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who do u think would have won this fight? lets say it takes place in there primes in 1920 right after wills knocked out fulton



my pick is Dempsey KO 2 wills

Not so fast, my friend as Lee Corso would say. Be careful that you're not overrating the offensive fighter.

The 1920 Wills had already beaten Sam Langford in 1915 and 1916 when Langford was still near his prime (and Jack Thompson as well) so he had faced higher level competition than Dempsey to that point (Willard, Levinsky). Dempsey clearly had the speed advantage on Willard, but Wills was much more athletic than Willard and a much better defensive fighter than both. He would not be afraid of Dempsey and would take the fight to him. Wills wasn't the classic boxer from outside, so he would get in tight, and not give Dempsey the distance to land the really big bombs. I see his style frustrating Dempsey who would then try to land some haymakers to no avail. While I think Dempsey is a better fighter as far as history is concerned, I like Harry Wills stinking out a 15 rd decision in this fight over a frustrated Dempsey.

i disagree about langford. I think langford was past his prime by 1914.

He would not be afraid of Dempsey and would take the fight to him. Wills wasn't the classic boxer from outside, so he would get in tight, and not give Dempsey the distance to land the really big bombs.

dempsey didnt need the distance, dempsey was probably the best inside fighter of all time and if the fight becomes at close quarters, wills will get knocked out. I see dempsey turning this into a slugfest and I cant see wills outslugging dempsey . dempsey is the better boxer and the better slugger IMO


I also dont think wills has the chin to stand up to dempseys punches

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i disagree about langford. I think langford was past his prime by 1914.

dempsey didnt need the distance, dempsey was probably the best inside fighter of all time and if the fight becomes at close quarters, wills will get knocked out. I see dempsey turning this into a slugfest and I cant see wills outslugging dempsey . dempsey is the better boxer and the better slugger IMO


I also dont think wills has the chin to stand up to dempseys punches

Wills also beat Langford in 1914 as well. And the fight he lost to Langford in 1914 had multiple knockdowns both ways so he was skilled enough to go toe-to-toe with Langford, during Langford's prime considering his later win over Wills that year. A much better opponent than anyone Dempsey fought through 1920, I think we can agree.

Wills doesn't have the chin to stand up to Dempsey? Based on what? Wills had not been KO'd (not counting breaking a wrist in 1917) for 4 years up to 1920. And fighters like Jack Thompson, Big Bill Tate, and Sam Langford (even past his prime) were no joke. Dempsey also had a good chin, save a quick KO to Jim Flynn. You have this slanted to Dempsey, but wouldn't you acknowledge that Wills could have caught him flush and had the power to KO him like Flynn did? Later in 1920, Bill Brennan had Dempsey in trouble and you don't think Harry Wills could have gotten to Dempsey? Did you mention in your post anything about Wills defense? Wills, like the other black fighters of that time, was an excellent defensive fighter. Why do you believe he couldn't tie up Dempsey on the inside like he did to some of his famous black counterparts and dictate the fight with his height and 20-30 pound weight advantage on Dempsey? The prime Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVea, all hard punchers, could not take Wills out in less than 14 rounds but Dempsey would?

I can acknowledge that Dempsey may win, although I think Wills style would frustrate him, but yet you are so sure that Dempsey blows Wills away when no one else at the time had done it and Dempsey would be giving up height, 20-30 pounds, and defense advantages to Wills? I don't get it.

Wills NEVER fought a prime Langford. Langford began his career in 1902. He'd been fighting for 12 years before Wills fought him and had had over 120 bouts. Harry was younger, fresher, bigger and stronger, yet Sam was still able to KO him with a single punch.

Not sure where you've gotten your information, but Wills was a stand-up fighter, not a "excellent defensive fighter". Sure he had some defense, but he was hardly brilliant as far as that dept. is concerned. The newspaper accounts support me on this.

Harry liked to slug it out. This would prove to be his downfall against the faster, harder-punching Dempsey.

