.

The fact that he only has Holmes at 10 say it all about Sugar, ...not quite the expert he tries to make out... how can you have Holmes at just 10?... crazy...

silkov wrote:The fact that he only has Holmes at 10 say it all about Sugar, ...not quite the expert he tries to make out... how can you have Holmes at just 10?... crazy...

yeah, to have Charles ahead of him seems a bit of a stretch. Id put Holmes in the 6 or 7 range. also Id switch Marciano and Tuney, hell Id put Marciano infront of Dempsy too.

sockdollanger wrote:

silkov wrote:The fact that he only has Holmes at 10 say it all about Sugar, ...not quite the expert he tries to make out... how can you have Holmes at just 10?... crazy...

yeah, to have Charles ahead of him seems a bit of a stretch. Id put Holmes in the 6 or 7 range. also Id switch Marciano and Tuney, hell Id put Marciano infront of Dempsy too.

I'd put Holmes at 2 or 3 personally......

silkov wrote:

sockdollanger wrote:

silkov wrote:The fact that he only has Holmes at 10 say it all about Sugar, ...not quite the expert he tries to make out... how can you have Holmes at just 10?... crazy...

yeah, to have Charles ahead of him seems a bit of a stretch. Id put Holmes in the 6 or 7 range. also Id switch Marciano and Tuney, hell Id put Marciano infront of Dempsy too.

I'd put Holmes at 2 or 3 personally......

Pete, I'd have Larry at #3.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes

I think Holmes pips Louis, I rate them....

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Foreman
....................nice to see we agree on something.. 8) . almost!

In the old times this is where Terap would burst in and spill his guts about how Bert Sugar and his cronies dilapidated Ring Magazine, and how poor Nat Fleischer was turning in his grave, etc..etc...

silkov wrote:I think Holmes pips Louis, I rate them....

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Foreman
....................nice to see we agree on something.. 8) . almost!

how anyone coul rate holmes over louis is beyong me. i put holmes at 8. sure he was a long tenured champ, but against who????

louis- nova, schmelling, braddock, baer, baer, ezzard, jersey joe

marciano- moore, ezzard, jersey joe


this is off the top of my head.. i dont think you can compare holmes to marciano, let alone LOUIS. are you kidding me?

holmes is an all-time great ther is not doubt to that and i still have him at 8/9, but he was lucky enough to have come in between the great 70's and the pretty good lewis/holyfield/tyson bunch

louis defintley catches and knocks out holmes. holmes throughout his career was a sucker for right hands and was way to vunerable against big punchers not to get caguht by a guy like louis.




the best fighter holmes ever beat was norton

louis beat walcott, baer, schmeling all 3 equal to or better than norton


IMO baer knocks out norton early
- walcott outboxes norton to decision

- i think norton would decision schmeling but it would be close




sure holmes faced very solid depth, defitnley no question. but he didnt beat enough great fighters, it wasnt his fault though there were none at the time besides norton. everyone else was in the middle.


i will give holmes a lot of credit for beating some good to very good heavyweights, more than other champs. i mean berbick, shavers, witherspoon, cooney, mercer, snipes, bonecrusher, weaver were all good to very good heavyweights. thats a very solid list of depth.

i would have liked to see holmes fight dokes, coatzee, thomas, or page but it didnt happen.

but one thing that hurts holmes was he never unified and fought far too many journeyman or 2nd rate fighters . out of holmes 20 title defenses, less than 10 were against top contenders. so the majority of the time holmes was padding his record.

Holmes fought well into the Holyfield and Lewis era. I don't see why these two would necessarily pose any problem for a young Holmes.

they wouldnt

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:louis defintley catches and knocks out holmes. holmes throughout his career was a sucker for right hands and was way to vunerable against big punchers not to get caguht by a guy like louis.




the best fighter holmes ever beat was norton

louis beat walcott, baer, schmeling all 3 equal to or better than norton


IMO baer knocks out norton early
- walcott outboxes norton to decision

- i think norton would decision schmeling but it would be close




sure holmes faced very solid depth, defitnley no question. but he didnt beat enough great fighters, it wasnt his fault though there were none at the time besides norton. everyone else was in the middle.


i will give holmes a lot of credit for beating some good to very good heavyweights, more than other champs. i mean berbick, shavers, witherspoon, cooney, mercer, snipes, bonecrusher, weaver were all good to very good heavyweights. thats a very solid list of depth.

i would have liked to see holmes fight dokes, coatzee, thomas, or page but it didnt happen.

but one thing that hurts holmes was he never unified and fought far too many journeyman or 2nd rate fighters . out of holmes 20 title defenses, less than 10 were against top contenders. so the majority of the time holmes was padding his record.

