BoxRec

It seems that many posters feel that Tyson has at times shown a lack of heart when in tough fights. At what point do you feel he first showed a lack of it.

First time he couldnt' impose his will. Maybe in court?

At times I have also caught myself thinking Tyson lacked "heart"....then at other times I'm not so sure.

Perhaps the term "heart" is used for lack of a better term...

The reality is Tyson definitely took his beatings like a man (outside of looking to get DQ'd in the second Holyfield fight).

But in both his losses while in his prime to Douglas and Holyfield...he took both losses after having taken a beating for many rounds. It is not like he just layed down and looked for a way out. In both of those losses he was swingging with bad intent right up until the end.

Vs Lennox Tyson was a shell of his former self....but there again he did take his beating like a man for the most part.


So I'm not so sure if it is "heart" Tyson lacked.......but he certainly did not know how to handle a fighter who wasn't "scared" of him......Both Douglas and Holyfield showed no fear of Tyson from Round 1 on ....

Without a doubt Tyson was a front runner and was only as good as he was brave to an extent........If he thought you were scared or thought he was winning he would pile on.....

I think that really he fell out of love with boxing very young, during his first reign, after that he didn't seem to think it was worth it to keep it together when things got tough and would fight on dispiritedly, the McBride fight where he just flat gave up was merely the most extreme example of this imho.
He was no coward, he took all his beatings like a man but in the sense that he never battled through adversity and fought back harder when not having his way, he did lack heart, if it be defined that way.

Well my court statement speaks to his character to some degree. I think he stopped beleiving in himself about that time. He may well have truly been ashamed. That can change a person deeply. Not sure he ever dealt with that very well.

>>>and against Kevin McBride, and against Danny Williams. Face it. In five losses, he quit three times.<<<


No, he quit twice, when he was a broken down old man and then it wasn't because of him taking a beating, but rather because he was just completely exhausted. Anyone who thinks Tyson lacked heart need to watch Tyson-Holyfield I and Tyson-Lewis, both bouts Tyson was way past his prime and in both bouts he took a beating and took it like a man!

Decagon wrote:

meade95 wrote:The reality is Tyson definitely took his beatings like a man (outside of looking to get DQ'd in the second Holyfield fight).

... and against Kevin McBride, and against Danny Williams. Face it. In five losses, he quit three times.

Nope he was past his prime. Thats like saying Ali quit against Holmes

meade95 wrote:At times I have also caught myself thinking Tyson lacked "heart"....then at other times I'm not so sure.

Perhaps the term "heart" is used for lack of a better term...

The reality is Tyson definitely took his beatings like a man (outside of looking to get DQ'd in the second Holyfield fight).

But in both his losses while in his prime to Douglas and Holyfield...he took both losses after having taken a beating for many rounds. It is not like he just layed down and looked for a way out. In both of those losses he was swingging with bad intent right up until the end.

Vs Lennox Tyson was a shell of his former self....but there again he did take his beating like a man for the most part.


So I'm not so sure if it is "heart" Tyson lacked.......but he certainly did not know how to handle a fighter who wasn't "scared" of him......Both Douglas and Holyfield showed no fear of Tyson from Round 1 on ....

Without a doubt Tyson was a front runner and was only as good as he was brave to an extent........If he thought you were scared or thought he was winning he would pile on.....

I agree with this. It's more that he was psychologically brittle. He wasn't sacred of getting beaten up but he did lack true self-belief. He couldn't hold it together when he needed to.

>>>He wasn't sacred of getting beaten up but he did lack true self-belief. He couldn't hold it together when he needed to.<<<

I agree mostly with this, but he was able to hold it together for a few years...I don't think he would have ever been champion had he not been able to keep his mind intact for a while. Once he lost it though, he lost it for good, but like you said, I don't think he has ever had a true self-belief in himself.

barry wrote:>>>He wasn't sacred of getting beaten up but he did lack true self-belief. He couldn't hold it together when he needed to.<<<

I agree mostly with this, but he was able to hold it together for a few years...I don't think he would have ever been champion had he not been able to keep his mind intact for a while. Once he lost it though, he lost it for good, but like you said, I don't think he has ever had a true self-belief in himself.

You can see similarities with Liston and Foreman. The 3 of them were possibly the most intimidating champions ever but all seemed to lack psychological strength.

Foreman was different as an older man. He seemed to have resolved a lot of his problems. Tyson still has a punch. Maybe he'll come abck at 45 and score a 1 punch KO against the then champ. As much as I might criticise Mike I hope his future is more like George's than Sonny's.

>>>Foreman was different as an older man. He seemed to have resolved a lot of his problems. Tyson still has a punch. Maybe he'll come abck at 45 and score a 1 punch KO against the then champ. As much as I might criticise Mike I hope his future is more like George's than Sonny's.<<<

I don't see Tyson ever reaching the top again, but with the crop of heavyweights today anything is possible and like you said, he still can punch. I would like to see his future be more like Foreman's, but I expect to see a Liston-like ending to his life...possibly shot in some kind of scuffle on the street. I feel kind of sorry for Tyson to a point, but not for his financial problems...to go bankrupt after making 300+ million is, well it's beyond anything that I can think to say. I do feel sorry for him as to how so many people have taken advantage of him over the years, but pretty much everything else is on him.

Decagon wrote:

meade95 wrote:The reality is Tyson definitely took his beatings like a man (outside of looking to get DQ'd in the second Holyfield fight).

... and against Kevin McBride, and against Danny Williams. Face it. In five losses, he quit three times.

Well first off I said while Tyson was still in his prime years....and while still a force in boxing. Additionally Vs D. Williams Tyson had a torn ACL from which many others would have simply stopped fighting in round 2.

Suggesting how one goes out when they are a shell of their former self is not an accurate review of them. That would be like saying Ali heart is in question because he quit Vs Holmes (and Berbick too...I think).

I think he showed heart against Douglas after that he didnt show much heart. He was a bullyl

meade95 wrote:

Decagon wrote:

meade95 wrote:The reality is Tyson definitely took his beatings like a man (outside of looking to get DQ'd in the second Holyfield fight).

... and against Kevin McBride, and against Danny Williams. Face it. In five losses, he quit three times.

Well first off I said while Tyson was still in his prime years....and while still a force in boxing. Additionally Vs D. Williams Tyson had a torn ACL from which many others would have simply stopped fighting in round 2.

Suggesting how one goes out when they are a shell of their former self is not an accurate review of them. That would be like saying Ali heart is in question because he quit Vs Holmes (and Berbick too...I think).

Angelo Dundee called the fight with Holmes off, not Ali. And Ali didn't quit against Berbick. The fight itself was a competitive battle for the entire ten round distance, with Berbick having the edge.

Decagon wrote:Thanks, Evndrbsn. The press crucified Ali for "quitting" against Holmes, but anyone who saw the fight knew differently.

If it was up to Ali, I have no doubt he would have continued until he was carried out on a stretcher. Thats just the kind of fighter Ali was. He had no quit in him, even at the tail end of his career with Parkinson's syndrome kicking in. The same can't be said for the subject of this thread.

I'm thinkin there might be a different story to tell if Cus would have lived longer. But life is what it is.

certainly possible, but I thought Cus sort of helped him out in the character dept.

Decagon wrote:Thanks, Evndrbsn. The press crucified Ali for "quitting" against Holmes, but anyone who saw the fight knew differently.

And Fenech called off the fight Vs McBride then.......The reality is Ali wanted no more of that fight with Holmes....just as Tyson was done Vs McBride....(but yes, it was their corners that "officially" called the bout off).

But don't get me wrong....without a doubt Ali showed time and again the ability to over come adversity.....Tyson never did this.

Not really. Cus never made Tyson go to school, and didn't teach him any sort of responsibility for his actions.

says Decagon.

It was not Cus's job to send Mike to school. Mike was a graduate in the school of most fighters, reform school. But Cus believed in Tyson, and in that belief, Tyson thrived. Because Tyson felt he was somebody with Cus. Cus was no fool, and that is why Cus kept Tyson locked up in training camp in the Catskills. He knew Tyson was a lit fuse. Tyson came out to fight only. Tyson was full of rage, Cus could see that, and knew that. That rage channeled into the ring, along with his natural fighting skills is what made Tyson what he was. When Cus died the vultures started circling. Tyson held it together for a bit with some of the old training gang, but with no real mentor, he unraveled. If you watch his fights Tyson used to start everything out with a jab, then destroyed opponents with his combinations. After Cus was gone that started to go too. If Cus had lived 10 more years, Tyson would have been the HW champ well into the 90's. Cus was his confidence, and with his confidence came his heart.

I have seen Mike Tyson take some beatings, so I can't
say that he lacks heart. But I think that Tyson has only
a fraction of the dedication and desire possessed by
Evander Holyfield.

In Tyson's early days as a pro, he was fortunate that he had
Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton as his managers. Notice that Kevin
Rooney was Tyson's trainer during those years. I am not
saying that Rooney was a "hall-of-fame" trainer, but Tyson
was in shape and ready to fight during Rooney's time with
him.

Could it be that with Jacobs, Cayton, and Rooney had some
control over Tyson? After Jacobs died, Cayton and Rooney
were fired. Tyson's career went downhill afterwards.

- Chuck Johnston

Could it be that with Jacobs, Cayton, and Rooney had some
control over Tyson?

Exactly, and Cus was the leader of the whole gang, while alive.

expug wrote:It seems that many posters feel that Tyson has at times shown a lack of heart when in tough fights. At what point do you feel he first showed a lack of it.

Good question.

His lack of heart first showed in the first Holyfield fight, after Evander had decked him in the 6th & started pushing him around.

He started bitching & complaining to the ref & at one point he even tried to force a disqualification by banging his swollen eye into Holyfield's head.

He knew he was going to get KO'd & his distant lack of heart showed then for the first time.

>>>His lack of heart first showed in the first Holyfield fight, after Evander had decked him in the 6th & started pushing him around.<<<

That's nonsense! Tyson took his beating like a man for 11 rounds. If he had been losing heart he would have quit in the sixth round and not continued taking pretty severe punishment like he did. That statement is just untrue and unfounded.

Tyson never lacked heart until he was a broken down old man in the ring, and in all honesty, it's not a lack of heart as to why he has quit in his two last bouts...he just doesn't care if he does lose now at the advanced age he is at and if he doesn't score a knockout in three, or four rounds now then he is not going to really extend himself beyond that. Do you really think that Tyson, who took a beating for 11 rounds from Holyfield, or even the Tyson who took a beating for 8 rounds against Lewis lacked heart against a Danny Williams and Kevin McBride? Come on, that's just ridiculous to assume. All Tyson is in it for now is a payday. Tyson has never lacked heart in the ring!

barry wrote:>>>His lack of heart first showed in the first Holyfield fight, after Evander had decked him in the 6th & started pushing him around.<<<

That's nonsense! Tyson took his beating like a man for 11 rounds. If he had been losing heart he would have quit in the sixth round and not continued taking pretty severe punishment like he did. That statement is just untrue and unfounded.

Tyson never lacked heart until he was a broken down old man in the ring, and in all honesty, it's not a lack of heart as to why he has quit in his two last bouts...he just doesn't care if he does lose now at the advanced age he is at and if he doesn't score a knockout in three, or four rounds now then he is not going to really extend himself beyond that. Do you really think that Tyson, who took a beating for 11 rounds from Holyfield, or even the Tyson who took a beating for 8 rounds against Lewis lacked heart against a Danny Williams and Kevin McBride? Come on, that's just ridiculous to assume. All Tyson is in it for now is a payday. Tyson has never lacked heart in the ring!

I'm not talking nonsense. I firmly believe in what I say.

Tyson showed a distinct lack of heart in the 1st Holyfield fight.

Look at the fight again & you will see quite clearly that Tyson didn't fancy it anymore & was trying to force a DQ which in my opinion, is the actions of a fighter who lacks heart.

Tyson was 30 when this happened & he certainly wasn't washed up.[/list]

>>>Look at the fight again & you will see quite clearly that Tyson didn't fancy it anymore & was trying to force a DQ which in my opinion, is the actions of a fighter who lacks heart.<<<

That's just untrue and unfounded! Tyson wouldn't try to force a DQ, if he wanted a DQ he would have got a DQ. He took his beating like a man, nothing more, nothing less!

Tyson was 30 when this happened & he certainly wasn't washed up.[/list]


I never said he was washed-up! He looked very good leading up to the bout, but he most certainly was not in his prime any more!