Joe Jeanette and Sam McVey hard punchers?? Again, I must question your sources. Newspaper accounts have these guys as decent punchers, but hardly killers in the Dempsey mold.

dnahar32 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i disagree about langford. I think langford was past his prime by 1914.

dempsey didnt need the distance, dempsey was probably the best inside fighter of all time and if the fight becomes at close quarters, wills will get knocked out. I see dempsey turning this into a slugfest and I cant see wills outslugging dempsey . dempsey is the better boxer and the better slugger IMO


I also dont think wills has the chin to stand up to dempseys punches

Wills also beat Langford in 1914 as well. And the fight he lost to Langford in 1914 had multiple knockdowns both ways so he was skilled enough to go toe-to-toe with Langford, during Langford's prime considering his later win over Wills that year. A much better opponent than anyone Dempsey fought through 1920, I think we can agree.

Wills doesn't have the chin to stand up to Dempsey? Based on what? Wills had not been KO'd (not counting breaking a wrist in 1917) for 4 years up to 1920. And fighters like Jack Thompson, Big Bill Tate, and Sam Langford (even past his prime) were no joke. Dempsey also had a good chin, save a quick KO to Jim Flynn. You have this slanted to Dempsey, but wouldn't you acknowledge that Wills could have caught him flush and had the power to KO him like Flynn did? Later in 1920, Bill Brennan had Dempsey in trouble and you don't think Harry Wills could have gotten to Dempsey? Did you mention in your post anything about Wills defense? Wills, like the other black fighters of that time, was an excellent defensive fighter. Why do you believe he couldn't tie up Dempsey on the inside like he did to some of his famous black counterparts and dictate the fight with his height and 20-30 pound weight advantage on Dempsey? The prime Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVea, all hard punchers, could not take Wills out in less than 14 rounds but Dempsey would?

I can acknowledge that Dempsey may win, although I think Wills style would frustrate him, but yet you are so sure that Dempsey blows Wills away when no one else at the time had done it and Dempsey would be giving up height, 20-30 pounds, and defense advantages to Wills? I don't get it.

dnahar32 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i disagree about langford. I think langford was past his prime by 1914.

dempsey didnt need the distance, dempsey was probably the best inside fighter of all time and if the fight becomes at close quarters, wills will get knocked out. I see dempsey turning this into a slugfest and I cant see wills outslugging dempsey . dempsey is the better boxer and the better slugger IMO


I also dont think wills has the chin to stand up to dempseys punches

Wills also beat Langford in 1914 as well. And the fight he lost to Langford in 1914 had multiple knockdowns both ways so he was skilled enough to go toe-to-toe with Langford, during Langford's prime considering his later win over Wills that year. A much better opponent than anyone Dempsey fought through 1920, I think we can agree.

Wills doesn't have the chin to stand up to Dempsey? Based on what? Wills had not been KO'd (not counting breaking a wrist in 1917) for 4 years up to 1920. And fighters like Jack Thompson, Big Bill Tate, and Sam Langford (even past his prime) were no joke. Dempsey also had a good chin, save a quick KO to Jim Flynn. You have this slanted to Dempsey, but wouldn't you acknowledge that Wills could have caught him flush and had the power to KO him like Flynn did? Later in 1920, Bill Brennan had Dempsey in trouble and you don't think Harry Wills could have gotten to Dempsey? Did you mention in your post anything about Wills defense? Wills, like the other black fighters of that time, was an excellent defensive fighter. Why do you believe he couldn't tie up Dempsey on the inside like he did to some of his famous black counterparts and dictate the fight with his height and 20-30 pound weight advantage on Dempsey? The prime Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVea, all hard punchers, could not take Wills out in less than 14 rounds but Dempsey would?

I can acknowledge that Dempsey may win, although I think Wills style would frustrate him, but yet you are so sure that Dempsey blows Wills away when no one else at the time had done it and Dempsey would be giving up height, 20-30 pounds, and defense advantages to Wills? I don't get it.

