BoxRec

Was Muhammad Ali the only Heavyweight in history who could have survived that vicious left hook from Joe Frazier in the 15 round of their first fight in 1971?

What other Heavyweights after fighting 14 and a half rounds with a peak, growling, snarling, left-hooking destroyer Joe Frazier, could have risen from that shot and lasted to the final bell.

The hook was hard... But it was no super punch as it's often made out to be. Ali is even turning his head away from the punch as it lands.

To be totally honest, I doubt Oliver McCall would have budged. George Chuvalo neither.

Now Frazier's huge left hook on Jimmy Ellis... You know the one - that was harder than the punch he caught Ali with. The second big left hook in the sixth round in Manila was a harder punch also. The one in the eleventh round of 1971 was harder. Frazier's hook on Bob Foster was harder. Frazier's sickening left hook on Jerry Quarry in their second fight was probably harder too. Frazier landed a few on Ramos that certainly looked more vicious than the punch he landed on Ali.

David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi, Vitali Klitschko and George Chuvalo would all have easily withstood it.

vitali withstand that flush shot? No way . . . he was stumbling around from Sander's straight shots, a Frazier left hook would have him reeling.

The Frazier hook in the 2nd Quarry fight (that seems to come out of nowehere) is easily one of the top 5 most perfect, brutal punches I've ever seen. The fact that Quarry didn't go down shots what a tough durable guy he was. Jerry Quarry is the last man you'd ever want a bar-room brawl with!!!

Seamus wrote:David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi, Vitali Klitschko and George Chuvalo would all have easily withstood it.

To take the shot maybe, but to take the shot after fighting 15 rounds rounds at the same furious pace is an entirely different question.
Personally, I don't belive Vitali Klitchko would have been able to fight at the same pace as Ali and Frazier did in 1971 at all, let alone for 15 rounds.

-KOKid-

Vitali withstood numerous shots from Lennox Lewis, and Corrie Sanders (18 1st round ko's) which is all the convincing I need to see.

Could Ike Ibeabuchi take a shot like that in the 15th round ? Probably not, since Frazier would need a miracle to make it past the 3rd round.

Seamus wrote:Vitali withstood numerous shots from Lennox Lewis, and Corrie Sanders (18 1st round ko's) which is all the convincing I need to see.

Could Ike Ibeabuchi take a shot like that in the 15th round ? Probably not, since Frazier would need a miracle to make it past the 3rd round.

Wow. As I'v said before Ibeabuchi just keeps getting better and better.
He had only 20 fights, and only 2 were against anyone that was good at all (Tua and Byrd) . 4 journeyman went the distance with him. He wasn't able to ko Tua, so the only ko of any note was his 5th round ko of the legendary Chris Byrd. Yet it would be a miracle for Joe Frazier to make it past the 3rd round against Ibeabuchi.

No, Ali wasn't the only fighter who would have survived. A handful of guys would have gotten up from it. It was a great punch. It was right on the button, and delivered by the by probably the best left hooker ever, Joe Frazier. Probably more than 99% of heavyweights would have been counted out. I don't believe any man wouldn't have gone down from that punch, especially that late in the fight.
To get up and to survive the round, (against a great finisher like Frazier)a fighter would have to have a great chin, recuperative powers, heart, and stamina.

Of the guys already mentioned, I believe Chuvalo would have been the most likely to survive. He proved himself many times over that he could take a shot.

Ibeabuchi is almost totally unproven. His fight against Tua was the only one in his whole career that went against a guy who could punch.
Klitshcko had a good chin. He did take some shots from Sanders, (he was hurt a couple of times) and a few from an out of shape Lewis. Doubtful though he would be in condition to survive a punch like that in the 15 th round.

Tua and Cobb are good possibilties. They both could take a punch.

I would add Jeffries, Marciano, Holmes and Holyfield as more possiblities.
There are other ordinary fighters who had great chins (although not much else) and probably could have survived.

The are also a small percentage of fighters who may have beaten the count, but not survived the round.

How many guys would have got up at 3, and then fight as well as Ali did the rest of the round?

Decagon wrote:Marciano's usually credited with having one of the best chins of all time, but who were the biggest heavyweight punchers he faced? Archie Moore? Joe Walcott?

All about size eh?

Tell that to Earnie Shavers, who hit much harder than Nicolai Valuev, despite weighing over one hundred pounds less.

Decagon wrote:Marciano's usually credited with having one of the best chins of all time, but who were the biggest heavyweight punchers he faced? Archie Moore? Joe Walcott?

Ive heard that Joe Louis punched pretty hard!

