BoxRec

who wins this one and why?

I see this as simialr to Holyfields 1st fight with Dwight Qawi, but against a stronger and harder hitter in Frazier, who would win by late stoppage in a war.

Smoking Joe in a late round KO, after a titanic struggle.

Prime Vs Prime.....Joe doesn't have the size advantage needed to wear down Holy in a war - Both guys have a ton of heart....but I think a prime Holy's heart is second to none...and he has the better chin without question (Fraizer would have never taken the shots Holy has from Bowe, Lennox, Tyson, etc....and Holy was even past his prime in those 24 rounds with Lennox).

Pound for Pound Holyfield's hand speed, better combination punching and heart win out.....either by late round stoppage or close UNI DEC -

Like Tyson I think Joe's style is made to order for Holyfield.

Six to one, half dozen the other.

This fights almost too close to call. Gut tells me Frazier by decision, but only after one hell of a war.

This setup makes for a nice sequel.

What a fight this would be. Bothg guys had incredible motors. I think Joe would edge it due to a better body attack. Evander liked to head hunt a little bit and Joes bobbing and weaving might give him a problem. Although I think Joes face might look like 5 miles of bad fence at the end.

Joe Frazier faced one really big puncher in his career, and he got KO'd by him both times. Holyfield is too strong and durable, and the better boxer. Peak Evander by KO in about 8.

I think Frazier stops him in a war. Holyfield would be made to fight on the inside with Frazier and Joe would outwork him. Holyfield was never the hardest fighter to hit, although he had an iron chin and a ton of heart, but I feel Fraziers body work gives him the edge. Holyfield would do well over the first 5-7 rounds, but Frazier would slowly take over and stop him late in the fight, it would be one hell of a fight though.

Les Darcy wrote:I think Frazier stops him in a war. Holyfield would be made to fight on the inside with Frazier and Joe would outwork him. Holyfield was never the hardest fighter to hit, although he had an iron chin and a ton of heart, but I feel Fraziers body work gives him the edge. Holyfield would do well over the first 5-7 rounds, but Frazier would slowly take over and stop him late in the fight, it would be one hell of a fight though.

A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.

meade95 wrote:

Les Darcy wrote:I think Frazier stops him in a war. Holyfield would be made to fight on the inside with Frazier and Joe would outwork him. Holyfield was never the hardest fighter to hit, although he had an iron chin and a ton of heart, but I feel Fraziers body work gives him the edge. Holyfield would do well over the first 5-7 rounds, but Frazier would slowly take over and stop him late in the fight, it would be one hell of a fight though.

A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.

Ever see Holyfield-Cooper? Holyfield-Moorer?

How is Holyfield, a guy who had to lift weights and drink shakes to get above 200, stronger than Frazier? How does he have the power to stop Joe? when Joe took the best of Bonavena, Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Bugner, and Ali?

Frazier was so superior to the Tyson Evander fought there is really no comparison. Holyfield got worn out by the pressure of Qawi . . .how would he deal with a consistently bobbing and weaving Frazier, who loved to work the body (and as Bowe showed and Tyson showed in that round 5 when he finally began to go downstairs, Evander has an iron head but does have a weakness to a body attack-Frazier murdered the body) Evander's tendency to trade punches when he was looking for rests would prove fatal fighting Frazier, who without a doubt had the bigger punch and was just as durable.

Holyfield's love of a war would play into Joe's hands. At the end of a great, great fight, the Smokin' one would emerge victorious.

meade95 wrote:A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.

Frazier was KD by 2 fighters – Foreman and Bonavena. He was TKOd twice by Foreman, he was not counted out in either fight. That was against a prime Foreman. Holyfield was KD by Cooper, Bowe and Toney. How does Holyfield have “without question” a better chin than Joe?

I agree that Holyfield would have been a very difficult fight for Frazier. However, as a HW Holyfield never had the punch output of Frazier and had a tendancy to become inactive in many rounds. I don’t see a problem with anyone saying that Holy could have beaten Frazier, but these “without question” statements are pretty over the top. Especially the statement about a better chin.