Wills also beat Langford in 1914 as well. And the fight he lost to Langford in 1914 had multiple knockdowns both ways so he was skilled enough to go toe-to-toe with Langford, during Langford's prime considering his later win over Wills that year. A much better opponent than anyone Dempsey fought through 1920, I think we can agree.

i agree, but i also think jack dempsey was a better heavyweight than langford

Wills doesn't have the chin to stand up to Dempsey? Based on what?

based on IMO dempsey is the 3rd greatest heavyweight puncher of all time. i dont think he can deal with dempseys offense and arsnel of punches in a slugout.

Dempsey also had a good chin, save a quick KO to Jim Flynn

dempsey took a dive in the flynn fight IMHO. it was a very bad period for dempsey who was terribly poor and who was rarely eating for 2-3 days sometimes. dempseys wife said "jack was offered more to lose than he was to win." Dempseys friends always admitted jack took a dive. there are many arguements for both sides but i believe jack took a dive.











when asked how Harry Wills would do against Jack Dempsey, langford said "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion"

Later in 1920, Bill Brennan had Dempsey in trouble and you don't think Harry Wills could have gotten to Dempsey?

this was an off night for jack dempsey, i remember reading reports on this fight and talking to huge dempsey fans and they explained to me how this was an off night for dempsey. a lot of great champions have off nights.

Why do you believe he couldn't tie up Dempsey on the inside like he did to some of his famous black counterparts and dictate the fight with his height and 20-30 pound weight advantage on Dempsey?

dempsey was a "giant killer" like jack dillon. the big men were made for jack dempsey. he loved hitting the bigger target. if wills tries to clinch dempsey and stay on the inside, he will get knocked out. unlike harry wills, dempsey threw shorter punches and on the inside he was deadly with his short punches and combinations. dempsey was very strong for his size, despite being only 190lb. wills isnt going to manhandle him.

The prime Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVea, all hard punchers, could not take Wills out in less than 14 rounds but Dempsey would?

dempsey is in a class ahead of these guys at heavyweight. these guys were great heavyweights but jack dempsey was special. he was even a greater puncher than all these guys. he hit harder with one punch, he had a better arsenal of punches, fast handspeed, threw better combinations, had knockout power in both hands, etc.



i cant see wills style frustrating him because I see this bout turning into a slugout and a fight on the inside and theres no way wills can survive dempsey on the inside. dempsey will be able to get inside because he has fast footspeed and great defense and he will cut off the ring and on wills.

this was an off night for jack dempsey, i remember reading reports on this fight and talking to huge dempsey fans and they explained to me how this was an off night for dempsey. a lot of great champions have off nights.

Wow, that's interesting that you say this because I was just watching this bout this very evening and I wasn't thinking of Dempsey as having an "off-night" at all. Brennan came in to this fight in fantastic condition and was absolutely primed to give his best possible performance. His uppercuts, in particular, were especially sharp and well-timed. Dempsey took the best Brennan threw at him with hardly a backwards step and delivered a skilled, workmanlike performance fighting inside and punishing Brennan with short, bruising "shovel hooks" to the body.

I ended watching the fight feeling distinctly sorry for Brennan, who probably put on the fight of his career only to run up against a prime fighting machine with enormous energy and durability. The only other Brennan fight I've seen is against Firpo, by which time he was pretty well shot. Anyone seen any other footage of "KO Bill"?

This is a well discussed topic, and I always come back to the same question--who fought the better fighters? Dempsey or Wills? Dempsey was a great champion but his "mystique" always shows up in everyone's take on this mythical matchup.
I think they both could have won on a given night, (in 1920 I would have favored Wills) and thats what makes it such a shame they never fought and what makes this such a hot topic.
And the "big guys were made for Dempsey" line is played out as well. name me a fighter as big, as skilled and with the experience against top flight competition that Wills had that Jack knocked out in quick fashion--or knocked out at all. I would say there is no one who fits that description. So how could it be assumed that Wills would be cannon fodder for Dempsey? Or that Jack would murder Harry on the inside? No offense meant to anyone, but someone above picked Dempsey to KO Wills in two rounds. That is quicker than Jack knocked out Carpentier and Billy Miske--two lightheavyweights.

