BoxRec

Before my time, and I don't have access to the publications of the day, and this is not really something you can get from books, but I am wondering :
What was the general concensus view on these guys immediately after the fight?
Would be nice to get some honest feedback from guys who remember.

Did you think that Ali was too over the hill to give Joe another close fight?

How did Frazier measure up against the all timers in light of this win?

Great thread W'spoon. I love eharing from the people who remember when the fight actually happened what the general feeling was like. Hoping to hear from a lot of posters.

As you'd expect there was some divergence in opinion depending on whether you supported Ali or Frazier.... so nothing new there!

In general terms...Frazier fans felt that Joe had shown Ali he was the boss, the knockdown was a big thing, Joe might well have stopped him, and so on.

and...Ali supporters reckoned that the three years inactivity had cost their man the fight, if he's had more action than just the Quarry and Bonavena fights (and more time to build up to a major fight with Joe) then he'd surely have won.

Going into the fight I thought Ali would win. With the benefit of hindsight (and later the video recorder!) I should have realised that he got virtually no action in the Quarry fight and that he really struggled for long periods against Bonavena. I was carried away with the stunning KO against Oscar, and didn't spot the rust, the less than perfect timing, etc. in that fight

After the fight, I did believe that Ali would beat Frazier in a return provided he had the desire to continue (it's easy to look back NOW and say "Of course he did!" but he'd been thru a hell of a lot) and that he could get his sharpness back with a series of good fights.

I reckoned that Joe had probably peaked against Ali that night and that his style wouldn't allow him to improve significantly, whereas Ali probably had the capability of improving once he shook off the rust. And after all, there wasn't that much between the two in that fight....The second fight went the way I thought the first one would have gone, and of course The Thrilla was something else!

Regarding Frazier's place in the all time rankings after that fight, I guess the "casual fan" would have reckoned that he was now like "the man who beat the man" and therefore belonged in the all time great list. The more dedicated follower realised that all time greatness isn't just about one fight, and that Joe did have some advantages over Ali for that fight, mainly activity versus non-activity. But he did get a lot of positive press (sign of the times?) for "shutting Ali's mouth".

Hope this is something like what you're after, although I accept it's more my own recollection and viewpoint rather than public at large.

J

I might be alone here but I really thought Ali won the first fight. He was landing at a rate of 3-1. I know Joe pressured him throughout, but that was his style. Ali outscored him for the whole fight, Frazier got the big round in 11 and 14 I think but Ali definitely was the more consistent scorer. Also everyone wanted to see Ali lose, because of the Vietnam affair and I felt this persuaded the judges a lot.

I think Frazier won on the excitement of that knockdown, I also think he deserved to win but that cinched it.

But I always go back to ...Frazier won the battle but Ali won the war on that night. The reason I feel comfortable with this "paradox" is that it was Joe that suffered the greater beating that night. That aspect is not in doubt, who would you rather be after that fight? The guy that had the energy to go around further promoting their rivalry or the guy who truly needed focused hospitalization for days after this bout?

(Here come the Joe fans saying that the hospitilization was "unrelated"..... please, the guy was in trouble based on the serious beating he was given. Ali weathered his beating much much better than Joe.)

The guy with the deservedly better score that night was also the guy who took the much more serious beating. Just one of those things that can only happen in boxing.

walshb wrote:I might be alone here but I really thought Ali won the first fight. He was landing at a rate of 3-1. I know Joe pressured him throughout, but that was his style. Ali outscored him for the whole fight, Frazier got the big round in 11 and 14 I think but Ali definitely was the more consistent scorer. Also everyone wanted to see Ali lose, because of the Vietnam affair and I felt this persuaded the judges a lot.

Before and during the fight I wanted Ali to win because I thought he was the better boxer and the more charismatic figure, and I felt that boxing would somehow be "better off " with him as heavyweight champion. However, no matter how many times I watch that fight I can't see that he won it. Agree it was close, but the knockdown swung it, both in terms of its impact on the fighters and on the judges.

Re your view that "everyone wanted to see Ali lose" I don't recall it being quite that simple. The mood had swung against the war, and Ali was by that stage becoming more and more popular as a kind of "anti-war figure". I agree that a lot of people would have liked to see him lose becuase of the Vietnam issue, but equally there was also a great deal of support for him arising out of a growing discontent with the war - and also because there wasa a feeling that he had been unfairly treated by the government and the then rulers of boxing.

I will admit that I wasn't in the US at the time, but I always took a strong interest in both US politics and of course boxing.

J

BoxBuzz wrote:I think Frazier one on the excitement of that knockdown, I also think he deserved to win but that cinched it.

But I always go back to ...Frazier won the battle but Ali won the war on that night. The reason I feel comfortable with this "paradox" is that it was Joe that suffered the greater beating that night. That aspect is not in doubt, who would you rather be after that fight? The guy that had the energy to go around further promoting their rivalry or the guy who truly needed focused hospitalization for days after this bout?

(Here come the Joe fans saying that the hospitilization was "unrelated"..... please, the guy was in trouble based on the serious beating he was given. Ali weathered his beating much much better than Joe.)

The guy with the deservedly better score that night was also the guy who took the much more serious beating. Just one of those things that can only happen in boxing.

Excellent insight Boxxbuzz. I was a fairly young kid when this fight took place, but I remember it well. Ali had been adopted by a fan base that was very much into a social rebellion common to the late 60s early 70s, and smokin Joe was the blue collar lunchpail guy.The fight was significant in that regard. Boxxbuzz is right about the amount of damage Frazier took in that fight but I dont really remember the hospital stay being talked about that much. I like Joe and I like what he is about he came up the hard way. Thing is he always took alot of shots and his career was not really that long possibly as a result of this.He only fought ten times after the first Ali fight. He seems to be doing O.K. now . One more thing, does anyone know why the hell Philadelphia erected a statue of Sly Stallone instead of Joe in that city?