Decagon wrote:Marciano's usually credited with having one of the best chins of all time, but who were the biggest heavyweight punchers he faced? Archie Moore? Joe Walcott?

yea i mean archie moore only has the most knockouts of all time and is rated 4th on the rings all time top 100 greatest punchers list


walcott is only rated 66th on the rings top 100 greatest punchers list.
for comparison, razor ruddock is rated 70th. and im guessing u consider ruddock a big puncher. walcott knocked louis down 3 times, and was the only man to knock out a prime ezzard charles, with 1 punch i might add. in most of walcott fights, he floored the other guy like ray, walcott, charles, maxim, marciano, oma, bivins, etc and all of those knockdowns were with 1 punch. walcott didnt need combos to knock u down, he did it either with his sneaky right hand, or powerful left hook. walcott has underated power.


and what about joe louis? he may have been far past his best but he still had power left, especially in his left hook. louis recentley knocked out lee savold with 1 punch. savold had been knocked out only once in his 16 year career. I think that shows louis still had power left.

other hard hitters he faced

carmine vingo
rex layne
johnny Shkor
ezzard charles
eddie ross
lee savold



no he never faced a liston or foreman, but he did face some big punchers






the fact that marciano was never down until walcott fight even though he spent his first 15 fighting with without charley goldman, so rocky had no defense whatsover and was taking huge punches yet somehow never went down.

should we hold liston being floored by 175lb marty marshall or frazier being floored by michael bruce or ali being floored by sonny banks holmes being floored by kevin issacs against them?


fact is, it took a lot to put marciano on the floor, let alone knock him out. on film, weve seen marciano take big punches but we have never seen him BADLY hurt in his career meaning stumbling around the ring or out on his feet.


i rate marcianos chin high but not the highest. i rate guys like holmes, ali, holyfield who have more proven chins higher but marciano certainly had a very good chin.

Decagon wrote:Please. Out of all those knockouts Moore had, very few were over heavyweights.

So what?

Marciano weighed the same as Moore. Both were in great shape. In a pound-for-pound sense at least, Marciano's chin was top notch.

Decagon wrote:But we're talking about Marciano's ability to take a huge punch. Would you really argue that Marciano taking a few shots from a fat middleweight means he could get up from that left hook that downed Muhammad Ali?

A fat middleweight?

Who is this?

Decagon wrote:Please. Out of all those knockouts Moore had, very few were over heavyweights.

Gee I wonder why? Mabey because he faught as a Middle and LHW most his career.

Decagon wrote:... and you almost understand the point of this thread.

Tell me who this fat middleweight was who tested Rocky's chin.

Moore absolutley hit hard, hard enough to KO 24 people after he faught Marciano, 22 of whom were Heavyweights. 22 KOs now adays is what we consider top fighters. That being said he KOd those men at the ages of 45-50 and you question his hitting power at HW? I understand the original intent of this thread but I needed to defend 2 of my favorite boxers in Moore and Marciano.

Decagon wrote:Sorry, it's hard to take you seriously after you got Rocky Marciano and Larry Holmes mixed up.

You think I was serious?

BB will tell you I was joking. He knows my knowledge is sufficient enough not to make such a rookie mistake.

Marciano, no punch? Smooth jab? Holmes, no chin? Slugger?

Come on...

Tell me who this fat middleweight was.

dempseyfire wrote:vitali withstand that flush shot? No way . . . he was stumbling around from Sander's straight shots, a Frazier left hook would have him reeling

Thats right Sanders did have Vitali reling and if he'd not been such a fat bloater and been able to follow up I think he would have put him down.

The prime evander holyfield could have risen from that hook after 14 rounds.

Sanders was a crap puncher. He was powerful, but he threw arm punches. Shitty combinations if ever I saw them.

Mitch Green could have taken it and laughed.

Nile4000 wrote:Mitch Green could have taken it and laughed.

Do you really think Green could have gone 15 hard rounds with Frazier and then taken that left hook and laughed it off?

KOJOE90 wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Mitch Green could have taken it and laughed.

Do you really think Green could have gone 15 hard rounds with Frazier and then taken that left hook and laughed it off?

In a very weird and unique way, yes.

DoubleM wrote:Sanders was a crap puncher. He was powerful, but he threw arm punches. Shitty combinations if ever I saw them.

Saunders is a good golf player apparently.

On the subject of Golf. Joe Louis was a big golf player but his trainer Jackie Blackburn hated him playing it as he believed that the body movements made during a golf swing was bad for a Boxer.

decagon aparentley called this guy a fat middleweight.............




http://www.writestuffautographs.com/sho ... xing58.jpg

Moore had the perfect build for a light heavyweight. Short enough to slug, tall enough to box. As you can see from the photograph, he had a thick torso, big arms and strong legs. He had a fairly long reach and quite big fists, too.