BoxRec

havent been able to think of one for a while but now i think i might have a good one. what do ya think?

Tough one for Joe. He's got to get past possibly the hardest jab ever. I think Frazier takes too many shots trying to get inside that jab. Over the course of the fight I imagine Liston would stop Frazier.

This would be kind of like the Foreman fight, but Liston usually took his time more and used the jab more than a young foreman, also Joe was in poor shape in both his fights with Foreman... I lean towards Sonny but on points and probably a very close decision...

Frazier too much heart for a quitter like Liston. Foreman was much more a threat to Frazier than Liston. He was far superior

Liston wasn't a quitter... look at his whole career, losing to Ali is no disgrace...

I'm somewhere between walshb and silkov on this one. Frazier is enough of a force to press the "quit" in you. Silkov do you think Frazier has any answers for a guy like George or Sonny? The Foreman fights probably tell the story, but Pre Ali Frazier might have been a a different tale.

For heart Frazier is going to test Sonny IF he can move things along past the early rounds. I have always thought Sonny would take this but Pre Ali Frazier was a force of Nature. I think the first Ali fight took a lot out of him.

silkov wrote:This would be kind of like the Foreman fight, but Liston usually took his time more and used the jab more than a young foreman, also Joe was in poor shape in both his fights with Foreman... I lean towards Sonny but on points and probably a very close decision...

So basically it is nothing like the first Foreman fight...

... I will say Liston by fourth round knockout.

DoubleM wrote:

silkov wrote:This would be kind of like the Foreman fight, but Liston usually took his time more and used the jab more than a young foreman, also Joe was in poor shape in both his fights with Foreman... I lean towards Sonny but on points and probably a very close decision...

So basically it is nothing like the first Foreman fight...

... I will say Liston by fourth round knockout.

maybe he was referring to "type of opponent?"

BoxBuzz wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

silkov wrote:This would be kind of like the Foreman fight, but Liston usually took his time more and used the jab more than a young foreman, also Joe was in poor shape in both his fights with Foreman... I lean towards Sonny but on points and probably a very close decision...

So basically it is nothing like the first Foreman fight...

... I will say Liston by fourth round knockout.

maybe he was referring to "type of opponent?"

This would be kind of like the Foreman fight

walshb wrote:Frazier too much heart for a quitter like Liston. Foreman was much more a threat to Frazier than Liston. He was far superior

I put Liston a notch below Foreman as well, but I just think this is a bad matchup for Joe. Would probably be more like the second Frazier-Foreman fight with Joe going a bit deeper, but I still think Sonny would stop him around the 5th. Of course, Sonny never fought anyone like Joe, so it’s also possible that the constant pressure would unnerve him. I think Sonny had a fragile psyche, and it’s possible that Joe’s constant pressure could force Sonny into a shell. So I don’t think that Joe by mid-late stoppage or a lopsided decision is a stretch either, but I think Liston by KO is the more likely outcome.

walshb wrote:Frazier too much heart for a quitter like Liston. Foreman was much more a threat to Frazier than Liston. He was far superior

Oh dear

I think Joe's style and size would have suited Liston. Although I have a high regard for Frazier I see Sonny stopping him in 4-5 rounds. The guys that gave Liston trouble at his peak were fast, clever boxers.... Frazier had a very attacking style that would allow Liston to engage rather than chase. If Joe landed flush then he might hurt Liston but I don't see him having the overall power to stop a peak Sonny. And neither fighter was a quitter, so I'd expect some serious action while it lasted.

J

The Great John L wrote:

walshb wrote:Frazier too much heart for a quitter like Liston. Foreman was much more a threat to Frazier than Liston. He was far superior

I put Liston a notch below Foreman as well, but I just think this is a bad matchup for Joe. Would probably be more like the second Frazier-Foreman fight with Joe going a bit deeper, but I still think Sonny would stop him around the 5th. Of course, Sonny never fought anyone like Joe, so it’s also possible that the constant pressure would unnerve him. I think Sonny had a fragile psyche, and it’s possible that Joe’s constant pressure could force Sonny into a shell. So I don’t think that Joe by mid-late stoppage or a lopsided decision is a stretch either, but I think Liston by KO is the more likely outcome.

A notch above Liston how? In what department?

