BoxRec

OK Martin. I'll take a stab at it:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Pascual Perez
3. Nicolino Locche
4. Horacio Accavallo
5. Victor Galindez
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Juan Roldan
8. Julio Cesar Vazquez
9. Eduardo Lausse
10. Justo Suarez

with honorable mention going out to Jose Maria Gatica, Pedro Decima, Luis Firpo.

I know I'm probably forgeting a few guys!

Hello, Nero3000! Your list is good, and is very good your idea of this All Time Ratings; here I repeats the list as is in Wail!, the excellent CBZ magazine of September 2004, is this:

1 Pascual Pérez
2 Nicolino Locche
3 Carlos Monzón
4 Luis Firpo
5 Justo Suárez
6 Horacio Accavallo
7 Julio Mocoroa
8 Jorge Fernández
9 José Carattoli
10 Eduardo Lausse

Sincerelly, it isn't easy the number 11, you must to choose between this: Santos Laciar, Gustavo Ballas, Luis Rayo, José Gatica, Alfredo Prada, Vicente Derado, Federico Thompson, Raúl Landini, Rafael Merentino, Hugo Corro, Raúl Rodríguez, Jorge Castro, Víctor Galíndez, Jorge Ahumada, Miguel Cuello, Oscar Bonavena, Gregorio Peralta... Each one of this boys may be the number 11

Is good your clasification, but are very high Juan Roldán and Julio Vázquez, and they weren't better than Justo Suárez and Eduardo Lausse; and in your honorable mention, why isn't Gregorio Peralta, or Carattoli, Merentino, Prada or Laciar? With my best wishes and gratitude for your interest in the Argentinian boxing

Nero3000 wrote:OK Martin. I'll take a stab at it:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Pascual Perez
3. Nicolino Locche
4. Horacio Accavallo
5. Victor Galindez
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Juan Roldan
8. Julio Cesar Vazquez
9. Eduardo Lausse
10. Justo Suarez

with honorable mention going out to Jose Maria Gatica, Pedro Decima, Luis Firpo.

I know I'm probably forgeting a few guys!

Santos Laciar should be ahead of all those blokes from 6 down.

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:Hello, Nero3000! Your list is good, and is very good your idea of this All Time Ratings; here I repeats the list as is in Wail!, the excellent CBZ magazine of September 2004, is this:

1 Pascual Pérez
2 Nicolino Locche
3 Carlos Monzón
4 Luis Firpo
5 Justo Suárez
6 Horacio Accavallo
7 Julio Mocoroa
8 Jorge Fernández
9 José Carattoli
10 Eduardo Lausse

Sincerelly, it isn't easy the number 11, you must to choose between this: Santos Laciar, Gustavo Ballas, Luis Rayo, José Gatica, Alfredo Prada, Vicente Derado, Federico Thompson, Raúl Landini, Rafael Merentino, Hugo Corro, Raúl Rodríguez, Jorge Castro, Víctor Galíndez, Jorge Ahumada, Miguel Cuello, Oscar Bonavena, Gregorio Peralta... Each one of this boys may be the number 11

Is good your clasification, but are very high Juan Roldán and Julio Vázquez, and they weren't better than Justo Suárez and Eduardo Lausse; and in your honorable mention, why isn't Gregorio Peralta, or Carattoli, Merentino, Prada or Laciar? With my best wishes and gratitude for your interest in the Argentinian boxing

Hola Martin!

I put Roldan over Lausse based on his performances against Hagler and Hearns. Both great champs said Juan gave them their toughest fights. Both were rocked right down to their socks by "El Martillo". I thought he was gonna break Hearns in half! Plus Juan had victories over top middleweights like Frank Fletcher, James Kinchen, Nathan Mann and a victory over former Light Heavyweight champion JB Williamson.

Vazquez, if my memory serves, had 10 title defenses, including wins over tough former champion Aaron Davis and over current champion Winky Wright. Not bad, huh?

I forgot Eduardo Corletti, too!

