BoxRec

I know its been replayed a billion times ,and Dundee called it the anchor punch, But in your opinion was Liston actually hurt as bad as it seemed after getting hit by Alis right hand in Maine?

expug wrote:I know its been replayed a billion times ,and Dundee called it the anchor punch, But in your opinion was Liston actually hurt as bad as it seemed after getting hit by Alis right hand in Maine?

No, I don't think he was hurt. He was looking for an opportunity to bail out as he knew he was in for another whipping. He'd taken a better punch a bit earlier in the round and realised it was going to be no different to the 1st fight. He didn't fancy being made to look a mug again by Ali. Walcott and silly old Nat Fleisher spoilt his act somewhat.

Decagon wrote:Basically, you can look at this in one of two ways. Option 1: He threw the fight and bet on himself to lose. Option 2: He trained his heart out and got into perfect condition, but the fight was postponed, and he couldn't get in shape again.

Option 1 isn't a starter for me. No evidence. But then again there's a whole heap of people who think the moon landing were a hoax and some who believe the world is ruled by a race of shape-shifting aliens. I'd lay good money there's a few posters here who believe one or both of these 'theories'.

Option 2 is a bit more believable but the Liston shown at the weigh-in for the rematch looks well cut. I find it hard to believe he was THAT out of shape that he keeled over from what looks a fairly light punch. But, he took the shot, not me. Ali always claimed it was a great shot AFTER the bout was over but at the time he was motioning Liston to get up as if he knew he was faking.

I like option 3. Liston was fit and ready to rumble but mentally Ali owned him and he soon realised he was gonna end up looking like minced liver and decided to bail out.

It could be possible also that Liston was waiting for Ali to get to the corner. Ali was standing over him swingin his fists in the air, he may have thought Ali was going to sucker punch him. He should not have been counted out, untill Ali got to his corner.

Liston took a dive in maine, without doubt.

Lets face it, Ali wasnt superman. He hit plenty of fighters with worse chins than sonnny with better shots, and they didnt go down.

Liston fell over in maine and probably in Miami too.

Decagon wrote:There are 10 other options, of course. Some say Liston took a dive because he was threatened by the Nation of Islam. I'm at the point where I simply don't know what happened for sure in either Liston bout, but I think of it this way: without controversy, taking a dive is worse than quitting, quitting is worse than being knocked out, being knocked out is worse than losing a decision, losing a decision is worse than winning a decision, and winning a decision is worse than winning by knockout.

In general, of course.

Well said.

expug wrote:

Decagon wrote:There are 10 other options, of course. Some say Liston took a dive because he was threatened by the Nation of Islam. I'm at the point where I simply don't know what happened for sure in either Liston bout, but I think of it this way: without controversy, taking a dive is worse than quitting, quitting is worse than being knocked out, being knocked out is worse than losing a decision, losing a decision is worse than winning a decision, and winning a decision is worse than winning by knockout.

In general, of course.

Well said.

Interesting comments, in general.

However, I don't think quitting is necessarily wrong. For instance, if a bloke has tried his best and is getting a fekkin pounding, like Davey Moore vs Roberto Duran for instance, I'd much rather see him, or more importantly his corner, face the inevitable and retire on the stool rather than going out, in that instance, for 3 or 4 rounds too many. That was a fekkin awful beating he took for no conceivable purpose after the it was proven who was the better man that night. I certainly didn't enjoy his prolonged agony.

Decagon wrote:There are always exceptions. I really think that it's the boxer's job to fight, and the trainer's, referee's and doctor's job to determine that he can't fight anymore. Clay wanted to quit against Liston, but Dundee told him to box. Everyone wants to quit doing shit. We need people to keep us going.

Once it has been proven conclusively in a bout that one man is far superior what purpose does hanging in there simply absorbing a beaten serve? Theres nothing dignifying in my opinion for anyone involved when a guy is getting badly knocked around when he has no chance of winning.

I remember Micky Duff once saying something very interesting on TV after a bout in which the Spaniard Hernandez (I think) had quit in a EBU title bout after a 4 round pummeling at the hands of the hard-hitting (and underated) Boza Edwards. He said "It takes a certain amount of courage to quit in the ring." I think Duff had an interesting point.

Decagon wrote:It's the trainer's, the referee's and the doctor's job to determine that, not the fighter's.

Yes, that is correct, in general. And nowadays it usually happens. Thankfully. Not always though. Another one where a fellow took too much was Leavander Johnson's final bout. Did you find anything dignifying about his father sending his son out for several rounds after he was no more than a punch bag? And where was the referee and the doctor? See, your scenario can be more than a little dangerous. Not leaving a dignified surrender as an option closes an important door in a what can be a very dangerous game.

Sonny was a very bad actor, flopping around like a fish, waiting for Walcott to count him out. They wouldn't let him join the 8 man elimination tournament in 67. Couldn't trust him. Too bad, he might well have won it.