Cuz Sly paid for it.

I should have known.

From what I've read from papers and mags of the time some people did think Ali had won but in all fairness I think Frazier won clearly, and I'm a huge Ali fan. The problem Ali had in this fight (other than Joe!!) was that he had not yet adapted his style to the fact that he could nolonger 'dance' for 15 rounds. When he was caught on the ropes he didn't cover up as well as he would in later fights... Ali also gave away some rounds by clowning... perhaps trying to cover up his fatigue, but also I think he did underestimate Frazier and how much he had lost in his 3 years of inactivity. Its interesting that quite a few people wrote Ali off after this fight and said he would never be champ again, ...this feeling was ofcourse doubled after the Norton loss when Ali was written off by the most people as a spent force... people tend to underestimate just what an achievement it was when Ali regained the title against Foreman when most of the world believed he was far beyond his best....

At the time boxing was still a major sport and could command the worlds attention. If you aren't old enough to remember this fight then you probably can't imagine just how much attention this fight got all over the world, and especially in the US.

I was in jr HS when this fight took place, and it's just about the only thing people taked about for weeks -- before and after the fight. I was a huge Frazier fan and placed several bets with classmates and I remember how a few didn't want to pay because they thought that Ali should have won. At the time, there wasn't much press about how serious Joe's condition was. In fact I think it was years later when it became common knowledge of Joes post fight condition.

I've watched this fight many times, and while it was close, I think Joe deserved the win. Ali's ability to survive the 11th round is one of the great accomplishments in boxing. But no matter how many times I see the fight the one thing I'm always amazed at is the condition that they were both in that night. They were moving faster and with more energy during the 15th round than you'll see from any current HW in the 2nd round of a fight. Clearly two of the greatest HW's ever, and one of the greatest fights ever.

As far as Ali not being able to dance for 15 rounds after his 3+ year layoff, I don't think he would have ever been able to dance for 15 rounds against a prime Frazier. Joe was just too relentless, skilled and well conditioned. Ali would have had to stop and engage Joe eventually. It's just a matter of styles and ability.

The Great John L wrote:At the time boxing was still a major sport and could command the worlds attention. If you aren't old enough to remember this fight then you probably can't imagine just how much attention this fight got all over the world, and especially in the US.

I was in jr HS when this fight took place, and it's just about the only thing people taked about for weeks -- before and after the fight. I was a huge Frazier fan and placed several bets with classmates and I remember how a few didn't want to pay because they thought that Ali should have won. At the time, there wasn't much press about how serious Joe's condition was. In fact I think it was years later when it became common knowledge of Joes post fight condition.

I've watched this fight many times, and while it was close, I think Joe deserved the win. Ali's ability to survive the 11th round is one of the great accomplishments in boxing. But no matter how many times I see the fight the one thing I'm always amazed at is the condition that they were both in that night. They were moving faster and with more energy during the 15th round than you'll see from any current HW in the 2nd round of a fight. Clearly two of the greatest HW's ever, and one of the greatest fights ever.

As far as Ali not being able to dance for 15 rounds after his 3+ year layoff, I don't think he would have ever been able to dance for 15 rounds against a prime Frazier. Joe was just too relentless, skilled and well conditioned. Ali would have had to stop and engage Joe eventually. It's just a matter of styles and ability.

Well I think the Ali of 67 would have been much more elusive and Frazier wouldn't have found him so easy to hit for sure... when you see the damage that the slower Ali did to Frazier in this fight then I think you must favour Ali to win had they fought during his prime. It would still have been a hell of a fight, but the increased speed of Ali would edge it.
Frazier has never got the respect he should have, I rate him above Dempsey and Marciano... but his career is overshadowed by Ali and Foreman....

silkov wrote:Well I think the Ali of 67 would have been much more elusive and Frazier wouldn't have found him so easy to hit for sure... when you see the damage that the slower Ali did to Frazier in this fight then I think you must favour Ali to win had they fought during his prime. It would still have been a hell of a fight, but the increased speed of Ali would edge it.
Frazier has never got the respect he should have, I rate him above Dempsey and Marciano... but his career is overshadowed by Ali and Foreman....

I didn't say Frazier would have beaten a prime Ali. I simply said that Ali wouldn't have been able to dance all 15 rounds against him, and I see no reason to change that opinion. Yes, a prime Ali beats Frazier most of the time, but Joe's style gives any version of Ali trouble. And remember, Ali wasn't unhittable and a perfect machine for everyone of his 67 and earlier fights. I would say that he was pretty sharp for Frazier I. Certainly much sharper than he was against Bonavena.

There is another component of this conversation, First of all that fight was Frazier in his prime. I think we can agree on that.

As to what Ali's prime was, is topic for debate, as his physical skills prime was not in synche with this mental skills prime. You can argue that he had a "prime that never was" as a result. He may well have won or lost to Joe in his physical prime depending on how you view their styles and Ali's focus vs flamboyance.

I am certain that the Ali in the second fight would have beaten the Joe in the first fight because he came with respect for Joe and decided to simply outpoint him. Not all that exciting but something that Ali could always do to anyone including Joe Louis if he came in with that fight plan and had 90% of all his mental/physical skills available to him.

The Manilla fight was all guts and sort of an abberational fight in my mind.
But what a display of intestinal fortitude from both....