I'm not knocking him, but I've never understood why Argentinians rate Firpo so high. Granted he was Argentina's first boxing hero, which gives him considerable historical significance. But if you compare his record to Bonavena's there is really no comparison. Firpo's biggest claim was sending Dempsey through the ropes. But he was knocked out in 2 rounds! Oscar on the other hand gave both Ali and Joe Frazier their toughest fights up to that point. He gave Frazier 25 rounds of hell in their two fights. He busted Ali up good, too. He fought Floyd Patterson with only one useable hand, but still floored him and lost a close decision. He beat top contenders like George Chuvalo, Karl Mildenberger, Leotis Martin, Zora Folley, Gregorio Peralta and Al "Blue" Lewis.

Why does Luis rate higher than Oscar in the eyes of Argentina? Maybe you can help me understand.

Best to you!

Ay corumba !!! How on earth could you guys leave out Juan Martin Coggi. Along with Santos Laciar he definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Seamus wrote:Ay corumba !!! How on earth could you guys leave out Juan Martin Coggi. Along with Santos Laciar he definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Just out of curiosity, who on my list would you remove to put those two on?

Nero

I'd put Coggi and Laciar above everyone on the list except your top 4.

Coggi went 75-5-2 (44 ko's) was never stopped in his career, was a two time world titlist and was 13-3 (8 ko's) in world title bouts.

Laciar won world titles at two weights, was 12-3-1 (8 ko's) in title fights, and was never stopped in 101 bouts.

Seamus wrote:Nero

I'd put Coggi and Laciar above everyone on the list except your top 4.

Coggi went 75-5-2 (44 ko's) was never stopped in his career, was a two time world titlist and was 13-3 (8 ko's) in world title bouts.

Laciar won world titles at two weights, was 12-3-1 (8 ko's) in title fights, and was never stopped in 101 bouts.

Hard to argue with those credentials. About a decade ago Carlos Irusta- who is The Ring's Argentine correspondent- made a best of Argentina list. It went like this:

1. Perez
2. Monzon
3. Gatica
4. Luis Frederico Thompson
5. Suarez
6. Locche
7. Lausse
8. Galindez
9. Accavallo
10. Firpo

I didn't necessarily agree with him, but it was interesting and got me thinking.

Is good the rating of Carlos Irusta, but I thinks that he forget José Carattoli (who scored a draw and a win over Tommy Loughran, between others) and Jorge Fernández; Gatica is very high if we don't see Alfredo Prada; as amateurs and pro, they fought six times, winning three each one (as amateur, Prada knocked out Gatica, but the result was changed and Gatica was procclaimed the winner by disqualification). I was from 1967 to 1974 correspondent of Boxing Illustrated, and I wrote the first work over Monzón in the United States, and, with the exception of Suárez and Firpo, I don't see another great names of the old Argentinian boxing history in that ratings

My Top 10

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Pascual Perez
3. Nicolino Locche
4. Horacio Accavallo
5. Juan Martin Coggi
6. Santos Laciar
7. Jorge Fernando Castro
8. Victor Galindez
9. Julio Cesar Vasquez
10. Sergio Palma

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:Hello, Nero3000! Your list is good, and is very good your idea of this All Time Ratings; here I repeats the list as is in Wail!, the excellent CBZ magazine of September 2004, is this:

1 Pascual Pérez
2 Nicolino Locche
3 Carlos Monzón
4 Luis Firpo
5 Justo Suárez
6 Horacio Accavallo
7 Julio Mocoroa
8 Jorge Fernández
9 José Carattoli
10 Eduardo Lausse

Sincerelly, it isn't easy the number 11, you must to choose between this: Santos Laciar, Gustavo Ballas, Luis Rayo, José Gatica, Alfredo Prada, Vicente Derado, Federico Thompson, Raúl Landini, Rafael Merentino, Hugo Corro, Raúl Rodríguez, Jorge Castro, Víctor Galíndez, Jorge Ahumada, Miguel Cuello, Oscar Bonavena, Gregorio Peralta... Each one of this boys may be the number 11

Is good your clasification, but are very high Juan Roldán and Julio Vázquez, and they weren't better than Justo Suárez and Eduardo Lausse; and in your honorable mention, why isn't Gregorio Peralta, or Carattoli, Merentino, Prada or Laciar? With my best wishes and gratitude for your interest in the Argentinian boxing

Whatever happened to Fabian Tejeda? I had high hopes for this kid a decade ago. And this new fellow who beat Zab Judah. He looks tough.

