BoxRec

Is it true that Joe Frazier was defeated by wrestler Carlos Colon in a mixed match in 1984 in South America? I don't recall any newspaper coverage of this, unlike the Ali-Inoki match in 1976.True, Frazier was no longer an active boxer in 1984, but I would think that Frazier would have warranted publicity if he really engaged in this type of match.

I don't remember that. I do believe that both Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbeck lost to wrestlers a few years ago in Japan. What usually happens in events like this is that a older, washed up, out of shape fighter gets a good payday to fight in a fight that favors the other style and they get beat.
A few years ago, one of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guys challenged Roy Jones. The money was big for the BJJ guy, and nothing for Jones. Jones told him that he wouldn't fight in a match that favored the BJJ man's style. Jones told him that if he wanted to get together in a parking lot with no rules he was willing to do it for free. The BJJ guy dropped the challenge.

I saw Spinks' defeat at the hands of Antonio Inoki as well as Inoki's win aganst Karl Mildenberger.I also saw Duran lose to a wrestler in Japan named Funaki.Saad Muhammad also got beat in Japan against a wrestler.Wepner lost to Andre The Giant at shea stadium in 1976.The FRazier-Colon match was said to be held in a baseball stadium,in Venezuela,and Frazier was pinned in round 5 after scoring 2 first round knockdowns-I think It was a wrestlig magazine that I got my details from, but I'm not positive.A mixed match usually bans eye gouging, biting and sometimes groin blows and kicks.Unless Roy Jones is an expert in these tactics, I truly believe that he would be at a great disadvantage on the street against a Jiu-Jitsu expert.A match in a ring with a ref would be better for Jones-I love boxing but a world class grappler would beat a world class boxer in the vast majority of cases.

Brooklyn, most people would go along with your theory, that a good grappler would beat a good boxer most of the time. I'm not sure, because of a guy named Igor Vovchancin(sp) who was at one time the top Mixed Martial Arts fighter. Igor was about 5-8, 230, and could punch a little bit. He looked to have the boxing skills of a 4 round prelim fighter. His ground skills were limited, but he was known as an "anti-grappler" because he knew how to get back to his feet after being taken down. He could then punish the grapplers again with his stand up skills. I believe that if Mike Tyson or Roy Jones or someone similar would work with a ground fight specialist for 2-3 months, learn what ground fighters are trying to do, and how to escape when taken down, without leaving themselves open for a submission, they would be the most lethal Mixed Martial Arts fighter ever. If Igor could knock people out, Tyson would decapitate them.
Of course, this is all speculation, no world class boxer is going to fight a MMA fight for peanuts. The money isn't there to entice a well conditioned, world class fighter to fight. Such a fight has never happened unless one considers the Inoki - Ali "fight". I don't know if that was legit or not, but if it was, Inoki was afraid to take a chance and take Ali down. Inoki crab crawled around kicking at Ali's legs the whole time.
I just don't buy the theory yet, about grapplers being superior. They may be, but all of the previous mixed fights have featured well conditioned, motivated grapplers against aging, out of shape, over the hill boxers. When a grappler easily beats a Tyson or Jones I'll be convinced.

I agree completely with your assertion that a top boxer,with a few months of grappling training with an expert instructor, would be an awesome fighting machine.However, I really don't believe that a top boxer without grappling training could avoid being taken down and defeated.I also think that a pro boxer would defeat any stand up martial artist-karate,tae kwon do, hapkido, etc.The stand up martial artist would have only three chances-a groin kick or a kick to the knee or tibia.In a mixed match, the boxer would have had time to train how to avoid these kicks.In an impromptu street fight, the martial artist would have a chance to land one of these kicks-albeit a very slim chance.Pro boxer Sam Mcvey KO'd jiu-jitsu expert Tano Matsuda in 10 seconds on Dec.31,1908.Bantamweght Packey O'gatty KO'd jiu-jitsu expert Shimakado in less than 4 seconds on 1-12-28 in Japan.I don't know if these two martial artists were experts in stand-up jiu jitsu or in ground fighting jiu-jitsu.A jiu-jitsu instructor explained to me that there are two styles of jiu-jitsu-one does not involve any grappling.

Brooklyn, I'm not sure, but didn't Jack Dempsey knock out a wrestler or some type grappler too? It seems that I read something about it one time.

Dempsey did KO wrestler Cowboy Luttrell but it was not in a mixed match-it was a boxing match in 1940. I've seen part of it on tape. Also, in the Dempsey biography A Flame Of Pure Fire, a story is related about Demsey being forced to wrestle a wrestler before he became champ-evidently, Demsey thought the match would be a boxing match but was informed after arriving in the small town that he would have to wrestle.Dempsey lost, but was not allowed to punch-a condition of the match that Dempsey blamed for his defeat.I'm not certain if Dempsey ever engaged in a mixed match, but check out CBZ for more info on this.I have contacted some pro wrestig historians in an effort to gain more details about the Frazier-Colon bout and I will post whatever details I can gather.

I'm still searching my files for Frazier-Colon article. I did come across another mixed match-JerseyJoe Walcott versus Nature Boy Buddy Rogers on October 7, 1959 at The Forum in Montreal Canada.I don't have a result for this match.Also, two of Achie Moore's KO victims are described by the Pro Wrestling Illustrated Almanac as wrestlers:Roy Shire(9-8-56) and Mike Dibiase(3-15-63).I don't think that these were mixed matces. The Frazier-Colon article might have appeared i an old edition of this almanac.

