BoxRec

something i do not know too much about.


did these guys get along?


because i have heard several of different dempsey quotes about marciano. one states how marciano was nothing and would have got killed in his day, and another states dempsey said marciano was the hardest hitter in heavyweight history and etc


did dempsey like rocky? visa versa. because jack could have become somewhat jealous in a way for marciano stealing his thunder. all of a sudden marciano comes along, and he was the most popular white heavyweight champion since dempsey and not only that he was a huge puncher and exciting brawler like demsey who pleased the crowd and ruled his era. marciano was also viewed as an all time great.

so all these things marciano did, how did dempsey react? did he talk badly of marciano? did both get along with eachother?

Dempsey, it seems, could never make up his mind about Marciano. One day he praised his accomplishments, the next day he would dismiss them.

According to the bio on Rocky by Everett Skehan, Dempsey brought in one of is heavyweight prospects to spar with Marciano, believing that Marciano would be perfect for his boy to use as target practise. This was early in Marciano's career and nobody was tipping him to be the next great champ.
Anyway, Dempsey's boy got flattened in a hurry and the Manassa Mauler walked out of the gym as much in disgust as in disbelief. Dempsey's boy never made it big, while Marciano certainly did.

I believe Dempsey had a dislike for Rocky because he kept proving the old man wrong. After all, as one of the sports most beloved and elder statesmen, Dempsey opinion of a big fight was often made public.

But it's important to keep in mind that the high rating that Marciano enjoys today was not the case in the 1950s. The lack of a great white heavyweight champion since h imand Rocky early death has no doubt boosted his all time standing. While he was underrated in his time, I feel he is slightly overrated today.
This does not mean that I don't think he was a great heavyweight.
Remember that last sentence before you rip me.

-KOKid-

But it's important to keep in mind that the high rating that Marciano enjoys today was not the case in the 1950s

so perfect response, he was not thought of highly and didnt get as much respect as he deserves now.


he certainly got a lot more respect in his late years of title than in his pre title run.



one of the reasons was boxing wasnt followed by closely as in 20s, where it was hugely popular and historians loved to praise that time. but in rockys era the contenders were hardly looked at .Marciano's era is just recent enough that boxing historians don't spend hours and hours paging through magazines and newspapers from the time and learning about the various contenders of the era, but just long enough ago that there aren't many fans who were actually around at the time and who actually followed the era. This way, it's in a pocket so that everyone assumes that the top fighters of the time, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, and Moore(there were many other major fighters but these are just the marquis names) were only on top because there were no good contenders, which just isn't true. Charles, Walcott, and Moore were all older than Marciano, so that it's looked at as if there were no good contenders and the only good champions were all old and small and therefore Maricano never beat anyone. This is just a huge misconception that comes from the fact that there is almost no one currently alive who is very knowledgeable about this particular era.

The historians are all studying the 1920's and 30's or earlier, and the fans are mainly from the generation that grew up with the Alis, Fraziers and Foremans or sooner, so that the '70s contenders and '20s contenders as well at that are highly regarded by their followers and those are thought of as strong eras, but the contenders who came from the '50s are just names on Marciano's record as far as just about anyone is concerned. I think people do tend to look at the 20's in a more favorable light than other eras. This is not to say I'm some completely objective sage, there tend to be double-standards that I think come just from perspective on the era and not necessarily blind hate at all. If a contender from the 20's has a mediocre record, then the opinion is that the guy only had a mediocre record because he fought such good opposition, but if a contender from the 50's has a mediocre record, then clearly he was a bum and was only a contender because the era was so weak.
See what I'm saying? The way it's looked at is completely different and leads to double standards

While he was underrated in his time, I feel he is slightly overrated today.

he was defintley underated in his time.


as long as u keep him in ur top 10, i dont feel ur overating him because i seem to see him in everyones top 10 list, but usually around 4-8 spots.


do u rate him in top 10 KO kid?

Remember that last sentence before you rip me

look u know me, i may love the rock and defend him alot by i always back up my statements with sources and facts. I am not a blind bias person, and i dont think ur a hater.


as long as u have him in top 10, i wont feel ur underating him

Good points, Blockbuster.
Actually, I feel Marciano gets an unfair rap about his opposition these days.

Walcott was a late bloomer and in his prime when he fought Rocky. His winning or at leat competitive streak against top 10 rated heavies was better than any other time of his career going into the Rocky fight.

Charles was still very good when he fought Marciano and could was probably one of the toughest matched fighters of all time. By no means a pushover.

Moore was the champ at 175 and the top man at heavy, having beaten several of the top 10 contenders of that era. Moore held the 175 lbs title for another seven years(!) after Rocky and still beat an occasional top notcher at heavy.

Louis, though obviously well past his best was still rated in the top 10 after beating fellow top 10-er, Lee Savold. For the Rocky fight Louis was coming off a victory against Jimmy Bivins. Take a look at Bivins' record and anyone will see that he mixed in the very highest calibre of opposition.

Let's not forget that Rocky not only beat his opponents, he pracitcally ended their careers. Take a look at how Ezzard Charles looke atfer their first competitive fight. His whole damn head was swollen like a balloon and he was never ever the same again despite fighting another 20+ fights. Outside of Arhie Moore, no one who ever fought Rocky wa ever the same. I never sw anyone inflict so much damage on his opponents than Marciano. He rearranged peoples faces, a murderous puncher.

