Title Reigns vs Competition
Posted: 25 Feb 2006, 02:16
Joe Louis had 25 title defenses in 11yrs. He also before winning the title topped former champions Jack Sharkey, Max Baer and Primo Carnera.
After winning the title and when he retired Louis had fought 7 World champions (former, present and future)---when he came back he faced two more champions (Charles & Marciano, course Marciano would be a future champion).
Other than the defenses he had against:
Schmeling, Lewis, Conn (2x's), Walcott (2x's)---the mixed bag of Heavyweight contenders (or better yet pretenders) was very deep.
The era Louis fought in, in my opinion, is like the one ours is presently. Many hopeful Heavyweights, even more trialhorses and journeyman and of course ex-champions.
If Louis is the best Heavyweight there ever was, let's just say for sake of argument, then how would other championships reigns match up to Louis'?
Larry Holmes had 20 successful title defenses, almost as great as Louis' and he was almost 49-0, like Marciano was. But let's look at Holmes' defenses, and see if Holmes can out do Louis.
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Holmes faced 6 future/former Heavyweight champions when he was Champion. Those of course were Ali, Berbick, Smith, Weaver, Witherspoon, and Leon Spinks.
He lost the title to Michael Spinks so that is 7 champions. He made several comebacks throughout the years. Facing Tyson, Holyfield, Mercer and McCall---so that is 11 future/current/former champions Holmes faced.
But outside of those future champs---Holmes defended his title against one LEGIT force and that was Earnie Shavers, and you could argue even throwing in Gerry Cooney as well...but outside of that, Holmes fought bums.
Also throw in the fact LOUIS was the UNDISPUTED champion, while Holmes was only the WBC champion for a time, and later was awarded the IBF title---but never unified the titles at any one time.
Plus, look really at the future champs Holmes did face---you might as well cut down their signifance in half---so if you add it all up and weigh all the evidence---Louis still out does Holmes.
Another way of looking at it---all the future/current/former champs Louis faced in his entire career were all Hall of Famers---not even a handfull of Holmes opposition have yet been placed into a Hall of Fame ballot, let alone argued to have put in there---with exception of Tyson, Holyfield and the Spinks bros and Ali.
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Other title reigns to look over and compare with are Muhammad Ali's 3 seperate title reigns. From Liston to being exiled---Foreman to Spinks---and regaining from Spinks, Ali faced a helluva lot of great fighters.
Ali himself fought 11 current/former/future Heavyweight/Light Heavyweight champions. The list goes as follows:
Moore, Patterson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Ellis, Terrell, Holmes, Spinks, Berbick and Foster.
Now in each title reign (the first) he faced, Liston, Patterson and Terrell, as well as a few European champions.
In the second reign he faced just Frazier, and of course a few European ex/current/future champs---and then of course he lost it to Spinks and then regained it back.
Ali fought the most of the most legit fighters in between his title reigns. Plus throw in a couple defenses he had against worthy opponents with solid records, and of course a few "bum of the months" like Wepner and Evangelista and Dunn and Coopman.
Now like I said before with Holmes, well this is going to be in reverse---most of Louis' opponents were bums, so their value will be cut in half---so divide 21 (cus Louis' best opponents were the four posted previously) in half---and add that to the four...
LOUIS would still get a higher rating than ALI, 14.5 to Ali's 11---but consider since Ali also fought alot of great European champs as well as better contenders than what Louis had---add up another 5 points for Ali and it would be ALI that beat LOUIS 16 to 14.5
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Anyone's thoughts?
After winning the title and when he retired Louis had fought 7 World champions (former, present and future)---when he came back he faced two more champions (Charles & Marciano, course Marciano would be a future champion).
Other than the defenses he had against:
Schmeling, Lewis, Conn (2x's), Walcott (2x's)---the mixed bag of Heavyweight contenders (or better yet pretenders) was very deep.
The era Louis fought in, in my opinion, is like the one ours is presently. Many hopeful Heavyweights, even more trialhorses and journeyman and of course ex-champions.
If Louis is the best Heavyweight there ever was, let's just say for sake of argument, then how would other championships reigns match up to Louis'?
Larry Holmes had 20 successful title defenses, almost as great as Louis' and he was almost 49-0, like Marciano was. But let's look at Holmes' defenses, and see if Holmes can out do Louis.
***************************************************
Holmes faced 6 future/former Heavyweight champions when he was Champion. Those of course were Ali, Berbick, Smith, Weaver, Witherspoon, and Leon Spinks.
He lost the title to Michael Spinks so that is 7 champions. He made several comebacks throughout the years. Facing Tyson, Holyfield, Mercer and McCall---so that is 11 future/current/former champions Holmes faced.
But outside of those future champs---Holmes defended his title against one LEGIT force and that was Earnie Shavers, and you could argue even throwing in Gerry Cooney as well...but outside of that, Holmes fought bums.
Also throw in the fact LOUIS was the UNDISPUTED champion, while Holmes was only the WBC champion for a time, and later was awarded the IBF title---but never unified the titles at any one time.
Plus, look really at the future champs Holmes did face---you might as well cut down their signifance in half---so if you add it all up and weigh all the evidence---Louis still out does Holmes.
Another way of looking at it---all the future/current/former champs Louis faced in his entire career were all Hall of Famers---not even a handfull of Holmes opposition have yet been placed into a Hall of Fame ballot, let alone argued to have put in there---with exception of Tyson, Holyfield and the Spinks bros and Ali.
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Other title reigns to look over and compare with are Muhammad Ali's 3 seperate title reigns. From Liston to being exiled---Foreman to Spinks---and regaining from Spinks, Ali faced a helluva lot of great fighters.
Ali himself fought 11 current/former/future Heavyweight/Light Heavyweight champions. The list goes as follows:
Moore, Patterson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Ellis, Terrell, Holmes, Spinks, Berbick and Foster.
Now in each title reign (the first) he faced, Liston, Patterson and Terrell, as well as a few European champions.
In the second reign he faced just Frazier, and of course a few European ex/current/future champs---and then of course he lost it to Spinks and then regained it back.
Ali fought the most of the most legit fighters in between his title reigns. Plus throw in a couple defenses he had against worthy opponents with solid records, and of course a few "bum of the months" like Wepner and Evangelista and Dunn and Coopman.
Now like I said before with Holmes, well this is going to be in reverse---most of Louis' opponents were bums, so their value will be cut in half---so divide 21 (cus Louis' best opponents were the four posted previously) in half---and add that to the four...
LOUIS would still get a higher rating than ALI, 14.5 to Ali's 11---but consider since Ali also fought alot of great European champs as well as better contenders than what Louis had---add up another 5 points for Ali and it would be ALI that beat LOUIS 16 to 14.5
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Anyone's thoughts?