Just read the Archie Moore info about the wrestlers. "Iron" Mike Dibiase was a well-known pro wrestler of the 50's and 60's. Believe he was champ for a while. By 1963, he was no "spring chicken". I would question the authenticity of this as a legit bout. I guess if you are licensed its a pro bout. I do believe a footnote is in order "Dibiase Professional wrestler and his alias "Iron Mike" put in the Name database. This is personal visual confirmation from seeing numerous wrestling contests on the boob tube.

Dempsey's wrestling bout appears on the CBZ --
1915
23 Oct Andy Malloy Montrose, CO KO3
-- loses wrestling match to "Big Ed" in Olathe, CO

19 Nov George Copelin Cripple Creek, CO KO7

His EXHIBITION bouts against wrestlers are also on the CBZ record

Walcot, Joey Maxim, Jack Johnson, Carnera, Joe Louis, Chuck Wepner, Duran, Leon Spinks, and many many others fought wrestlers or engaged in wrestling matches.

Guess what -- wrestling is fake!

Oh Mike I'm crushed. Next you'll tell me their is no Santa Claus and all boxing matches have been and are on the up and up. I cast my vote for Don King-world boxing commissioner. I heard a rumor the reason Tyson bit Holyfield was because he thought his ears were Cauliflower.

the problem with boxer v wrestler matches is that the boxer has to wear his gloves, thus putting him a great disagdvantage.

if the boxer was allowed to go in without his gloves, he'd knockout the wrestler, in my opinion.

I received a letter from a wrestling historian who tells me that Jersey Joe Walcott and Wrestler Lou Thesz had two matches-one in Tampa and one in Memphis.According to a interview with Thesz, the match in Memphis was a work(Fake)while the bout in Tampa was a legitimate match with Thesz winning.Still searching for Colon-Frazier information

Roberto Duran also fought a MMA match a few years ago. He lost by armbar to Masa Funaki. Of course, Duran was past his prime, and out of his element. Funaki seemed to have at least fifty pounds of lean muscle mass on Duran.

I saw the Duran-Funaki match. Duran dropped Funaki for a nine count with a body shot before he was defeated.Duran was said to have weighed 218-he sure looked it.I'm not sure of how good of a grappler Funaki is, but I think that a younger, lighter Duran would have KO'd Funaki for certain.

Funaki was one of the top grapplers in Japan, a King of Pancrase. He, within the last two years fought the best of the Gracie family(Rickson)and although he was considered over the hill, he made it a tough fight. If Duran dropped him, just imagine what Tyson would do to him. Funaki weighs about 220 in good shape. If a fat out of shape, old Duran did that well with someone that highly regarded in grappling, a well conditioned, motivated boxer should win easily.

The rules of the Funaki-Duran match were unclear to me.Commentary was in Japanese.In the first round, Funaki took Duran down in the center of the ring-after a few seconds on the mat, the referee made the both of them get up and start fighting again.I thought Funaki would end the match when he took Duran down that first time.Nevertheless, if Funaki was really on the same par with grapplers like the Gracies, Lou Thesz, Shamrock and Gene LeBell, then I would have to say that a great boxer in his prime-Tyson, Roy Jones, Duran-would beat a great grappler in a mixed match.I was under the incorrect impression that Funaki was not in the same class with the Gracies, et al.

Funaki is past his prime now, but he was Ken Shamrock's instructor/mentor in Japan. At one time, in the mid 1990s, Funaki was considered one of the best.

Funaki was a student of Karl Gotch. At one time, he was considered the greatest grappler in Japan. That was before injuries caught up with him. He's been pro wrestling since he was 15.

Duran looks flabby at 160. Just imagine how much muscle Funaki had on him. Funaki also had another unfair advantage. He's worked with boxers before. It's obvious that was the first time Duran ever worked with a grappler.

Sorry i know everones gonna hate me as i'm in a BOXING forum, but in a real no holds barred match, gloves or no gloves, the boxer wouldn't really stand much of a chance. A couple of people have said that a boxer with a few months Grappling training would be the most exellent fighter ever which is sooooo wrong a few years maybe. I'm not saying that a top boxer would not win a fight against a top MMA, but their only chance of winning would be to get a Standing punch to the head in, which any MMA worth his salt would not let happen. I have trained for some years in both disciplines and styles like Vale Tudo and B JuJitsu are so much more rounded.

I know one of the Gracie's challenged Joe Louis years ago, his son, Royce challenged Tyson a few years back. Both Gracie's challenges were ignored but so where Louis and Tyson's challenge of a boxing match to them. It's simple whoever fights on their terms is going to have the advantage. In a boxing match I'd go with the boxer, in a UFC fight I'd go with the UFC fighter. In a "street" fight I'd go with the guy who's style resembles what I have seen in most street fights I have witnessed, and that would be the boxer. A few quick shots to the head and most fights are over. How many times do you see people grappling in a street fight, really?

Other obscure boxing champions that were involved in mixed martial arts fights are former IBF cruiserweight champion James Warring and former WBC Bantamweight champ Victor Rabanales

Does anyone know which wrestler/rassler Saad fought and in what year?

I can't say for certain that all of the boxer vs wrestler matches are worked, but the great majority of them are. I managed Spinks, so I can tell you with absolute authority that the outcome of his match with Inoki was predetermined. In fact, Leon was scared to go up for the suplex, never having tried it before. Duran's match was a work also, as were James Warring's. I suspect strongly that Dempsey vs Luttrell was worked, but that Jack actually got a little carried away. Thesz's matches with Walcott were also staged, although. of course. Lou was a tremendous shooter.

I would have to agree that nearly all of the Boxer vs. Wrestler matches were "a work", with possible exceptions in the early 1900's before wrestling matches became predetermined. Going into a match with a wrestler who can use his entire body as weapon, and going into the ring as a boxer with only gloved fists for protection would be very dangerous and unfair for the boxer.