BoxRec

This is a true battle of sluggers! Both men were bobbers and weavers and tremendous body punchers, and had high kayo percentages. Both were tough as nails and both have the stigma of being 2nd to none.

Dempsey was voted "greatest fighter first half of the century" and Marciano's legend as being 49-0, the only Heavyweight undefeated, seem to be what made these men into such great legends.

Dempsey had a 66-6-9 (50) record, his greatest fights were against Willard, Firpo and Tunney---having problems with movers through out his entire career---was a giant killer beating men in excess of 200 pounds when the division was 176 and up---was in the era when rules were that whenever a fighter got on his knees you could hit them down again---his record was 0-2 when the record changed when he faced Tunney.

Marciano was 49-0 (43), having great battles against Charles, Walcott, Moore, LaStarza---also had problems with movers throughout his career, but his devastating punching power and body punching ability as well as his bobbing and weaving skills wore down his opponents.

There are several deep details of each of these fighters, but we all as boxing authorities in our own right, know these men rather well. So who do you think would win?

Picture the scene....Madison Square Garden "The Mecca"...15 rounds for the Heavyweight Championship of the World...Dempsey's title and legacy on the line....as is Marciano's. The Winner is determined to be the GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT SLUGGER OF ALL TIME...and contract is in the works whomever wins this faces The Great John L. Sullivan in their first defense. (let's be imaginative here lol)

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:This is a true battle of sluggers! Both men were bobbers and weavers and tremendous body punchers, and had high kayo percentages. Both were tough as nails and both have the stigma of being 2nd to none.

Dempsey was voted "greatest fighter first half of the century" and Marciano's legend as being 49-0, the only Heavyweight undefeated, seem to be what made these men into such great legends.

Dempsey had a 66-6-9 (50) record, his greatest fights were against Willard, Firpo and Tunney---having problems with movers through out his entire career---was a giant killer beating men in excess of 200 pounds when the division was 176 and up---was in the era when rules were that whenever a fighter got on his knees you could hit them down again---his record was 0-2 when the record changed when he faced Tunney.

Marciano was 49-0 (43), having great battles against Charles, Walcott, Moore, LaStarza---also had problems with movers throughout his career, but his devastating punching power and body punching ability as well as his bobbing and weaving skills wore down his opponents.

There are several deep details of each of these fighters, but we all as boxing authorities in our own right, know these men rather well. So who do you think would win?

Picture the scene....Madison Square Garden "The Mecca"...15 rounds for the Heavyweight Championship of the World...Dempsey's title and legacy on the line....as is Marciano's. The Winner is determined to be the GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT SLUGGER OF ALL TIME...and contract is in the works whomever wins this faces The Great John L. Sullivan in their first defense. (let's be imaginative here lol)

You are confused about what this rule was really about. A man on his knees could never be struck legally. Hell, I don't think you could hit a man who was on his knees even under London Prize Ring rules!

Over rated Marciano beats the shit out of pathetically over rated Dempsey.

Tantum wrote:Over rated Marciano beats the shit out of pathetically over rated Dempsey.

I believe this fight would be a 15 round draw with both fighters being badly hospitalized and possibly being ruined because of this fight. i see each men getting knocked down about 4 times and this fight would turn into a non stop blood and guts brawl. at times, both fighters may turn tactical and sit back boxing, but eventually the fight will go right back into a slugout with neither man refusing to budge. dempseys best stradegy would be to box a lot in this fight, but knowing dempseys fighting heart, he will go to drawn into war with marciano.

possibly the greatest fight of all time right here

You are confused about what this rule was really about. A man on his knees could never be struck legally. Hell, I don't think you could hit a man who was on his knees even under London Prize Ring rules!

London Prize Ring Rules were whenever a man went down the round was over---how else do you expect that John L. Sullivan and several others fought 75 to 200 round bouts?

And WATCH the Jess Willard vs Jack Dempsey fight, everytime Willard got to one knee Dempsey just beat the living hell out of him. It was legal to do so back then. That rule changed before Dempsey fought Tunney for the second time---where they invented the neutral corner rule, which ironically Dempsey supported but after knocking down Tunney he would not go to his corner, hence the infamous "long count".