Oh c'mon, don't dismiss Fred Fulton like he's some bum. Fulton was as big as Wills and owned a couple of wins over Sam Langford.

UpWithEvil wrote:

this was an off night for jack dempsey, i remember reading reports on this fight and talking to huge dempsey fans and they explained to me how this was an off night for dempsey. a lot of great champions have off nights.

Wow, that's interesting that you say this because I was just watching this bout this very evening and I wasn't thinking of Dempsey as having an "off-night" at all. Brennan came in to this fight in fantastic condition and was absolutely primed to give his best possible performance. His uppercuts, in particular, were especially sharp and well-timed. Dempsey took the best Brennan threw at him with hardly a backwards step and delivered a skilled, workmanlike performance fighting inside and punishing Brennan with short, bruising "shovel hooks" to the body.

I ended watching the fight feeling distinctly sorry for Brennan, who probably put on the fight of his career only to run up against a prime fighting machine with enormous energy and durability. The only other Brennan fight I've seen is against Firpo, by which time he was pretty well shot. Anyone seen any other footage of "KO Bill"?

thanx for the info,


this is the only fight i have not seen of dempsey and i am dying to see it. could u possibly upload it online?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

UpWithEvil wrote:

this was an off night for jack dempsey, i remember reading reports on this fight and talking to huge dempsey fans and they explained to me how this was an off night for dempsey. a lot of great champions have off nights.

Wow, that's interesting that you say this because I was just watching this bout this very evening and I wasn't thinking of Dempsey as having an "off-night" at all. Brennan came in to this fight in fantastic condition and was absolutely primed to give his best possible performance. His uppercuts, in particular, were especially sharp and well-timed. Dempsey took the best Brennan threw at him with hardly a backwards step and delivered a skilled, workmanlike performance fighting inside and punishing Brennan with short, bruising "shovel hooks" to the body.

I ended watching the fight feeling distinctly sorry for Brennan, who probably put on the fight of his career only to run up against a prime fighting machine with enormous energy and durability. The only other Brennan fight I've seen is against Firpo, by which time he was pretty well shot. Anyone seen any other footage of "KO Bill"?

thanx for the info,


this is the only fight i have not seen of dempsey and i am dying to see it. could u possibly upload it online?

Brocky, surely you mean 'championship' fight. You aren't saying you have seen ALL Jack's fights bar one?

I'd like to see Porky Dan Flynn though.

Collins2000 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

UpWithEvil wrote: Wow, that's interesting that you say this because I was just watching this bout this very evening and I wasn't thinking of Dempsey as having an "off-night" at all. Brennan came in to this fight in fantastic condition and was absolutely primed to give his best possible performance. His uppercuts, in particular, were especially sharp and well-timed. Dempsey took the best Brennan threw at him with hardly a backwards step and delivered a skilled, workmanlike performance fighting inside and punishing Brennan with short, bruising "shovel hooks" to the body.

I ended watching the fight feeling distinctly sorry for Brennan, who probably put on the fight of his career only to run up against a prime fighting machine with enormous energy and durability. The only other Brennan fight I've seen is against Firpo, by which time he was pretty well shot. Anyone seen any other footage of "KO Bill"?

thanx for the info,


this is the only fight i have not seen of dempsey and i am dying to see it.
could u possibly upload it online?

Brocky, surely you mean 'championship' fight. You aren't saying you have seen ALL Jack's fights bar one?

I'd like to see Porky Dan Flynn though.

ha!



ya i meant 'championship' fights + sharkey fight.

And Fulton got knocked out by both Wills and Dempsey, not to mention a number of other guys. Fulton was a good fighter, but he was not Harry Wills--cmon--that is a stretch.

Hey Guys don't pick on Dan Porky Flynn, his grandaughter is my wife's best friend.

RowanSmith wrote:And Fulton got knocked out by both Wills and Dempsey, not to mention a number of other guys. Fulton was a good fighter, but he was not Harry Wills--cmon--that is a stretch.

