BoxRec

I absolutely believe James has this spot on...... I wish I could cut and paste the piece but the article is protected. So just click on the hyper-link.

http://www.saddoboxing.com/3226-boxing- ... fixed.html

I dont think either fight was fixed , meaning I dont think anyone put the arm on Sonny. However I do think that Sonny quit like a dog in both of them. The punch that Ali landed in the second fight produced a flash knockdown, but the floppin around that Liston was doing on the canvas should have produced an oscar nomination.

Looking back with Hindsite now, would you want to be in the ring with that guy? Especially if you had underated him? Liston may well have been "psyched" but even if he would have given it his best, the outcome would have been the same. He really did not have the skills to compete with the young Louisville Lip.

People understanding what a temple shot can do to you does help bring greater understanding. Liston felt that shot and just figured if it's going to start out this bad, where am I going from here? And his heart just gave out. They were both dog endings but the first was sort of like Byrd Klitschko except Byrd hadnt been winning the fight, Ali was purely in control and at least made it less "dog" like for Liston.

Decagon....The truth is out there.

What makes me think that there is something smelly is the way Ali stood over him, telling him to get up. This makes me think that Ali thought Liston was faking it.

In film footage after the event Ali seems quite subdued...

The problem for me is that nobody has come out and admitted to anything and these things usually come out eventually.

The Walcott-Fleischer pantomime also helps to cloud any judgement as to what went on...

The Lewiston fight is a sham, no two ways about it.

Whether it was the mob, the Black Muslims, or Walcott's, that KO was not legit. Don't give me any crap about a temple shot.

Liston had proved to have an iron chin. Ali, IN HIS WHOLE CAREER, has ZERO 1st round knockouts. You're gonna tell me his one legit 1st round KO was over Sonny Liston? Give me a break. Ali was great and one of the top 3 (he's my #2) HWs who ever lived but there are some who worship at the throne of the man who can't see clearly.

As far as the first fight, two things: 1)Liston took some good shots but didn't really receive that much punishment . . it was a close competetive fight at the time of the stoppage . . .2) in the 6th and final round, Liston basically does nothing and Ali throws a bunch of jabs which Liston easily slips. I completely believe that Liston threw out his shoulder in the 5th round trying to get at Ali, and he retired a la Vitali Klitschko. Not because he "had no heart" or was "getting beat up" b/c that's just not the fact. He had under-trained, under-estimated his opponent, and could not use both arms, and decided to call it a day.

asdf

DaveV17 wrote:Liston had fought less than 3 complete rounds in three years before the first Ali fight. From what I have read, Sonny might have been a heroin addict, and he was a heavy drinker. In addition, he didn't train properly for the fight.

I had this brought to my attention by a poster on here some time ago and it makes sense. Liston had not fought in a long time. He was short of rounds. People had not had chance to gauge if he'd slipped at all. He was there for the taking but nobody realised it.

Taking into consideration the drink etc too (as you rightly point out) Liston was falling away fast from the fighter he had been.

I did hear though that he had dragged himself into great shape for the rematch but after the postponement couldn't find the motivation to knuckle down again.

Especially if you had underated him? Liston may well have been "psyched" but even if he would have given it his best, the outcome would have been the same. He really did not have the skills to compete with the young Louisville Lip.

maybe maybe not. a 1958 sonny liston was a whole different fighter than th 1964 liston.


liston was not knocked down by ali, he took a dive, i seen liston take flush shots on film vs huge punchers without blinking, no way alis light jab floored him

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Especially if you had underated him? Liston may well have been "psyched" but even if he would have given it his best, the outcome would have been the same. He really did not have the skills to compete with the young Louisville Lip.

maybe maybe not. a 1958 sonny liston was a whole different fighter than th 1964 liston.


liston was not knocked down by ali, he took a dive, i seen liston take flush shots on film vs huge punchers without blinking, no way alis light jab floored him

You're right, it was a right cross.

First, I just wanted to address something. Liston's management did not buy Ali's contract. I have no idea where this is coming from but it's not true.

As for the first fight, it was completely on the level. Liston was trying to to win. He just couldn't do it because he simply wasn't as good. It's obvious that he is trying to hit Clay.

As for the 2nd fight, there is some doubt. What really bothers me is that Liston doesn't complain after Walcott stops the fight. If Liston was really trying to win, you would think that he would be upset about Walcott's incompetent officiating. He didn't seem to be upset at the time of the stoppage or ever for that matter.

BoxBuzz wrote:
People understanding what a temple shot can do to you does help bring greater understanding.

George Chuvalo said nothing about a "temple shot."

Chuvalo fought Ali twice for total of 27 rounds.

Chuvalo sat in the 4th row for this "fight."

Chuvalo said , "It was a phoney."

But what does Chuvalo know.

expug wrote:I do think that Sonny quit like a dog.

Ali wanted to quit in his corner earlier in the first fight.

Do you think he wanted to quit like a dog?

Do you think Ali quit like a dog in his fight with Holmes?

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
People understanding what a temple shot can do to you does help bring greater understanding.

George Chuvalo said nothing about a "temple shot."

Chuvalo fought Ali twice for total of 27 rounds.

Chuvalo sat in the 4th row for this "fight."

Chuvalo said , "It was a phoney."

But what does Chuvalo know.

This is quite a remarkable and entertaining statement for so many reasons.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
People understanding what a temple shot can do to you does help bring greater understanding.

George Chuvalo said nothing about a "temple shot."

Chuvalo fought Ali twice for total of 27 rounds.