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:

You are confused about what this rule was really about. A man on his knees could never be struck legally. Hell, I don't think you could hit a man who was on his knees even under London Prize Ring rules!

London Prize Ring Rules were whenever a man went down the round was over---how else do you expect that John L. Sullivan and several others fought 75 to 200 round bouts?

And WATCH the Jess Willard vs Jack Dempsey fight, everytime Willard got to one knee Dempsey just beat the living hell out of him. It was legal to do so back then. That rule changed before Dempsey fought Tunney for the second time---where they invented the neutral corner rule, which ironically Dempsey supported but after knocking down Tunney he would not go to his corner, hence the infamous "long count".

I am aware of the rules regarding the end of a round.

I am talking about hitting a man when he was down.

Are you seriously saying the it was legal to hit a man who was on one knee at the time of the Dempsey - Willard fight?

Yes or no?

Over rated Marciano beats the shit out of pathetically over rated Dempsey.

Ditto.

Yes it was legal---else if it wasnt they would have stopped the brutal beating Willard was getting and Dempsey lose by DQ.

Myself I don't know who would win this, both men were powerful and good bobbing and weaving fighters---tough as nails---dempsey was faster, but Marciano was a greater puncher (my opinion anyways).

I think it would be a tremendous fight, both men knocking eachother down, blood everywhere---these two weren't boxer types and they never backed off a man either---sooner or later I think someone would lose by KO, but who it would be I can't really say.

Both men in their careers could get up off the floor and win---BUT---Dempsey early in his career was stopped by Fireman Jim Flynn, and was knocked down a few other times in his career.

So that makes me draw up to the conclusion that yes both men would hit the canvas, but if it be anyone who would stay down---it be Dempsey.

I will never say Dempsey is over-rated, cus in his time, nobody fought like he did and SINCE him not many has taken boxing to the ferocity and violence as the Manassa Mauler., and for the time period not many men had as high a KO percentage, as most fights were NC's and decisions.

I also think Marciano would have an edge over Dempsey---only in the aspect that Dempsey's toughest fight was against Tommy Gibbons, Dempsey could do NOTHING with him---sure he won the decision, but he wasn't able to definately beat the man.

Marciano beat Charles and Walcott and Moore, some of the best skillful Heavies and Light Heavies of all time with relative ease---the only man to give him trouble was LaStarza, but in their rematch Marciano beat LaStarza so bad that the blood vessels in Roland's arms had burst, as he tried to protect himself.

Dempsey proved he could do little or nothing with Gene Tunney in both fights really---and you can make the argument Dempsey was getting old---well so was Marciano (too short, too clumsy and too old) and he still beat the best movers of his era.

Course Dempsey tried to make a comeback in the 30's, and fought over 100 exhibitions---until he was embarassed by King Levinsky, and gave up his comeback dream. And even then, such men as Meyers KO Christener when he fought Dempsey in exhibitions, was hit so hard that they had to pry his lower jaw from out of the roof of his mouth! And Christener was a rising top prospect at that.

It would be hard to say who would win...but I'll say Marciano wins by either a late round knockout or by decision.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:I believe this fight would be a 15 round draw with both fighters being badly hospitalized and possibly being ruined because of this fight. i see each men getting knocked down about 4 times and this fight would turn into a non stop blood and guts brawl. at times, both fighters may turn tactical and sit back boxing, but eventually the fight will go right back into a slugout with neither man refusing to budge. dempseys best stradegy would be to box a lot in this fight, but knowing dempseys fighting heart, he will go to drawn into war with marciano.

possibly the greatest fight of all time right here

I sense you have a few splinters in your bottom now after that statement!!.... hope its a comfortable fence....

Both men in their careers could get up off the floor and win---BUT---Dempsey early in his career was stopped by Fireman Jim Flynn, and was knocked down a few other times in his career.

The Flynn fight is widely recognized as a dive, and contemporary observers didn't think it was a very convincing one either. Dempsey immediately took his payday and left the Rocky Mountain region for California.

I also think Marciano would have an edge over Dempsey---only in the aspect that Dempsey's toughest fight was against Tommy Gibbons, Dempsey could do NOTHING with him---sure he won the decision, but he wasn't able to definately beat the man.