At times, Holyfield's defense could be quite good i,e 2nd Bowe fight, 1st Tyson fight, while Frazier's was usually poor. The only reason Frazier's poor defense is pretty much ignored, was because he was usually the bigger puncher and more active than his opponent. Remember the guy's own words "I'm always willing to take a punch to land a punch". Not a wise strategy when the other guy is George Foreman. Holyfield took the best shots of Tyson twice, Lewis twice, Old Foreman, who could still punch, and Bowe in one fight and for the best part of another. Frazier got dropped twice by Bonavena, was saved from a clear knockdown by Quarry in the 1st round, but was saved by the ropes, and got destroyed by Foreman twice. Evander Holyfield, despite always being in shape, hasen't always come into the ring mentally focused, and even Lou Duva has admitted this. The Cooper fight was a good example, he dismissed Cooper as a nobody and ended up in the fight of his life. Frazier on the other hand was always focused, but it didn't do much for his defense.

The Great John L wrote:

meade95 wrote:A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.

Frazier was KD by 2 fighters – Foreman and Bonavena. He was TKOd twice by Foreman, he was not counted out in either fight. That was against a prime Foreman. Holyfield was KD by Cooper, Bowe and Toney. How does Holyfield have “without question” a better chin than Joe?

I agree that Holyfield would have been a very difficult fight for Frazier. However, as a HW Holyfield never had the punch output of Frazier and had a tendancy to become inactive in many rounds. I don’t see a problem with anyone saying that Holy could have beaten Frazier, but these “without question” statements are pretty over the top. Especially the statement about a better chin.

Trying to suggest an over the hill Holyfield that was Kd by James Toney is an accruate representation of a prime Holy's chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Holyfield was tagged by Cooper without a doubt (a huge right hand, by a guy who could do one thing well...punch)...and it was the type of shot that caught Holy clean without him seeing it......and he didn't fall down....he fell into the ropes (and got an 8 count)....and by the end of the round he was bashing Cooper around the ring.

Bowe is the only guy to drop Holyfield in his prime. A big 245 pound man who hit him numerous times and it took a shot to the back of the head to drop Holyfield -

There is no way Joe takes those shots from Bowe, Lennox and Tyson (IMO)....too big of men, who hit too hard.

meade95 wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

meade95 wrote:A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.

Frazier was KD by 2 fighters – Foreman and Bonavena. He was TKOd twice by Foreman, he was not counted out in either fight. That was against a prime Foreman. Holyfield was KD by Cooper, Bowe and Toney. How does Holyfield have “without question” a better chin than Joe?

I agree that Holyfield would have been a very difficult fight for Frazier. However, as a HW Holyfield never had the punch output of Frazier and had a tendancy to become inactive in many rounds. I don’t see a problem with anyone saying that Holy could have beaten Frazier, but these “without question” statements are pretty over the top. Especially the statement about a better chin.

Trying to suggest an over the hill Holyfield that was Kd by James Toney is an accruate representation of a prime Holy's chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Holyfield was tagged by Cooper without a doubt (a huge right hand, by a guy who could do one thing well...punch)...and it was the type of shot that caught Holy clean without him seeing it......and he didn't fall down....he fell into the ropes (and got an 8 count)....and by the end of the round he was bashing Cooper around the ring.

Bowe is the only guy to drop Holyfield in his prime. A big 245 pound man who hit him numerous times and it took a shot to the back of the head to drop Holyfield -

There is no way Joe takes those shots from Bowe, Lennox and Tyson (IMO)....too big of men, who hit too hard.

You think Lewis would take out Frazier! Jesus, Lennox's big feet would be wobbling all over the place - Ray Mercer nearly licked Lewis.

dempseyfire wrote:

meade95 wrote:

Les Darcy wrote:I think Frazier stops him in a war. Holyfield would be made to fight on the inside with Frazier and Joe would outwork him. Holyfield was never the hardest fighter to hit, although he had an iron chin and a ton of heart, but I feel Fraziers body work gives him the edge. Holyfield would do well over the first 5-7 rounds, but Frazier would slowly take over and stop him late in the fight, it would be one hell of a fight though.

A prime Holy never had much problems with a guy Joe's size - I think the tinge of Holyfield's end part of his career is weighing on people's mind here -

A prime Holyfield has faster hands then Joe, he's without question stronger (doesn't hit as hard shot for shot perhaps...but he is whithout question physically stronger...to move Joe)...he has without question the better chin then Joe.....he put combinations together better and Holyfield could also hit (without a doubt he had the power to KO/TKO Joe)....I don't see Joe having the ability to TKO a prime Holyfield.

Holyfield took tremendous amounts of big shots and punishment duriing his prime and wasn't stopped (the third Bowe fight he was suffering from Hepititis B...and that was a TKO due to exhaustion.)