Nero3000 wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

walshb wrote:Frazier too much heart for a quitter like Liston. Foreman was much more a threat to Frazier than Liston. He was far superior

I put Liston a notch below Foreman as well, but I just think this is a bad matchup for Joe. Would probably be more like the second Frazier-Foreman fight with Joe going a bit deeper, but I still think Sonny would stop him around the 5th. Of course, Sonny never fought anyone like Joe, so it’s also possible that the constant pressure would unnerve him. I think Sonny had a fragile psyche, and it’s possible that Joe’s constant pressure could force Sonny into a shell. So I don’t think that Joe by mid-late stoppage or a lopsided decision is a stretch either, but I think Liston by KO is the more likely outcome.

A notch above Liston how? In what department?

Are you asking me why I rank Foreman ahead of Liston? Well for starters he fought much better opposition than Liston. While Liston did pretty much clean out the HW division prior to blitzing Floyd, the division was quite weak at that time. George beat Frazier, Norton and Lyle in his first career, as well as Moorer, and well… OK his second career was pretty weak – a few fringe contenders in his second career. IMOO George was also stronger, punched harder and was more durable than Liston. There was no quit in George.

I also think that George was a little better on his feet than Liston, and had a little better hand speed as well, although Georeg sometimes telegraphed his shots, therefore negating the speed advantage. And yes be fore you ask, I have seen many of Listons fights, both before winning the title and after winning the title. He was slow of foot and had average hand speed. Don’t take offense at this, they are just my opinions. However, I don’t rank either one of them in my top ten.

My #8 vs. my #9 all-time heavyweight. Great matchup and too close to call.

I am visualizing Liston throwing that hard but extremely slow jab but Frazier catching him with a hook
and stopping him.

The Great John L wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

The Great John L wrote: I put Liston a notch below Foreman as well, but I just think this is a bad matchup for Joe. Would probably be more like the second Frazier-Foreman fight with Joe going a bit deeper, but I still think Sonny would stop him around the 5th. Of course, Sonny never fought anyone like Joe, so it’s also possible that the constant pressure would unnerve him. I think Sonny had a fragile psyche, and it’s possible that Joe’s constant pressure could force Sonny into a shell. So I don’t think that Joe by mid-late stoppage or a lopsided decision is a stretch either, but I think Liston by KO is the more likely outcome.

A notch above Liston how? In what department?

Are you asking me why I rank Foreman ahead of Liston? Well for starters he fought much better opposition than Liston. While Liston did pretty much clean out the HW division prior to blitzing Floyd, the division was quite weak at that time. George beat Frazier, Norton and Lyle in his first career, as well as Moorer, and well… OK his second career was pretty weak – a few fringe contenders in his second career. IMOO George was also stronger, punched harder and was more durable than Liston. There was no quit in George.

I also think that George was a little better on his feet than Liston, and had a little better hand speed as well, although Georeg sometimes telegraphed his shots, therefore negating the speed advantage. And yes be fore you ask, I have seen many of Listons fights, both before winning the title and after winning the title. He was slow of foot and had average hand speed. Don’t take offense at this, they are just my opinions. However, I don’t rank either one of them in my top ten.

Liston at his peak had quicker hands then Foreman, a MUCH tigher defense, and was overall a smarter and more technically sound fighter. The late 1950s HW division was actually very strong; Folley, Williams, and Machen were on par with Norton and Lyle. I see Liston as being a superior version of Foreman, and would also beat Frazier by knockout

We are entitled to our opinions. But it's hard to imagine anyone putting Cleveland Williams in the same class as Lyle. There is quite a disparity in the resumes.

The Great John L wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

The Great John L wrote: I put Liston a notch below Foreman as well, but I just think this is a bad matchup for Joe. Would probably be more like the second Frazier-Foreman fight with Joe going a bit deeper, but I still think Sonny would stop him around the 5th. Of course, Sonny never fought anyone like Joe, so it’s also possible that the constant pressure would unnerve him. I think Sonny had a fragile psyche, and it’s possible that Joe’s constant pressure could force Sonny into a shell. So I don’t think that Joe by mid-late stoppage or a lopsided decision is a stretch either, but I think Liston by KO is the more likely outcome.

A notch above Liston how? In what department?