The problem was they all lost at critical times.

For instance, some people say Holmes ducked Page. But it wasn't the case.

Page lost to Berbick on the undercard to Holmes - Cooney when he was basically being showcased as next in line for a shot. Holmes had already beaten Berbick winning every round on one judges card.

Page later lost to Witherspoon after he'd worked his way back into the picture. Holmes had already beaten Witherspoon albeit only just.

Page then lost to David Bey. That really put Greg out of the picture. Bey got a shot at Holmes as a result of this win and he was stopped in 10.

Had Page been able to beat Berbick or Witherspoon he'd certainly have got his shot. The myth of Holmes ducking him is just that. A myth.

Rory McCloskey wrote:

silkov wrote:I think Holmes pips Louis, I rate them....

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Foreman
....................nice to see we agree on something.. 8) . almost!

how anyone coul rate holmes over louis is beyong me. i put holmes at 8. sure he was a long tenured champ, but against who????

the fact that you think so little of Holmes opposition says more about you Rory than it does about Holmes... it just shows a complete lack of knowledge to be blunt. Holmes had the best opposition after Ali and thats a fact. Try watching his fights before you judge... I doubt you've seen any of his world title bouts.

silkov wrote:

Rory McCloskey wrote:

silkov wrote:I think Holmes pips Louis, I rate them....

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Foreman
....................nice to see we agree on something.. 8) . almost!

how anyone coul rate holmes over louis is beyong me. i put holmes at 8. sure he was a long tenured champ, but against who????

the fact that you think so little of Holmes opposition says more about you Rory than it does about Holmes... it just shows a complete lack of knowledge to be blunt. Holmes had the best opposition after Ali and thats a fact. Try watching his fights before you judge... I doubt you've seen any of his world title bouts.

I think there are a few question marks over Larry at the end of his reign when he wanted that 50-0. Thomas and a Witherspoon rematch were the fights we wanted to see. I thought the Spinks match was a joke when it was announced which shows how much I know . When you consider that years later an even older and slower Larry took it to Mercer and others it makes you realise how well Spinks did no matter how you score the 2 fights.

Anyway, in his prime Holmes ducked nobody. There were a lot of good HWs around that he fought but no real great ones. If a guy could have come along and held the WBA title for more than 5 minutes then a bigger fight could have been promoted. Even so can anyone really imagine Dokes beating Holmes?

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote:

Rory McCloskey wrote:
how anyone coul rate holmes over louis is beyong me. i put holmes at 8. sure he was a long tenured champ, but against who????

the fact that you think so little of Holmes opposition says more about you Rory than it does about Holmes... it just shows a complete lack of knowledge to be blunt. Holmes had the best opposition after Ali and thats a fact. Try watching his fights before you judge... I doubt you've seen any of his world title bouts.

I think there are a few question marks over Larry at the end of his reign when he wanted that 50-0. Thomas and a Witherspoon rematch were the fights we wanted to see. I thought the Spinks match was a joke when it was announced which shows how much I know . When you consider that years later an even older and slower Larry took it to Mercer and others it makes you realise how well Spinks did no matter how you score the 2 fights.

Anyway, in his prime Holmes ducked nobody. There were a lot of good HWs around that he fought but no real great ones. If a guy could have come along and held the WBA title for more than 5 minutes then a bigger fight could have been promoted. Even so can anyone really imagine Dokes beating Holmes?

The Spinks match was far from a joke because Mike was a brilliant boxer and Holmes was on the wane. I'm not trying to be big-headed (some will say I don't have to try!) but I actually won a bet on Spinks beating Holmes. He was just so shifty and that was what Holmes didn't need at that stage as he'd slowed a great deal. He was robbed in the rematch though. Holmes never ducked anyone.... he was to fight Page but he lost to Bey so Holmes fought Bey instaed. Berbick beat Thomas and Holmes had already beat Berbick. Dokes wouldn't have had the stamina to beat Larry. The way Larry came back in the 90s and gave Holifield and Mccall decent fights and beat Mercer should tell people what a great fighter he was to be able to hang in there with those guys at their peaks when he was already in his 40s....
The quality of Holmes opposition is second only to Ali's...