BoxRec

I know some of you might scoff at the mere idea of Floyd possibly becoming a top 5 all-time great fighter, and think it will never happen, but if it did what would Floyd have to do, who would he have to fight (be specific) to be considered a top 5 all time great?

He has to defeat Judah, Margarito,Cotto, and Hatton.

Decagon wrote:

borinken25 wrote:He has to defeat Judah, Margarito,Cotto, and Hatton.

Shit, that wouldn't make him one of the five best welterweights of all time.

Then by your standards what would?

Decagon wrote:Top five all time pound-for-pound? He's already precluded that by spending the past three years riding his HBO contract. I already see him as one of the ten or even five best lightweights of all time.

Agree at lightweights but at welter remains to be seen? Judah will not be an easy fight for him, no matter what anyone says Judah when motivated is dangerous and he has power and I learn to always give boxers who can punch a punchers chance.

Just list your top 5 all-time greats and look at their fight record.

And look at it in an objective way, pick holes in it.

Almost all...if not all fight records are less than perfect.


Floyd Mayweather`s fight record is almost as good as the best ring legends, he has dominated at a weight and moved up and beaten very good fighters along the way.

I see lt-welter as a weight above his best yet he is favoured over all the top guys there, and welter he would still be a moderate favourite.

Like Roy Jones Jr. he has been a little selective but the names that are on the record are proof of his worth.

...he'd have to fight in the 1920's, 30's, 40's or early fifties.

hey...don't scoff...quantam physics could give him a chance.

Basically he'd have to stop picking his opponents and jumping weight all the time to suit him. He'd have to take on the best in a division, and getting into a 2-3 fight series with a formidable adversary would really help too.

Floyd has a great range of skills. He obviously works very hard at improving. You can't really tell how great someone is until yuo've seen them under pressure ina close fight.

Decagon wrote:Here are my lists at 147 and 135:

Welterweights:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Mickey Walker
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Jose Napoles
6. Tommy Hearns
7. Emile Griffith
8. Kid Gavilan
9. Carmen Basilio
10. Charley Burley
11. Pernell Whitaker
12. Luis Rodriguez
13. Roberto Duran
14. Barney Ross
15. Jack Britton
16. Oscar de la Hoya
17. Tommy Ryan
18. Joe Walcott
19. “Nonpareil” Jack Dempsey
20. Jimmy McClarnin
21. Ted Lewis
22. Sam Langford
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Aaron Pryor
25. Wilfred Benitez
26. Billy Smith
27. The Cocoa Kid
28. Benny Paret
29. Fritzie Zivic
30. Carlos Palomino



Lightweights:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Joe Gans
6. Barney Ross
7. Ike Williams
8. Alexis Aguello
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Aaron Pryor
11. Lou Ambers
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
14. Carlos Ortiz
15. Kostya Tszyu
16. Dullo Loi
17. Shane Mosley
18. Beau Jack
19. Antonio Cervantes
20. Bob Montgomery
21. Esteban DeJesus
22. Nicolino Loche
23. Lew Jenkins
24. Ken Buchanan
25. Oscar de la Hoya
26. Diego Corrales
27. Frankie Randall
28. Hector Camacho
29. Edwin Rosario
30. Jose Luis Castillo

I'm ready to move Mayweather up at 135, but it's hard to rank him highly while his career is still unfolding. Very few of those 60 fighters had a three-year period of fighting nobodies during their absolute peak.

heres my lightweight list


1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Jack Blackburn
6. Ike Williams
7. Pernell Whitaker
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
9. Lou Ambers
10. Barney Ross
11. Dave Holly
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Floyd Mayweather
14. Carlos Ortiz
15. freddie welsh
16. alexis arguello
17. Joe Old Bones Brown
18. Bob Montgomery
19. Beau Jack
20. Oscar De La hoya
21. Hector Camacho
22. Esteban De Jesus
23. Sammy Mandell
24. Ken Buchanon
25. Shane Mosely

Decagon wrote:Here are my lists at 147 and 135:

Welterweights:

16. Oscar de la Hoya
...
23. Felix Trinidad

I can't see how you can have ODLH ahead of Trinidad in your welterwight ratings given that :