He wasn't Harry Wills, but he was Fred Fulton, and Fred Fulton was a damn good big fighter. Fulton was the arguably the best heavyweight in the world at the time he met Dempsey and was only a year removed from stopping Langford. After Dempsey knocked him out, he beat Langford again. Wills and Dempsey are about the only contenders he met and didn't knock out during his peak years.

Resurrected this old thread as I was interested in current views. For me wills would have beaten Dempsey when they were due to fight. Jack struggled with gibbons and Brennan whilst wills had a 50-60 fight winning run (apart from a dq). He was bigger, more active and I believe better anyway. Views?

cfang wrote:Resurrected this old thread as I was interested in current views. For me wills would have beaten Dempsey when they were due to fight. Jack struggled with gibbons and Brennan whilst wills had a 50-60 fight winning run (apart from a dq). He was bigger, more active and I believe better anyway. Views?

I agree. I do have a dislike for Dempsey and feel he is incredibly overrated. So it's no surprise I'd pick the man he ducked for years to beat him, likely by UD.

Wills and Dempsey were both good fighters but they both had their weaknesses. On any given night a fight between them could go either way, but I think a prime Dempsey would likely KO a prime Wills early. If Wills could hold him off and tie him up it might go his way in the later rounds as Dempsey lost steam. Bill Brennan, a pretty fair boxer, was only an inch shorter than Wills and weighed nearly the same. If he could keep the tiger at bay than Wills could have done as well. The problem for Harry was he'd never fought anyone with Dempsey's tear away style before. The best men he beat were getting long in the tooth when he fought them; Fred Fulton may have been the best of the top contenders Wills knocked out. There was talk of him fighting Jack Renault and Billy Miske but they fell through.

How good could Harry Wills take a punch ?
especially a "shovel-Hook"that would land flush by Manassa Mauler.

Tomasino wrote:

cfang wrote:Resurrected this old thread as I was interested in current views. For me wills would have beaten Dempsey when they were due to fight. Jack struggled with gibbons and Brennan whilst wills had a 50-60 fight winning run (apart from a dq). He was bigger, more active and I believe better anyway. Views?

I agree. I do have a dislike for Dempsey and feel he is incredibly overrated. So it's no surprise I'd pick the man he ducked for years to beat him, likely by UD.

why you dis-like Dempsey for man ?
Thats practicaly un-American.

I think at the time of the match, Dempsey most likely would have won because Wills was nowhere near the monster he was when he was beating Sam Langford, a man Dempsey admitted he ducked, over a dozen times. Wills was a threat to Dempsey certainly at some point, but not when the contract was signed.

Dempsey was a monster but.................can someone tell me how many negro's he fight

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Dempsey was a monster but.................can someone tell me how many negro's he fight

I don't really buy into the "black is better" argument, for one main reason: all the black guys just fought the same guys over and over again, same styles and predictability. The white guys occasionally mixed up with blacks, and foreign fighters on a more frequent basis.

When Dempsey was known as Kid Blackie he fought black men from time to time, though that part of his life is rather opaque. He always had black guys as sparring partners. So one can't use the excuse that he wasn't good because there wasn't this long list of blacks on his record.

Dempsey did fight John Lester Johnson, a black light heavyweight, but apparently didn't come away without a few bruises.

was he a great body puncher ?
I wonder how many other fighters that he fought whose ribs he had broken ?

Caractacus wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

cfang wrote:Resurrected this old thread as I was interested in current views. For me wills would have beaten Dempsey when they were due to fight. Jack struggled with gibbons and Brennan whilst wills had a 50-60 fight winning run (apart from a dq). He was bigger, more active and I believe better anyway. Views?

I agree. I do have a dislike for Dempsey and feel he is incredibly overrated. So it's no surprise I'd pick the man he ducked for years to beat him, likely by UD.

why you dis-like Dempsey for man ?
Thats practicaly un-American.

I don't dislike Dempsey but he was overrated.