I am looking for any memorabilia(magazines, pictures, etc) on Oscar Bonavena and Nicolino Locche, so if you know anywhere in Argentina that I might find some -please let me know!*s*

Seamus,
your rating is good, I'm glad for your interest and how to appreciate the Argentinian boxing, but, seeing all this ratings, I had a big preoccupation: with exceptions (Firpo or Suárez), nobody put great names of the rich history of the Argentinian boxing from 1900 to 1950, why? May be that the responsibles of this trouble are the Argentinian and his most younger newspapers, who don't knows much of the boxing of more than 30 years ago in Argentina; I thinks like you on the three best!

Nero,
Tejeda, as Juan Roldán, only had a good punch, and nothing more... I can't understand how Tejeda win the South American title obtained by better fighters, like Alfredo Prada, Sergio Salvia, Nicolino Locche, Aro, Rambaldi, Venerdini... is the decline of all the international titles (there is a lot of "toy titles"!) The boy who beat Z. Judah is an excellent fighter, Carlos Baldomir; he look very good!

Martin

I'm curious to know. What Argentinian fighters from the past do you feel deserved a shot at a world title but were denied ?

Thanks

Seamus,

As I remember, before the '50 all the Argentinian fighters were very well received in the USA, and the best of him were high rated, but Firpo don't wants to fight against Dempsey when they did it: he said he need one or two more years for to have the necessary preparation for a bout with that great rival; after Firpo lost to Dempsey, he lost too all his enthusiasm, and his career wasn't the same as was before

Others Argentinian good fighters of that old times, were the Heavyweights Victorio Campolo, Alberto Lovell (Olympic Champion) and César Brión, all they rated in his moment between the Top Ten of the world. The only who I'm sure the World Champion (Ray Robinson, Carl Bobo Olson, Gene Fullmer) don't wants to fight was Eduardo Lausse; all they eluded him (Fullmer was beaten by Lausse a year preview to win the World Title). Others who could be World Champion, on the '30 José Carattoli (winner, between others, over Isidoro Gastañaga and Tommy Loughran) couldn't still boxing because in his second bout against Loughran he broken his best weapon: his left hand, and in the following bout, against an European Champion, Carattoli, from the second round, had the same trouble and retired after the fight; this two bouts were drews; and, on the '50, the great Middleweight puncher Rafael Merentino was forced to the retirement, at the early age of 25, after two surgeries in his eyes, winning his last five bouts by K.O.

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:Others Argentinian good fighters of that old times, were the Heavyweights Victorio Campolo, Alberto Lovell (Olympic Champion) and César Brión, all they rated in his moment between the Top Ten of the world. The only who I'm sure the World Champion (Ray Robinson, Carl Bobo Olson, Gene Fullmer) don't wants to fight was Eduardo Lausse; all they eluded him (Fullmer was beaten by Lausse a year preview to win the World Title). Others who could be World Champion, on the '30 José Carattoli (winner, between others, over Isidoro Gastañaga and Tommy Loughran) couldn't still boxing because in his second bout against Loughran he broken his best weapon: his left hand, and in the following bout, against an European Champion, Carattoli, from the second round, had the same trouble and retired after the fight; this two bouts were drews; and, on the '50, the great Middleweight puncher Rafael Merentino was forced to the retirement, at the early age of 25, after two surgeries in his eyes, winning his last five bouts by K.O.