- Trinidad was 16-0 in title fights in welterweight, ODLH 9-2
- Trinidad had few pre-title wins in division, while ODLH had one post-title win in division
- Trinidad's best win (vs. DLH) is slightly better than Oscar's win over Quartey. Both fights were equally close & questionable, but results stand and neither was a robbery (only cases of preferences)
- they fought 3 common opponents in welterweights with results being otherwise comparable, but Trinidad dominated Whitaker while DLH struggled to win.
- OTOH, the version of Whitaker which DLH beat was MUCH better one so that does rather count for him as a plus.
- but as a counterpoint, Tito beat better versions of Oba Carr and Hector Camacho
- and the next best wins of Trinidad (Yory Boy Campas, Luis Garcia, Maurice Blocker) do CLEARLY outshine the next DLH wins (Wilfredo Rivera, Derrell Coley and Patrick Charpentier?)
- Granted, Trinidad had several title challengers whose credentials were either ancient or non-existent or for lower divisions only. But that also goes for the other DLH title victims in Julio Cesar Chavez and David Kamau. Neither of them never did ANYTHING in weight above light welter. Heck, the completely overmatched Larry Barnes and Ray Lovato had more right to contest title in welterweights at the time of matches in question.

So, numbers favor Trinidad.
The quality of opposition favors Trinidad
And he won the fight between the two.

So how can Oscar be better welterweight???

because oscar beat tito and faced the better competition at welterweight

ferroz wrote:I know some of you might scoff at the mere idea of Floyd possibly becoming a top 5 all-time great fighter, and think it will never happen, but if it did what would Floyd have to do, who would he have to fight (be specific) to be considered a top 5 all time great?

Competition that is not around today. I don't see how Mayweahter could achieve a top 5 status. Floyd fights for money, not a place in history. The fact that he called his 12 million dollar contract with HBO "a slave contract" proves this.
I don't care if he says he wan't to be among the greatest ever. If he truly did want this, he would have made more of a statement at 135 and 140, fought a lot more often than twice a year and seeked out the toughest opponents avaialble, i.e. not Arturo Gatti og Henry Brusseles.

Very few modern have a chance at becoming among the greats simply because they price themselves out of big fights, are inactive for months at a time, avoid top rated opposition when they can and don't have the dicipline of the greats of the past.

Look at the records of Robinson, Armstrong, Moore, Charles, etc. They are littered with top 10 rated opponents, sometimes anywhere between 3-6 a year plus other fights. Today it would take a good fighter several years to face a handful of top 10 rated opponents, and they sure as hell don't even consider fighting more than 3-4 times a year in total.
Floyd Mayweahter an all-time top 5 fighter? Not a chance!

-KOKid-

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:because oscar beat tito and faced the better competition at welterweight

He did? I must have missed the rematch.

-KOKid- wrote:

ferroz wrote:I know some of you might scoff at the mere idea of Floyd possibly becoming a top 5 all-time great fighter, and think it will never happen, but if it did what would Floyd have to do, who would he have to fight (be specific) to be considered a top 5 all time great?

Competition that is not around today. I don't see how Mayweahter could achieve a top 5 status. Floyd fights for money, not a place in history. The fact that he called his 12 million dollar contract with HBO "a slave contract" proves this.
I don't care if he says he wan't to be among the greatest ever. If he truly did want this, he would have made more of a statement at 135 and 140, fought a lot more often than twice a year and seeked out the toughest opponents avaialble, i.e. not Arturo Gatti og Henry Brusseles.

Very few modern have a chance at becoming among the greats simply because they price themselves out of big fights, are inactive for months at a time, avoid top rated opposition when they can and don't have the dicipline of the greats of the past.

Look at the records of Robinson, Armstrong, Moore, Charles, etc. They are littered with top 10 rated opponents, sometimes anywhere between 3-6 a year plus other fights. Today it would take a good fighter several years to face a handful of top 10 rated opponents, and they sure as hell don't even consider fighting more than 3-4 times a year in total.
Floyd Mayweahter an all-time top 5 fighter? Not a chance!

-KOKid-

KO

I have to agree with you. Some guys get out there and put themselves on the line. In recent times Chavez, DLH, Whittaker and Trinidad took on all-comers. I can't think of a fighter who they missed that would have been a serious match-up.

Petu v.d. Pajm wrote:

Decagon wrote:Here are my lists at 147 and 135:

Welterweights:

16. Oscar de la Hoya
...
23. Felix Trinidad

I can't see how you can have ODLH ahead of Trinidad in your welterwight ratings given that :

- Trinidad was 16-0 in title fights in welterweight, ODLH 9-2
- Trinidad had few pre-title wins in division, while ODLH had one post-title win in division
- Trinidad's best win (vs. DLH) is slightly better than Oscar's win over Quartey. Both fights were equally close & questionable, but results stand and neither was a robbery (only cases of preferences)
- they fought 3 common opponents in welterweights with results being otherwise comparable, but Trinidad dominated Whitaker while DLH struggled to win.
- OTOH, the version of Whitaker which DLH beat was MUCH better one so that does rather count for him as a plus.
- but as a counterpoint, Tito beat better versions of Oba Carr and Hector Camacho
- and the next best wins of Trinidad (Yory Boy Campas, Luis Garcia, Maurice Blocker) do CLEARLY outshine the next DLH wins (Wilfredo Rivera, Derrell Coley and Patrick Charpentier?)
- Granted, Trinidad had several title challengers whose credentials were either ancient or non-existent or for lower divisions only. But that also goes for the other DLH title victims in Julio Cesar Chavez and David Kamau. Neither of them never did ANYTHING in weight above light welter. Heck, the completely overmatched Larry Barnes and Ray Lovato had more right to contest title in welterweights at the time of matches in question.

So, numbers favor Trinidad.
The quality of opposition favors Trinidad
And he won the fight between the two.

So how can Oscar be better welterweight???

I have been arguing that for sometime but some people can not accept the fact that will all honesty putting being a fan aside and scoring the fight without bias, Tito won the fight vs. De la hoya. How can DLH win that fight when he practically ran for half of the fight? DLH won about four round convincingly but that does not mean for one second that he won the fight. Based on scoring by round Trinidad won. In the ranking at welter weight Trinidad should be ranked way ahead of DLH because he has way more accomplishments than DLH.

Decagon wrote:Ugh. I'm seriously thinking of stopping posting here because of the audio banners.

De la Hoya got ripped off against Trinidad, who would have a stylistic problem with any boxer. Trinidad looked good against guys who'd trade with him, like Vargas and Campas, but he never proved he could beat a top boxer by facing Quartey or someone like that.

You actually saying that Quartey was good boxer? C'mon Tito at 147 would have totally destroy Quartey. They were talks but Quartey supposedly got injured and decline the fight. Quartey in no way is a slick fighter and he trades and that would make him another victim of Tito. That is for sure. Please don’t mention Mosley and Quartey as an example because Trinidad would have them for breakfast at welter and that is a fact.

[quote="Decagon"]The point is, he didn't. He might have done this, and he might have done that, but Trinidad never got a clear win over a boxer in his prime. He was very, very protected at 147.[/quoteo]



Ok then name one name? If anything Trinidad never duck a fighter and even if you are not a fan you have to admit that Tito was willing to fight anyone and the proof is when he went up in weight he went directly to the champions never a tune up fight. If he was protected then mention one name he was protected against???? If anything many fighters avoided him and that is including Quartey and mosley.

So would cleaning out the welter weght division be enough for him to be considered top 5 all time?

For me the best competition out there at ww is Judah, Margarito, and if they go up in weight Cotto and Hatton. If he defeats them in convincing faction that makes a testament of how extraordinary his talent really is and if he defeats the best he deserve to be considered the best. Just my opinion. Remains to be seen because Judah is not going to be easy at all, especially if he is motivated I have the feeling that Judah will win.

The besthe can hope for is to be the best of his era, which is an era less good than the previous era....He could beat all the top guys in the 130, 135, 140, 147, 154 classes and not have fought the number of top pros in his career that Ezzard Charles or Greb or any of dozens of others fought in any given year.

I'll admit it's quite a longshot, but YES Floyd Mayweather does have a shot at becoming the greatest fighter who ever lived. If he wins the welterweight title in April that will give him titles in 4 weight classes. If he can then win the JMW title and retire undefeated I'll put him above Sugar Ray Robinson. That's going to be quite a challenge, but face it Floyd haters, in 35 fights no one's even been close to beating him.

..at the time sugar ray robinson fought 4 weight titles would have been half of those that existed....now four...both in weight and in alphabet titles are just a little more than a pittance.

happy new year.