BoxRec

I've been meaning to post this for awhile. We haven't had many juicy debates lately so I thought I would start one. This is based entirely on what the fighters did as welterweights. (For example, Wilfred Benitez's win over Roberto Duran was at Jr Middleweight, so it wasn't factored in).
It got a little tricky with a few guys that didn't fight in this weight class for long. There are many close calls; often there is little difference between one guy that is rated 5 or more spots aheads of another guy.
There are also about 5 guys who could have easily made this list.
Nevertheless, I thought I would do the list anyway.

Top 50 Welterweights of All-Time
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Barney Ross
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Jose Napoles
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Jimmy McClarnin
10. Jack Britton
11. Ted Kid Lewis
12. Roberto Duran
13. Wilfred Benitez
14. Joe Walcott
15. Carmen Basilio
16. Luis Rodriguez
17. Oscar De La Hoya
18. Felix Trinidad
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Charley Burley
21. Tommy Ryan
22. Billy Graham
23. Young Corbett III
24. Fritzie Zivic
25. Mickey Walker
26. Jackie Fields
27. Donald Curry
28. Ike Quartey
29. Marlon Starling
30. Marty Servo
31. Cocoa Kid
32. Curtis Cokes
33. Buddy McGirt
34. Cory Spinks
35. Ricardo Mayorga
36. Vernon Forrest
37. Shane Moseley
38. Mark Breland
39. Lloyd Honeyghan
40. Tony DeMarco
41. Carlos Palomino
42. Johnny Saxton
43. Mike Sullivan
44. Jimmy Gardner
45. Mike Glover
46. Hoiney Mellody
47. Rube Ferns
48. Lou Brouillard
49. Simon Brown
50. Pipino Cuevas

I keep think that I'm overlooking someone that is obvious.
Let me know what you think. If someone isn't on the list that you think deserves to be, say who he is and who should be taken out, because there can only be 50.

Great list. I like that you have Billy Graham and Fritzie Zivic in there . Two of my favorites. Id try to get Gypsy Joe Harris in there and maybe Johnny Bratton. Maybe have them in there instead of Corey Spinks and Mayorga. But good work man. You put some time into this.

Guys that might be missing (it's a long list I might have missed them):

Packy McFarland
Tommy Bell
Young Jack Thompson
Izzy Jannazzo
Benny Paret
John H Stracey?

It's hard to judge the old timers but their records look good.

What stands out for me is Breland!!! I think he's way too high. I'm not sure he'd make my top 50 and I'd certainly have him below Cuevas, Palomino and Brown. Moseley also looks too high to me.

Personally I rate Napoles higher. If this is on achievement (as you say) at welter then I'd be looking to place him at 1, 2, 3 or 4. I also think Rodriguez is too low.

I definitley feel that Harry Lewis belongs on this list. He is way underrated today. Nat Fleischer rated him at the no. 6 best welter.
Hank Kaplan has him at no. 4 on his all-time jewish fighters P4P list.
He is surley top 50 material in my opinion.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=11032


-KOKid-

Pipino should be much higher I think... awesome power and a granite chin in his prime... he's underrated now because of his loss to Hearns...

Very good list. My only disagreement off hand would be that Hearns, McLarnin and Trinidad should each be a bit higher. I just can't see 10-2 Oscar De La Hoya above 36-0 Felix Trinidad.

Ambling Alp wrote:I've been meaning to post this for awhile. We haven't had many juicy debates lately so I thought I would start one. This is based entirely on what the fighters did as welterweights. (For example, Wilfred Benitez's win over Roberto Duran was at Jr Middleweight, so it wasn't factored in).
It got a little tricky with a few guys that didn't fight in this weight class for long. There are many close calls; often there is little difference between one guy that is rated 5 or more spots aheads of another guy.
There are also about 5 guys who could have easily made this list.
Nevertheless, I thought I would do the list anyway.

Top 50 Welterweights of All-Time
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Barney Ross
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Jose Napoles
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Jimmy McClarnin
10. Jack Britton
11. Ted Kid Lewis
12. Roberto Duran
13. Wilfred Benitez
14. Joe Walcott
15. Carmen Basilio
16. Luis Rodriguez
17. Oscar De La Hoya
18. Felix Trinidad
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Charley Burley
21. Tommy Ryan
22. Billy Graham
23. Young Corbett III
24. Fritzie Zivic
25. Mickey Walker
26. Jackie Fields
27. Donald Curry
28. Ike Quartey
29. Marlon Starling
30. Marty Servo
31. Cocoa Kid
32. Curtis Cokes
33. Buddy McGirt
34. Cory Spinks
35. Ricardo Mayorga
36. Vernon Forrest
37. Shane Moseley
38. Mark Breland
39. Lloyd Honeyghan
40. Tony DeMarco
41. Carlos Palomino
42. Johnny Saxton
43. Mike Sullivan
44. Jimmy Gardner
45. Mike Glover
46. Hoiney Mellody
47. Rube Ferns
48. Lou Brouillard
49. Simon Brown
50. Pipino Cuevas

I keep think that I'm overlooking someone that is obvious.
Let me know what you think. If someone isn't on the list that you think deserves to be, say who he is and who should be taken out, because there can only be 50.

Joe Walcott should be much higher. He was a welter champ who regularly beat much larger men. Nobody but the best would go near him.

I'm a big Hearns fan, but he is way too high. He was a frail welterweight who didn't accomplish as much at this weight as he did when he rose up(in fact his accomplishment at welter pale when compared to many others below him). He was much stronger and a bit more durable at JM and Middle.

Fritzie Zivic and Mickey Walker beneath Oscar DLH????? WOW! That's alarming....or are you just trying to stir up s**t?

Ambling Alp wrote:I've been meaning to post this for awhile. We haven't had many juicy debates lately so I thought I would start one. This is based entirely on what the fighters did as welterweights. (For example, Wilfred Benitez's win over Roberto Duran was at Jr Middleweight, so it wasn't factored in).
It got a little tricky with a few guys that didn't fight in this weight class for long. There are many close calls; often there is little difference between one guy that is rated 5 or more spots aheads of another guy.
There are also about 5 guys who could have easily made this list.
Nevertheless, I thought I would do the list anyway.

Top 50 Welterweights of All-Time
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Barney Ross
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Jose Napoles
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Jimmy McClarnin
10. Jack Britton
11. Ted Kid Lewis
12. Roberto Duran
13. Wilfred Benitez
14. Joe Walcott
15. Carmen Basilio
16. Luis Rodriguez
17. Oscar De La Hoya
18. Felix Trinidad
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Charley Burley
21. Tommy Ryan
22. Billy Graham
23. Young Corbett III
24. Fritzie Zivic
25. Mickey Walker
26. Jackie Fields
27. Donald Curry
28. Ike Quartey
29. Marlon Starling
30. Marty Servo
31. Cocoa Kid
32. Curtis Cokes
33. Buddy McGirt
34. Cory Spinks
35. Ricardo Mayorga
36. Vernon Forrest
37. Shane Moseley
38. Mark Breland
39. Lloyd Honeyghan
40. Tony DeMarco
41. Carlos Palomino
42. Johnny Saxton
43. Mike Sullivan
44. Jimmy Gardner
45. Mike Glover
46. Hoiney Mellody
47. Rube Ferns
48. Lou Brouillard
49. Simon Brown
50. Pipino Cuevas

I keep think that I'm overlooking someone that is obvious.
Let me know what you think. If someone isn't on the list that you think deserves to be, say who he is and who should be taken out, because there can only be 50.

Ace Hudkins was a top 10 fighter from lightweight up to heavyweight and could be put on the list of top welters.

Sure you wanna put Mark Breland, who was a titleist, not a champion, over Carlos Palomino?

I'm a big Hearns fan, but he is way too high. He was a frail welterweight who didn't accomplish as much at this weight as he did when he rose up(in fact his accomplishment at welter pale when compared to many others below him). He was much stronger and a bit more durable at JM and Middle.

disagree



tommy hearns was a lot better and much more effective at 147 than other weights where he wasnt durable enough and lost his physical advantages he had at 147

-KOKid- wrote:Hank Kaplan has him at no. 4 on his all-time jewish fighters P4P list.

Do you have a link to that list?

Tommy Hearns was ahead of a peak Sugar Ray Leonard on all cards going into the 14th round of there title fight, and prior to that he made Pipino Cuevas (12-0 (11ko's) in world title bouts) look like a tomato can. Don't think he was ever behind on a scorecard at WW.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

I'm a big Hearns fan, but he is way too high. He was a frail welterweight who didn't accomplish as much at this weight as he did when he rose up(in fact his accomplishment at welter pale when compared to many others below him). He was much stronger and a bit more durable at JM and Middle.

disagree



tommy hearns was a lot better and much more effective at 147 than other weights where he wasnt durable enough and lost his physical advantages he had at 147

Disagree. Hearns was every bit as fast, powerful and much more durable as he rose in weight. Ex. A- SRL hurt him badly with almost every hard shot he nailed him with at 147, whereas it took Hagler- a superior puncher to SRL- 3 rounds of nailing Tommy with his hardest blows(thrown aggressively, with all Marvin's weight behind them) to finally bring him down.

Don't think he was ever behind on a scorecard at WW.[/quote]



That's due to quality of opposition, which is absolutely anemic compared to many he's rated over.

Seamus wrote:Tommy Hearns was ahead of a peak Sugar Ray Leonard on all cards going into the 14th round of there title fight, and prior to that he made Pipino Cuevas (12-0 (11ko's) in world title bouts) look like a tomato can. Don't think he was ever behind on a scorecard at WW.

What do you think Tommy would have done to Leonard at Jr. Middle or middle? I thin he would have been the Saddler to Leonard's Pep.