And then there was Alex Miteff. Wasn't he Argentine? And the tragic Alejandro Levorante....sad story.

Seamus wrote:Nero

I'd put Coggi and Laciar above everyone on the list except your top 4.

Coggi went 75-5-2 (44 ko's) was never stopped in his career, was a two time world titlist and was 13-3 (8 ko's) in world title bouts.

Laciar won world titles at two weights, was 12-3-1 (8 ko's) in title fights, and was never stopped in 101 bouts.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think I saw one fight where Coggi was knocked out clean. For no apparent reason the ref gave him about a minute to recover. Even the famed and late Argentinian Norberto longo called it an outrage

Nero3000 wrote

And then there was Alex Miteff. Wasn't he Argentine?

Nero, as Seamus ask this question

I'm curious to know. What Argentinian fighters from the past do you feel deserved a shot at a world title but were denied ?


I answer

As I remember, before the '50 all the Argentinian fighters were very well received in the USA, and the best of him were high rated

and

Others Argentinian good fighters of that old times, were the Heavyweights Victorio Campolo, Alberto Lovell (Olympic Champion) and César Brión, all they rated in his moment between the Top Ten of the world. The only who I'm sure the World Champion (Ray Robinson, Carl Bobo Olson, Gene Fullmer) don't wants to fight was Eduardo Lausse; all they eluded him (Fullmer was beaten by Lausse a year preview to win the World Title).

I have a film of Horacio Accavallo. VERY impressive little fighter!

According to Gil Clancey, Alex Miteff(whom he trained) was knocked out by Ali using the same "anchor punch" that he later used to knock down Sonny Liston. I have the film of the KO and it's true! Ali is gliding backwards and drops Miteff with that very punch. Amazing.

But I still don't think the second Liston fight was a legit KO. A legit knockdown, yes. But not KO.

Martin

That's very interesting what you say about Robinson and Fullmer ducking Eduardo Lausse. I had never really examined his record before, but obviously he was a world class fighter. In 1955 he beat Ralph Jones, Kid Gavilan and Gene Fullmer, AND even decked Fullmer.

Can you post a photo of Lausse ?

Seamus,

Thanks you very much for your interest; I will to attempt post a photo of Eduardo Lausse, José Carattoli and Rafael Merentino, only let me time for to learn how I can do it because I never previous work with photos

After a time, I make this little changes, but the Top 10 still beeing the same fighters:

1 Pascual Pérez
2 Nicolino Locche
3 Carlos Monzón
4 Luis Firpo
5 Justo Suárez
6 José Carattoli
7 Jorge Fernández
8 Horacio Accavallo
9 Julio Mocoroa
10 Eduardo Lausse

Galindez was a better fighter than Accavallo or Lausse IMO.

Interesting that he doesn't seem to be held in such high regard by Argentinians.

Thanks for your opinion! It's important. Galindez is very admired in Argentina. But, Accavallo, only 2 lost in more than 80 fights, and Lausse, oh, Lausse is very superior than Victor (more than 70% of win by K.O.; beating Mario Diaz, Jimmy Beau, Kid Gavilan, Gene Fullmer...) Their records are excellent. In my opinion (only between the 8 classic divisions) after Jose Carattoli, the numer 1, Galindez is the #2 in the Argentinian All Time Greats LH

Thanks!

Seamus wrote:Martin

That's very interesting what you say about Robinson and Fullmer ducking Eduardo Lausse. I had never really examined his record before, but obviously he was a world class fighter. In 1955 he beat Ralph Jones, Kid Gavilan and Gene Fullmer, AND even decked Fullmer.

Can you post a photo of Lausse ?

Seamus,

Here is a photo of two greatest Argentinian Middleweights, Rafael Merentino (left) and Eduardo Lausse (right), both supermasters of the K.O.; between the Middles of All Time in Argentina, the #1 is Carlos Monzon, and 2# and 3#, this boys; his records

Rafael Merentino http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

Eduardo Lausse http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer