BoxRec

Considering this is the 25th anniversary of the death of Joe Louis, I thought this would be a good topic.

Naturally, all these theoretical fights between fighters of different eras are only speculative.

The big problem in speculating about Louis vs Ali, is that Louis was a much smaller man. But, let's suppose they were born on the same day, the day of Ali's birth. Humans are getting bigger with each generation. Just look at the average 18 year old man standing next to his father.

So, Louis would have been a bigger man. Maybe not as big as Ali, but much closer in size.

Ali in his early years was an amazingly gifted athlete. His speed and grace and size for a heavyweight were incredible and I don't think anyone has come along since, even with humans getting bigger and stronger, who could match him.

But, Ali did not have knockout power, he achieved knockouts by accumulated damage.

Louis had devastating knockout power.

Personally, I enjoy watching a fighter who can destroy the other fighter with a single punch or combination.

So, if they were born on the same day and Louis was more comparable in size, I would have been rooting for Louis. And, I think he would have had a damn good chance of beating Ali.

Who would you have been rooting for and would have a bigger Louis beaten Ali?

I wouldn't mind, I'd just like to see the fight with both fighters in their prime...

But I'd probably rout for Louis

I would be rooting for Ali all the way. Louis in his prime would have look very slowing moving compared to a prime Ali. Any heavier, he would have probably have been even slower and easier to hit.

Ali all the way, in my opinion he could have beaten any fighter from any era.

I fancy Ali slightly against Louis, because Louis had big problems with slick movers, ie Conn and Walcott.
On the other hand, Ali was knocked down by lesser punchers than Joe Louis, and you have to figure that Joe would catch him at some point.
I'd give Ali the edge, 55 to 45.
Kind of on a sidenote, the Ali of later years versus Louis would have been a very, very exciting fight, with Ali less mobile and Louis with plenty of opportunity to land combo's up close. I'd give Louis a much greater chance.
I don't think i would be rooting for either. Both are great.

Ali has far too much speed, accuracy and stamina for any heavyweight off any time, Ali IMO, is not only the best, he is the best by a LONG shot

i love the Brown Bomber and in my opinion is one of the greatest the sport has seen but then again so is Ali, so i would be rooting for Ali in the fight i think he would be too fast, too accurate and slick for Louis i predict a UD win or a late TKO.. But this is both fighter in there prime...

Id root for Louis, who would win by KO

Id root for Ali, he'd win on points

alot of people forget that the greatest boxer of all time... never even had a prime! He was taken from boxing in his best years and his phenomenal progress was disrupted because of it. Of course i am talking about ali, so i think ali would beat louis, and if the world had seen his prime, i don't think we would even be asking this question.

thunderfromdownunder wrote:Ali has far too much speed, accuracy and stamina for any heavyweight off any time, Ali IMO, is not only the best, he is the best by a LONG shot

Disagree - the 1938 Louis was as good as the 1965 Ali. I agree though that stylewise this matchup might favor Ali slightly.

Who would I root for? Ali was the more interesting personality, hence first I may fancy Ali. But in the built-up Ali would probably call Louis "Uncle Tom" - as he did with most opponents (and as he did in fact with Louis)- and from this moment on I would root for Louis. Even though he was not that enticing as a person, Louis is the black heavyweight who broke once and for all through the color line. Ali should thank Louis for that until his last breath.

Btw, this Louis-Ali quote is probably well known, but it's too nice not to put it in:

Early in Muhammad Ali's splendacious reign as heavyweight champion, he hired Joe as an "adviser" and they appeared on television together.

"Joe, you really think you coulda whupped me?" Ali said.

"When I had the title," Joe said, "I went on what they called a bum-of-the-month tour."

Ali's voice rose three octaves. "You mean I'm a bum?"

"You woulda been on the tour," Joe told his new employer.

Even though he was not that enticing as a person, Louis is the black heavyweight who broke once and for all through the color line. Ali should thank Louis for that until his last breath.

Louis didnt break the color line, he rode it. You think people thought any better of black people because of Joe Louis? He played the role they wanted him to play. So long as he behaved and comported himself in an exceptable manner he was excepted. If Jack Johnson would have towed the line he would have been treated the same way. The second Louis had served his usefulness he was treated by most as just another black person. The goverment even betrayed his generosity by forcing him to pay back taxes on money he donated to the war effort.
I'm not blameing Louis at all for doing what he had to do to suceed but lets not make him out to be some black revolutionary who made a difference.

theone wrote:

Even though he was not that enticing as a person, Louis is the black heavyweight who broke once and for all through the color line. Ali should thank Louis for that until his last breath.

Louis didnt break the color line, he rode it. You think people thought any better of black people because of Joe Louis? He played the role they wanted him to play. So long as he behaved and comported himself in an exceptable manner he was excepted. If Jack Johnson would have towed the line he would have been treated the same way. The second Louis had served his usefulness he was treated by most as just another black person. The goverment even betrayed his generosity by forcing him to pay back taxes on money he donated to the war effort.
I'm not blameing Louis at all for doing what he had to do to suceed but lets not make him out to be some black revolutionary who made a difference.

Wills "behaved" as well and never got a shot. Neither did Langford.

What I mean with "breaking the color line" is that from Louis there was no question no more that a black fighter who had earned a shot in the ring should get it.

Wills "behaved" as well and never got a shot. Neither did Langord.
What I mean with "breaking the color line" is that from Louis there was no question no more that a black fighter who had earned a shot in the ring should get it.

Things were bad before Johnson due to the color line fighters like Sullivan drew. However as time went by fighters like Dixon,Walcott,Dixie kid and well, Johnson recieved deserved title shots. Willis and Langford fought too soon after Johnson pissed off white America, and that made things tougher for them. The fact that Langford was so scary good didnt help him any either.
As the memory of Johnsons antics faded a bit Louis was given his shot because he was undoubtly a fantastic fighter and the public interest in him was there. As long as he behaved a certain way the fact that he was black was tolerated. If you want to give him credit for that ok, I can repect that.
But in my opinion black atheletes in all sports including boxing owe more to Jackie Robinson than any other athelete. It is a myth that Jackie conducted himself with quite dignity his whole career. He may have put up with alot of shit early on but as soon as he established himself this changed. Jackie became a proud, outspoken star who demanded respect.
He spoke out on racial issues and was a true leader to the black community. Although Robinson never agreed with his methods, Ali owes alot more to Robinson than he does to Louis.

TigerMoth wrote:Considering this is the 25th anniversary of the death of Joe Louis, I thought this would be a good topic.

Naturally, all these theoretical fights between fighters of different eras are only speculative.

The big problem in speculating about Louis vs Ali, is that Louis was a much smaller man. But, let's suppose they were born on the same day, the day of Ali's birth. Humans are getting bigger with each generation. Just look at the average 18 year old man standing next to his father.

So, Louis would have been a bigger man. Maybe not as big as Ali, but much closer in size.

Ali in his early years was an amazingly gifted athlete. His speed and grace and size for a heavyweight were incredible and I don't think anyone has come along since, even with humans getting bigger and stronger, who could match him.

But, Ali did not have knockout power, he achieved knockouts by accumulated damage.

Louis had devastating knockout power.

Personally, I enjoy watching a fighter who can destroy the other fighter with a single punch or combination.

So, if they were born on the same day and Louis was more comparable in size, I would have been rooting for Louis. And, I think he would have had a damn good chance of beating Ali.

Who would you have been rooting for and would have a bigger Louis beaten Ali?

Ali, but only cuz I wanna prove those old-timers wrong in their old vs. new arguements. If I had no stake in it along those lines I would be pulling for Joe. Ali was a loudmouth and I hate loudmouths.

theone wrote:

Even though he was not that enticing as a person, Louis is the black heavyweight who broke once and for all through the color line. Ali should thank Louis for that until his last breath.

Louis didnt break the color line, he rode it. You think people thought any better of black people because of Joe Louis? He played the role they wanted him to play. So long as he behaved and comported himself in an exceptable manner he was excepted. If Jack Johnson would have towed the line he would have been treated the same way. The second Louis had served his usefulness he was treated by most as just another black person. The goverment even betrayed his generosity by forcing him to pay back taxes on money he donated to the war effort.
I'm not blameing Louis at all for doing what he had to do to suceed but lets not make him out to be some black revolutionary who made a difference.

In fact he made a huge difference. Probably more than Johnson. Most of white America looked on blacks as ignorant, trash-talking, "shuckin' and jivin'" field hands. People like Joe Louis and Duke Ellington showed both blacks and whites that a black man could carry himself with as much dignity and class as any white man.