Have to disagree with a Saddler-Pep analogy. In both bouts Hearns outboxed Leonard and Leonard outslugged Hearns. Tommy scored some very impressive ko's above but WW, but also had his share of bouts where he was unable to utilize his power, i,e Singletary, Sutherland, Minchillo.

Decagon wrote:Here's an old list that I've revised a little:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Mickey Walker
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Jose Napoles
6. Tommy Hearns
7. Emile Griffith
8. Kid Gavilan
9. Charley Burley
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Luis Rodriguez
12. Roberto Duran
13. Barney Ross
14. Carmen Basilio
15. Jack Britton
16. Oscar de la Hoya
17. Tommy Ryan
18. Joe Walcott
19. “Nonpareil” Jack Dempsey
20. Jimmy McClarnin
21. Ted Lewis
22. Sam Langford
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Aaron Pryor
25. Wilfred Benitez
26. Floyd Mayweather
27. The Cocoa Kid
28. Billy Smith
29. Benny Paret
30. Fritzie Zivic

You have Jose Napoles WAYYYY too high . . .

J-C wrote:

-KOKid- wrote:Hank Kaplan has him at no. 4 on his all-time jewish fighters P4P list.

Do you have a link to that list?

Not in front of me at the moment. It is included in the book "When Boxing Was A Jewish Sport" by Allen Bodner.
I'll be sure to post that list here when I get home from work today, OK?

-KOKid-

I love Hearns and he was a formidable WW but his achievements aren't that great at WW (and that's what is being discussed here). His talent is a different thing.

-KOKid- wrote:

J-C wrote:

-KOKid- wrote:Hank Kaplan has him at no. 4 on his all-time jewish fighters P4P list.

Do you have a link to that list?

Not in front of me at the moment. It is included in the book "When Boxing Was A Jewish Sport" by Allen Bodner.
I'll be sure to post that list here when I get home from work today, OK?

-KOKid-

Thanks bud

The Top 10 Greatest Jewish Fighters of All Time
List compiled by boxing historians Hank Kaplan, Mike Silver and Vic Zimet.
From the book "When Boxing Was A Jewish Sport" by Allen Bodner.

1. Benny Leonard
2. Abe Attell
3. Ted "Kid" Lewis
4. Harry Lewis
5. Barney Ross
6. Lew Tendler
7. Charlie White
8. Jack "Kid" Berg
9. Joe Choynski
10. Louis "Kid" Kaplan

-KOKid-

why did hearns go the distance a lot more once he left WW? cause he was most effective at 147lb. why did hearns get rocked more often or knocked out(barkley) once he left WW? cause his chin was more vunerable in the higher weights.


come on, be realistic nero. there are only a few 147lb in history who would be able to beat a welterweight tommy hearns.

-KOKid- wrote:The Top 10 Greatest Jewish Fighters of All Time
List compiled by boxing historians Hank Kaplan, Mike Silver and Vic Zimet.
From the book "When Boxing Was A Jewish Sport" by Allen Bodner.

1. Benny Leonard
2. Abe Attell
3. Ted "Kid" Lewis
4. Harry Lewis
5. Barney Ross
6. Lew Tendler
7. Charlie White
8. Jack "Kid" Berg
9. Joe Choynski
10. Louis "Kid" Kaplan

-KOKid-

Thanks again mate, it's a list I've often tried putting together myself but it's difficult as the best era of Jewish fighters was probably pre 40s and it's hard to find the film. As a brit it's nice to see Ted "Kid" Lewis although Barney Ross would have a good arguement for 3rd spot.

Basilio at 15? Does that seem right to this group?

Decagon wrote:I had him at #9 right before I posted that, and I fiddled around with it a little bit. He ended up at #14, at least for now. What did Basilio really do? He beat Tony DeMarco and Johnny Saxon, and went 1-1 with a 38-year-old Sugar Ray Robinson. Gil Turner was on the slide by the time Basilio got to him, and Billy Graham went 1-1-1 with him. That's just not enough for a top-10 ranking in my book, anymore. He was a tough guy, but I don't see the skills in him that Hearns and Napoles had. Do I favor slick fighters? Sure. Nothing new there.

Robinson at 38 even was still one hell of a fighter... and Demarco and Saxton were both good fighters in there own right... I don't see Hearns holding off Basilo for 15 rounds at 147...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:why did hearns go the distance a lot more once he left WW? cause he was most effective at 147lb. why did hearns get rocked more often or knocked out(barkley) once he left WW? cause his chin was more vunerable in the higher weights.


come on, be realistic nero. there are only a few 147lb in history who would be able to beat a welterweight tommy hearns.

No, because his quality of opposition IMPROVED markedly as he rose in weight. As far as chin, refer to my Hearns vs. Leonard and Hagler comment. The punches that Juan Roldan cracked him with would have broken him in half at 147. He looked like a skeleton in trunks. Too frail. I only wish Cuevas had whacked him a few times. You would see what I mean.

I'm not talking who-beats-who. I'm talking achievements here. Hearns' were decent, but nowhere near what some of the others rated below him did.