Dempsey won between 10 and 13 rounds of their 15 round bout. He just mauled Gibbons inside, and it wasn't particularly close. If Gibbons wasn't such a brilliant defensive fighter himself he'd have been toast.

Dempsey proved he could do little or nothing with Gene Tunney in both fights really---and you can make the argument Dempsey was getting old---well so was Marciano (too short, too clumsy and too old) and he still beat the best movers of his era.

Dempsey had over 100 fights under his belt by the time he fought Tunney, while Marciano had fewer than half as many bouts by the time he retired. Tunney, of course, was an all-time great himself, and at a prime 29 years old when he met Dempsey. Charles, Walcott, and Moore were all in their mid-30s and on the downside of their careers when they faced Marciano.

Dempsey was faster, more technically sound, and had knockout power in both hands. He simply brings more to the table than Marciano.

Dempseys powerful but wide punches worked well against big lumbering fighters than against fighters who were his size and had good technical skills. When he was forced to throw straight punches at fighter with some technical skills like Brennan, Gibbons and even fat willie Meehan, he didnt look anywhere near as devastating.
Dempsey would come rushing into Marciano throwing those powerful but wide punches and get caught by a devastating Suzie Q for his efforts.
Carpanteir staggered him badlywith a straight right hand, and so did Brennan. Marciano's would have much more effect.

Marciano ko early.

Dempseys powerful but wide punches worked well against big lumbering fighters than against fighters who were his size and had good technical skills. When he was forced to throw straight punches at fighter with some technical skills like Brennan, Gibbons and even fat willie Meehan, he didnt look anywhere near as devastating.

I've always considered Dempsey's bread-n-butter to be inside in the clinch. He brutalized Brennan in their title fight with bodywork, I don't see many "powerful but wide punches" on display there. That short little shovel-hook right was landing every round and that's a murderous body shot to have to absorb in every clinch. Dempsey also had great uppercuts in the clinch. I think this is one of Dempsey's most impressive efforts on-film.

He brutalized Brennan in their title fight with bodywork, I don't see many "powerful but wide punches" on display there.

Thats my point. When Dempsey tried to throw those bombs early it was ineffective. In fact early in the fight Brennan countered him beautifully which forced him to change his attack. Marciano in that situation may not have left him off the hook.

To be a fair stand-up boxing match, in a twenty-four foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
No wrestling or hugging allowed.
The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
If either man fall through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, ten seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed, and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to scratch in the ten seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favor of the other man.
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality, and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down, and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
No shoes or boots with springs allowed.
The contest in all other respects to be governed by the revised rules of the London Prize Ring.

******************************************************

The Marquis of Queensbury Rules. But I swear when I heard the commentary on the Dempsey Willard bout they said there was no Neutral corner rule.

Course Willard was on the ropes most times, or holding on to them, so I guess that is ok---considering the rules said so. Course the Marquis of Queensbury rules did not state that a man couldnt stand over a fallen fighter---and if he got up off both knees---you could strike him again.

So sorry if I mistook something, but nonetheless the rules didnt say you couldnt stand over a fallen fighter and when they got up off their knees you couldnt hit them.

That rule wasnt made until the 2nd Dempsey-Tunney fight.

I see this going pretty much the way IrishRufusMurphy sees it.
The point , Rocky's will emerges victorious. I see it going pretty much this way also if Rocky were to meet Jeffries or Frazier. Tyson would go much earlier.
Liston & Foreman would give Rocky trouble. Rocky would have to deal with their left hand, & the Liston left was about the best ever. Ali would give Rocky hell too, no explanation necessary. Louis? I like Rocky. Louis would have to take him out. I don't think he could. The moderns? Holmes
would be difficult, but if Holmes couldn't beat Tyson , well enuff said. Holyfield & Bowe , good, but not good enough. Tunney got lucky against Dempsey. Rocky would turn this one into a war, Gene would want no part of. Jack Johnson. Now this is a guy who I think could beat Marciano.
Not that he would though.
I see Ali, Liston, Foreman, Johnson & perhaps Louis with having a shot against Rocky. But that's it. Not that they would beat him, they would have a chance of beating him. A fight against Marciano tests a mans limits.
I think Ali & Johnson would have the best chance of beating him, because they could match or almost match his mental toughness. People on these posts who belittle Rocky have no idea how great he was. A gentleman too, of course you would expect that from a guy like Rocky.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:To be a fair stand-up boxing match, in a twenty-four foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
No wrestling or hugging allowed.
The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
If either man fall through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, ten seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed, and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to scratch in the ten seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favor of the other man.
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality, and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down, and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
No shoes or boots with springs allowed.
The contest in all other respects to be governed by the revised rules of the London Prize Ring.