People like Joe Louis and Duke Ellington showed both blacks and whites that a black man could carry himself with as much dignity and class as any white man.

Louis acted the way white people wanted blacks to act. Period. Im not blaming him but its a fact. You really think people came away respecting Louis as their equal? You think they would not have minded if he dated a white woman or spoke up against racism? When black atheletes like Ali came on to the scene I bet the prevelant thought among racist white america was 'Why cant he be more like Louis? He was one of the good ones!"

mattym wrote:alot of people forget that the greatest boxer of all time... never even had a prime! He was taken from boxing in his best years and his phenomenal progress was disrupted because of it. Of course i am talking about ali, so i think ali would beat louis, and if the world had seen his prime, i don't think we would even be asking this question.

A lot of people forget that Louis lost 3 years to military service.

pete wrote:

mattym wrote:alot of people forget that the greatest boxer of all time... never even had a prime! He was taken from boxing in his best years and his phenomenal progress was disrupted because of it. Of course i am talking about ali, so i think ali would beat louis, and if the world had seen his prime, i don't think we would even be asking this question.

A lot of people forget that Louis lost 3 years to military service.

Good point.
P

theone wrote:

People like Joe Louis and Duke Ellington showed both blacks and whites that a black man could carry himself with as much dignity and class as any white man.

Louis acted the way white people wanted blacks to act. Period. Im not blaming him but its a fact. You really think people came away respecting Louis as their equal? You think they would not have minded if he dated a white woman or spoke up against racism? When black atheletes like Ali came on to the scene I bet the prevelant thought among racist white america was 'Why cant he be more like Louis? He was one of the good ones!"

Sure, Louis made concessions to white sensibilities. But let's be honest here. Joe was a naturally quiet and humble man. He wasn't as naturally flamboyant as Ali and Johnson(or as narcissistic).

Your perspective is valid, but Louis did more for the image of blacks than Johnson ever did. "A credit to his race...the HUMAN race".

Joe Louis was the first fighter white kids imitated while at play in the streets. Like "I'm Joe Louis!".

BTW....Louis acted like many blacks wanted blacks to act as well. Not like a clowning, trash-talking profligate, but as a gentleman and a man who's actions spoke louder than words.

Your perspective is valid, but Louis did more for the image of blacks than Johnson ever did. "A credit to his race...the HUMAN race".

I never claimed Johnson did more for the image of black people than Johnson. I think you mis read some of what I wrote.

BTW....Louis acted like many blacks wanted blacks to act as well. Not like a clowning, trash-talking profligate, but as a gentleman and a man who's actions spoke louder than words.

I believe most black people and others of color wanted to be able be themselves whether refined like Louis, boisterous, happy go lucky or surly if they wanted.

theone wrote:

Your perspective is valid, but Louis did more for the image of blacks than Johnson ever did. "A credit to his race...the HUMAN race".

I never claimed Johnson did more for the image of black people than Johnson. I think you mis read some of what I wrote.

BTW....Louis acted like many blacks wanted blacks to act as well. Not like a clowning, trash-talking profligate, but as a gentleman and a man who's actions spoke louder than words.

I believe most black people and others of color wanted to be able be themselves whether refined like Louis, boisterous, happy go lucky or surly if they wanted.

Possibly. Though I think most blacks at the time were very image-conscious and tired of the newspapers and such portraying them as illiterate, marble-mouthed entertainers. Think about it: there was a tremendous backlash in the 1960s by blacks against guys like Louis Armstrong, who to them embodied the blacks-as-entertainers school of thought and thus made angry black dudes like Miles Davis into their heroes and spokespersons.

Think about it: there was a tremendous backlash in the 1960s by blacks against guys like Louis Armstrong, who to them embodied the blacks-as-entertainers school of thought and thus made angry black dudes like Miles Davis into their heroes and spokespersons.

But thats my point. It was the passage of time, the rise of liberal America and strong independant black spokesmen like Jackie Robinson that paved the way for Ali more than anything Louis ever did.

Louis...though Ali was faster, it was said The Brown Bomber needed only 6" to drop an opponent, he was harder puncher, and if Ali was too cocky and confident, like he was with Henry Cooper, Ali would have stayed down.