Are you asking me why I rank Foreman ahead of Liston? Well for starters he fought much better opposition than Liston. While Liston did pretty much clean out the HW division prior to blitzing Floyd, the division was quite weak at that time. George beat Frazier, Norton and Lyle in his first career, as well as Moorer, and well… OK his second career was pretty weak – a few fringe contenders in his second career. IMOO George was also stronger, punched harder and was more durable than Liston. There was no quit in George.

I also think that George was a little better on his feet than Liston, and had a little better hand speed as well, although Georeg sometimes telegraphed his shots, therefore negating the speed advantage. And yes be fore you ask, I have seen many of Listons fights, both before winning the title and after winning the title. He was slow of foot and had average hand speed. Don’t take offense at this, they are just my opinions. However, I don’t rank either one of them in my top ten.

Cleveland Williams hit Sonny with shots that could have knocked down a barn. Sonny took them. Ron Lyle, who carried less power in his mitts, floored and hurt Foreman several times. So that would dispense with the theory that George is more durable than Sonny, wouldn't it?

Better on his feet?? Ali called Foreman "The Mummy"!! and I don't think it's cuz George wrapped himself in bandages. Nuff said!!

Faster?....well, what can I say? All the things you've said are clearly refuted by the films of both men in their primes. It's like trying to convince someone that Marlon Brando was more masculine than Montgomery Clift. How can you do it if they don't(or won't) see it?

BTW...Can you show me a single punch George threw in his career that compares with the speed of the right that KO'd Westphal or the left hook that floored Williams(second fight)?

Liston via KO in 8

Decagon...I can't find that Axel "L" anywhere on Foreman's record.....I keep lookin and lookin......

I would say Fraizier simply because he was a better boxer. Better conditioned, all of the intangables such as more heart, had a whole assortment of punches he could throw from all angles. I think he could get inside to nutrelize Liston's size advantage. Joe would wear him down in a war of attrition and score a knockout.

Nero3000 wrote:Cleveland Williams hit Sonny with shots that could have knocked down a barn. Sonny took them. Ron Lyle, who carried less power in his mitts, floored and hurt Foreman several times. So that would dispense with the theory that George is more durable than Sonny, wouldn't it?

Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle? Williams early record looks kinda like Lamar Clarks, and it hardly got much better later in his career. Williams had far too weak a resume to classify him as a puncher in the league of Lyle. Or Norton for that matter. Keep trying.

Sonny Liston by stoppage in the first five rounds. The styles just don't match up for Joe well at all and I think he'd be dropped a number of times before the referee saved him from further punishment.

Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle?

going by his record doesnt mean shit. fact is, cleveland williams was avoided by most of the top contenders/champions of the late 50s-early 60s. thats why his record is not as great as it seems. some of the best fighters of that era avoided him were guys he would have knocked out and they knew it which was why they were so scared to fight him.

kinda like elmer ray in the mid 1940s who had to feast on knocking out no names since the top contender would not fight him because they knew ray would knock them out.





heres a list of men cleveland williams knocked out i think u underate it a little...........




6'3 205lb John Holman- Holman was a dangerous hard punching fringe contender who was top 10 ranked in the mid 1950s. holman didnt have much skill, but he could bang


6'1 208lb Alex Miteff- Miteff was a fringe top 10 ranked contender in the 1960s.



6'0 195lb Alonzo Johnson- Johnson was never knocked out before he fought cleveland williams despite fighting the likes of muhammad ali, nino valdes, eddie machen, alejandro lavorante, zora folley all men who he lasted the distace with. when johnson fought williams, williams starched johnson out in one round! if u ever watched johnson vs ali which im sure u have, u will find johnson gave ali a tough time. johnson was a good boxer.


6'6 200lb ernie terell- by far cleveland williams best win. terell was one of the best contenders of the 1960s and was WBA champion. terell is defintley a top 50 heavyweight of all time. this is a big win. this was the only time terell was ever stopped in his prime.


6'2 190lb sonny banks- banks was a journeyman, but he was a very hard puncher


i did not include

- young jack johnson since he was virtually shot when cleveland williams beat him



in comparison lets look at ron lyles KO resume.............


past his prime buster mathis
jose luis garcia
jurgen blin
earnie shavers- shavers was easier to knock out then terell was




honestly how is that better than cleveland williams?




i might add lyle was given far more oppertunitys to fight contenders or champions then the highly avoided williams was