******************************************************

The Marquis of Queensbury Rules. But I swear when I heard the commentary on the Dempsey Willard bout they said there was no Neutral corner rule.

Course Willard was on the ropes most times, or holding on to them, so I guess that is ok---considering the rules said so. Course the Marquis of Queensbury rules did not state that a man couldnt stand over a fallen fighter---and if he got up off both knees---you could strike him again.

So sorry if I mistook something, but nonetheless the rules didnt say you couldnt stand over a fallen fighter and when they got up off their knees you couldnt hit them.

That rule wasnt made until the 2nd Dempsey-Tunney fight.

OK, so now you are clear on what constitutes a fighter being down.

We are making progress.

The part I like in the rules is the rule that states ,no shoes or boots with springs allowed. Imagine Pattersons leaping lefthook if they didnt make this rule.

theone wrote:

He brutalized Brennan in their title fight with bodywork, I don't see many "powerful but wide punches" on display there.

Thats my point. When Dempsey tried to throw those bombs early it was ineffective. In fact early in the fight Brennan countered him beautifully which forced him to change his attack. Marciano in that situation may not have left him off the hook.

No offense, but claiming Dempsey had to resort to a "Plan B" to thrash Brennan isn't exactly a put-down. Against Tommy Gibbons Dempsey tried scientific boxing for a few rounds but wasn't up to the task of boxing with Gibbons, so he switched to the body attach and dominated the fight. Being able to successfully switch strategies in mid-fight is a desirable trait, not a disadvantage.

Marciano would be in no position to determine whether or not somebody got "off the hook", given that he lacked a "Plan B" to begin with. An ancient Walcott went 13 with Marciano, was leading on all scorecards in the 13th, and even knocked him to the canvas, but we're supposed to believe that Rocky was such a monster that he'd plow through Brennan with ease, unlike poor Dempsey? Color me skeptical.

Rocky were to meet Jeffries or Frazier. Tyson would go much earlier.

Jefferies yes. But Frazier and Tyson would have battered and ko'd both Dempsey and Marciano.

Liston & Foreman would give Rocky trouble

Rocky would have trouble just getting out the first round with these two.

Holmes would be difficult, but if Holmes couldn't beat Tyson , well enuff said.

Dont we judge head to head fights based on a fighters prime? If I remember correctly Holmes was past his when he fought Tyson. Come to think of it that Holmes probably still would have beaten Marciano.

Holyfield & Bowe , good, but not good enough.

More than good enough actually.

Jack Johnson. Now this is a guy who I think could beat Marciano.
Not that he would though.

Again we disagree. Rocky would have ko'd the even more overrated Johnson.

i know how ur thought process works theone,



u think pre 1960 the clear two best heavyweights are marciano and louis. the reason being they have the most modern style of the pre 160 heavyweight greats correct??


it also appears they are to the only two u consider giving a chance against some of the post 1960 great heavies?


well i disagree with ur opinion, but i respect it!




one thing i want you to retract is the holmes who fought tyson could beat marciano. how can i even respond to this, i mean come on man!

u think pre 1960 the clear two best heavyweights are marciano and louis. the reason being they have the most modern style of the pre 160 heavyweight greats correct??

Correct.

it also appears they are to the only two u consider giving a chance against some of the post 1960 great heavies?

Greats? Yes. I do believe that some of their contemporaries would have been competative against top contenders and paper champs in later eras. For instance I can see Scxhmeling beating Terrell or Ellis. Just not Frazier or Holmes.

well i disagree with ur opinion, but i respect it!