Chuvalo sat in the 4th row for this "fight."

Chuvalo said , "It was a phoney."

But what does Chuvalo know.

This is quite a remarkable and entertaining statement for so many reasons.

Nothing remarkable. Chuvalo was talking about his own profession.

Chuvalo spoke from having fought Ali twice.

Chuvalo sat in the 4th row at this "fight."

Chuvalo said, "It was a phoney."

granberry wrote:

expug wrote:I do think that Sonny quit like a dog.

Ali wanted to quit in his corner earlier in the first fight.

Do you think he wanted to quit like a dog?

Do you think Ali quit like a dog in his fight with Holmes?

Wanting to Quit and Quitting are two very differint things there sunshine.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
People understanding what a temple shot can do to you does help bring greater understanding.

George Chuvalo said nothing about a "temple shot."

Chuvalo fought Ali twice for total of 27 rounds.

Chuvalo sat in the 4th row for this "fight."

Chuvalo said , "It was a phoney."

But what does Chuvalo know.

This is quite a remarkable and entertaining statement for so many reasons.

Buzz,

I do not find your repetition of the Ali industry talking points remarkable.

They have been regurgitated so often they are instantly recognizable.

The Ali industry has a problem to handle :

Ali won his title in an obviouusly suspicious fight with Liston.

And the 2nd fight stunk even worse.


How does the Ali industry attempt to handle this problem?

They repeat the mantra that the fights were legitimate.

There was one bit of truth in the article you posted by the salesman for the Ali industry.

Don Dunphy did say, "If that was a punch, I'll eat it."

Poor Ferdie Pacheco and Angelo Dundee, two flaming shills for Ali and former employees of Ali,

had a disastrous program as their guests Don Dunphy, Archie Moore, and Georgie Benton all ridiculed the fake "knockout" of Liston.

Dundee tried to insist it was real but finally gave up in the face of so much derision.

"Aw, forget it," Dundee finally said in frustration.

"I'm trying to forget it," Dunphy answered.

That entire program was a disaster for the two Ali shills, Dundee and Pacheco.

Funniest thing I ever saw.

expug wrote:

granberry wrote:

expug wrote:I do think that Sonny quit like a dog.

Ali wanted to quit in his corner earlier in the first fight.

Do you think he wanted to quit like a dog?

Do you think Ali quit like a dog in his fight with Holmes?

Wanting to Quit and Quitting are two very differint things there sunshine.

Ali would have quit if his corner hadn't pushed him out in the first Liston fight.

I notice you wouldn't anwer the question, "Did Ali quit like a dog in the Holmes fight."

Not a word from you on that, was there, Miss Sunshine?

I dont think Ali quit .
At least thats not how I remember it.
You wouldnt call me miss to my face pal.

Anyone who claims the second fight was on the level doesn't deserve to write an article. If that wasn't a dive, there has never been a dive in the history of boxing. Period.

expug wrote:I dont think Ali quit .
At least thats not how I remember it.
You wouldnt call me miss to my face pal.

I sure would pal.

Sir Psycho wrote:Anyone who claims the second fight was on the level doesn't deserve to write an article. If that wasn't a dive, there has never been a dive in the history of boxing. Period.

Psycho,

You just don't "understand" what a "temple shot" can do.

The "elite" members of the Ali industry do, though.

They are SO superior in their "understanding" of such points.

(especially when it helps their unrelenting sales pitch for their product).

granberry wrote:

Sir Psycho wrote:Anyone who claims the second fight was on the level doesn't deserve to write an article. If that wasn't a dive, there has never been a dive in the history of boxing. Period.

Psycho,

You just don't "understand" what a "temple shot" can do.

The "elite" members of the Ali industry do, though.

They are SO superior in their "understanding" of such points.

(especially when it helps their unrelenting sales pitch for their product).

I have taken temple shots, I have seen 1000 temple shots in gyms, tournaments and at prize fights. Liston was not hurt and he was touched at best. Liston absolutely took a dive and for once I agree with you 100 percent. Like I said, if that isn't a dive, you don't believe in dives. That is the primary example of what a dive is. Ali beat an untrained Liston who was probably 10 years older than his listed age, but whatever that is on Liston in the first contest. If boxing were a legitimate sport, that bout would be ruled a no contest.

I like this granberry guy, he tells it as it is!

IMO both fights were undoubtably fixed. Which really disappointing because Liston was a great fighter and it also helped build the Ali Myth. I'm not saying Ali was a bum, he was good very good, but I don't think he is the best heavyweight of all time let alone the greastest boxer of all time and Foreman aside the Liston fights were really his career defining moments IMO.

Sir Psycho wrote:

granberry wrote:

Sir Psycho wrote:Anyone who claims the second fight was on the level doesn't deserve to write an article. If that wasn't a dive, there has never been a dive in the history of boxing. Period.

Psycho,

You just don't "understand" what a "temple shot" can do.

The "elite" members of the Ali industry do, though.

They are SO superior in their "understanding" of such points.

(especially when it helps their unrelenting sales pitch for their product).

I have taken temple shots, I have seen 1000 temple shots in gyms, tournaments and at prize fights. Liston was not hurt and he was touched at best. Liston absolutely took a dive and for once I agree with you 100 percent. Like I said, if that isn't a dive, you don't believe in dives. That is the primary example of what a dive is. Ali beat an untrained Liston who was probably 10 years older than his listed age, but whatever that is on Liston in the first contest. If boxing were a legitimate sport, that bout would be ruled a no contest.

LOL Granberry was taking the piss mate...