As for my rating of Marciano, I have him at no. 10.
Here is my top 15 list:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Sonny Liston
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. James Jeffries
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Lennox Lewis
13. Mike Tyson
14. Harry Wills
15. Max Schmeling

The critera I use for rating a fighter are as follows:
- Quality of opposition
- Titles (lineal) won and defended (I don't put too much into this as some of boxing's best never got a titleshot)
- Success in different weightdivisions or (for heavies) dominance in weightclass.
- Longevity (for how many years/fights a fighter was good)

-KOKid-

Good points, Blockbuster.
Actually, I feel Marciano gets an unfair rap about his opposition these days.

Walcott was a late bloomer and in his prime when he fought Rocky. His winning or at leat competitive streak against top 10 rated heavies was better than any other time of his career going into the Rocky fight.

Charles was still very good when he fought Marciano and could was probably one of the toughest matched fighters of all time. By no means a pushover.

Moore was the champ at 175 and the top man at heavy, having beaten several of the top 10 contenders of that era. Moore held the 175 lbs title for another seven years(!) after Rocky and still beat an occasional top notcher at heavy.

Louis, though obviously well past his best was still rated in the top 10 after beating fellow top 10-er, Lee Savold. For the Rocky fight Louis was coming off a victory against Jimmy Bivins. Take a look at Bivins' record and anyone will see that he mixed in the very highest calibre of opposition.

Let's not forget that Rocky not only beat his opponents, he pracitcally ended their careers. Take a look at how Ezzard Charles looke atfer their first competitive fight. His whole damn head was swollen like a balloon and he was never ever the same again despite fighting another 20+ fights. Outside of Arhie Moore, no one who ever fought Rocky wa ever the same. I never sw anyone inflict so much damage on his opponents than Marciano. He rearranged peoples faces, a murderous puncher.

excellent points all around KO kid, im quite impressed u realized how rocky ruined opponents. people fail to realize that sometimes. look at rockys opponents records before they fought rocky, then look at them after, rocky's style was made to ruin fighters.

- a freind of my boxing expert IMO joe rein who was around the scene in the 40s and 50s decsribed how marcianos style totally took the life out of opponents and drained them from wanting to fight.

heres what poster "john garfield" aka joe rein had to say about marciano



"rocky marciano: Rocky epitomized the intangibles -- 90% of his effectiveness was below the surface. When some one in the gym, or in a fight, peppered him and outsped him -- made him look like a rank amateur -- they returned to their corner more and more shellshocked and disipirited every round. Until Rocky established his will and turned the direction of the fight.

He was a ham-&-egger against most half-decent boxers in the gym...and looked like the Pillsbury Doughboy in all the layers of sweat clothes he wore. The 16-ounce gloves looked like pillows on his short arms.Seeing him before the bell rang, he gave no hint of being any kind of a fighter -- let alone world class -- more like a catcher to hone somebody else's tools. But every guy who looked like he boxed rings around him -- pinned his ears back -- never missed him with jabs -- came out of the ring looking like he dropped from a 10-story building and landed flat-footed.

Rocky's cuffing, pawing, mauling, grazing shots, flicks to the sides when he was tied-up on the inside, impacted them like they'd been hit by a car repeatedly. From ringside, the only evidence was a grimace, an "OOPH!" and a quiver.Every sparring partner who looked sensational against him said the same thing exiting the ring: They hurt all over.
All the stories about his inhuman training, if anything, were understated. But in my lifetime, I've seen others train fanatically. It was his intensity from bell-to-bell, as a punching machine, that made the difference.The few times he was down, it was largely bad balance. But even stung and down, few make mention: the moment his gloves were wiped, he punched just as hard, was just as dangerous to KO with either hand. Most guys with heart punch back in desperation, to re-group, but without the same steam. He lost no zip. Off a form chart, any number of guys, over the years, come to mind who should've had his number, but doing it in the ring would've been a sobering experience "- Joe Rein( who saw marciano in the gym)





- very Interesting view from an unbias veiwer.















- i have no problem at all with ur rankings,


- nice to see dempsey get props as he is often overlooked and underated these days compared to the days of the past. people tend to shrug off his opposition like they werent legite fighters and would get smoked in other eras, but when you look deeper into his opponents u would realize most of them were very very good fighters. He also beat a lot of skilled big men. i rate dempsey around 5th and im glad to see him get the recognition he deserves.

Rein's viewis shared by eveyone who ever saw Marciano fight.
One of Rocky's opponents, I forget whom, said that fighting Marciano was like "fighting a steamroller with boxing gloves. If you go towards him he flattens you at once, if you move away he flattens you a little later. Either way he rolls over and flattens you."
It's a good comparison. No fighter who ever went toe to toe with Rocky ever had a chance. Only good definsive fighters did fairly well before losing either by late KO or points.

All those who say Marciano was not a good fighter of course never fought him and really couldn't know. He may have looked flawed and clumsy, but nobody ever managed to capitalize on these weaknesses.
All-time greats like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott sure tried and all took an awful beating for failing.
Rocky was special, no doubt about that.

-KOKid-