I respective you opinions too, You'r'e a fun and intelligent sparring
partner.
By the way, Fullmer/Robinson 4 tonight on espn classic, 8pm est.
I think this fight is historically significant because it was in my opinion Robinsons swan song as a serious force in the sport.
If you read this Boxbuzz please share your opinion.

Collins2000 wrote:

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:To be a fair stand-up boxing match, in a twenty-four foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
No wrestling or hugging allowed.
The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
If either man fall through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, ten seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed, and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to scratch in the ten seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favor of the other man.
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality, and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down, and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
No shoes or boots with springs allowed.
The contest in all other respects to be governed by the revised rules of the London Prize Ring.

******************************************************

The Marquis of Queensbury Rules. But I swear when I heard the commentary on the Dempsey Willard bout they said there was no Neutral corner rule.

Course Willard was on the ropes most times, or holding on to them, so I guess that is ok---considering the rules said so. Course the Marquis of Queensbury rules did not state that a man couldnt stand over a fallen fighter---and if he got up off both knees---you could strike him again.

So sorry if I mistook something, but nonetheless the rules didnt say you couldnt stand over a fallen fighter and when they got up off their knees you couldnt hit them.

That rule wasnt made until the 2nd Dempsey-Tunney fight.

OK, so now you are clear on what constitutes a fighter being down.

We are making progress.

I just wanted to make a point about the neutral corner rule. I'm not sure exactly when the rule was adopted but it was well before the Dempsey-Tunney fight. There is a picture of the 1921 Carpentier-Dempsey fight, where Carpentier was down, and Dempsey was far away from him in a neutral corner.
In the 1923 Dempsey-Firpo fight, Dempsey didn't wait in a neutral corner to hit Firpo again after he had knocked him down. The rule wasn't enforced in this fight for some reason.
The Tunney-Dempsey fights were in 1926 and 1927, and the rule was enforced against Dempsey.
I'm not sure if the rule was in effect for the Dempsey-Willard fight in 1919, if it was, it obviously wasn't enforced.

theone wrote:

Rocky were to meet Jeffries or Frazier. Tyson would go much earlier.

Jefferies yes. But Frazier and Tyson would have battered and ko'd both Dempsey and Marciano.

Tyson would never beat Rocky. He'd quit cold. Dempsey either, Rocky outlasts & outguts him. Frazier vs. Marciano would be a war. I think of the trouble Joe had with Bonavena. I think Rocky would beat him, but no guarantees.

Liston & Foreman would give Rocky trouble[/quote

Rocky would have trouble just getting out the first round with these two.
You forget Leotis Martin & Ron Lyle. If they could put these guys down, then Rocky would put them out. One other thing, Marciano was the best cinditioned fighter that ever lived. The longer it goes, the better.

Holmes would be difficult, but if Holmes couldn't beat Tyson , well enuff said.

Dont we judge head to head fights based on a fighters prime? If I remember correctly Holmes was past his when he fought Tyson. Come to think of it that Holmes probably still would have beaten Marciano.

Yaw right, Just like all the others who beat him. Nobody beat Rocky. It's funny how many now can.

Holyfield & Bowe , good, but not good enough.

More than good enough actually.
[quote
Louis, Walcott, Charles & Moore... all hall of famers, alltime greats all of them. How many hall of famers has Bowe beaten?
]
Jack Johnson. Now this is a guy who I think could beat Marciano.
Not that he would though.

Again we disagree. Rocky would have ko'd the even more overrated Johnson.

If he caught him, right. Yes. Johnson had everything. Fleischer thought so.

Back to thew original post about Dempsey-Marciano. This would be a hard fight to predict. It could be like a heavyweight version of Graziano-Zale. There would defintely be a lot of action. Dempsey was a fast starter, and had the better defense. He would have a chance of taking out Marciano early. However, it's probably a little more likely that Marciano would weather the storm and stop Dempsey in the middle rounds. Marciano did have the better chin and probably an edge in stamina.
There is a possibility that it could go 15 rounds,but is unlikely. There would just be too many hard shots landed.
If they fought 10 times, I think Marciano wins 6.