It would have been a war in the Dwight Qawi / Tyson modes.....but I firmly believe a fighter like Joe was made to order for Holyfield in his prime.

Ever see Holyfield-Cooper? Holyfield-Moorer?

How is Holyfield, a guy who had to lift weights and drink shakes to get above 200, stronger than Frazier? How does he have the power to stop Joe? when Joe took the best of Bonavena, Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Bugner, and Ali?

Frazier was so superior to the Tyson Evander fought there is really no comparison. Holyfield got worn out by the pressure of Qawi . . .how would he deal with a consistently bobbing and weaving Frazier, who loved to work the body (and as Bowe showed and Tyson showed in that round 5 when he finally began to go downstairs, Evander has an iron head but does have a weakness to a body attack-Frazier murdered the body) Evander's tendency to trade punches when he was looking for rests would prove fatal fighting Frazier, who without a doubt had the bigger punch and was just as durable.

Holyfield was clearly physically stronger the both Cooper and Moorer (without question)...and Vs Cooper Holyfield won every round but 1 (my God, the notion that that isn't good enough is silly)....Vs Moorer he lost a close majority dec because he was outboxed (and because J. Roth didn't correctly score the 2nd round a 10-8 for Holy's clean kd on Moorer)

Frazier wasn't that type of figher...a lefty who didn't want to slug and who was looking to outbox you over 12 rounds -

You mention Qawi....(um, Holyfield beat him twice!...and KO'd him the second time in 4 rounds)...and beat him the first time in only his 11th pro fight...WELL BEFORE HOLYFIELD's prime......and you are trying to suggest because he beat Qawi (the champion!) in only his 11th pro fight...in a 15 round war......that, that isn't good enough?

Odd logic - Again the two met a year later and a maturing Holy Ko'd him in an easy 4 rounds -

Holyfield was stronger then Frazier physically. You can ask any of the boxing guys in the biz who have worked with Holy and Frazier....They may not say Holy would win this contest....but to a man they would say Holyfield was physically stronger. There isn't any question here. (and I'm not talking punching power...I'm talking physical strength which plays a big role in a rough and tumble, in-close type fight...which these two would certainly have).


The reality is styles make fights (we all know this)...and a fighter who likes to come right at you...is made to order for Holyfield.....always was, always will be.

Holyfields faster hands and combination punching would eat up Frazier in exchanges..

bennie wrote:

meade95 wrote:

The Great John L wrote: Frazier was KD by 2 fighters – Foreman and Bonavena. He was TKOd twice by Foreman, he was not counted out in either fight. That was against a prime Foreman. Holyfield was KD by Cooper, Bowe and Toney. How does Holyfield have “without question” a better chin than Joe?

I agree that Holyfield would have been a very difficult fight for Frazier. However, as a HW Holyfield never had the punch output of Frazier and had a tendancy to become inactive in many rounds. I don’t see a problem with anyone saying that Holy could have beaten Frazier, but these “without question” statements are pretty over the top. Especially the statement about a better chin.

Trying to suggest an over the hill Holyfield that was Kd by James Toney is an accruate representation of a prime Holy's chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Holyfield was tagged by Cooper without a doubt (a huge right hand, by a guy who could do one thing well...punch)...and it was the type of shot that caught Holy clean without him seeing it......and he didn't fall down....he fell into the ropes (and got an 8 count)....and by the end of the round he was bashing Cooper around the ring.

Bowe is the only guy to drop Holyfield in his prime. A big 245 pound man who hit him numerous times and it took a shot to the back of the head to drop Holyfield -

There is no way Joe takes those shots from Bowe, Lennox and Tyson (IMO)....too big of men, who hit too hard.

You think Lewis would take out Frazier! Jesus, Lennox's big feet would be wobbling all over the place - Ray Mercer nearly licked Lewis.

No....Didn't mean to necessarily imply that....I said if Lennox hit Frazier with the shots he hit Holyfield with.....he'd TKO Joe...

My gut says Joe gets to Lennox before Lennox gets to him....Inside of 6 rounds I'd go with Joe....past 6 rounds it would start to favor Lennox.

Neville, or whatever your first name is, you have a blind spot when it comes to Holyfield. "Holyfield was stronger then Frazier physically" is one of the most ridiculous statements I think I have ever heard. Holyfield was a superbly-conditioned ring mechanic who liked to slug it out and nearly always ended up struggling when he did. He got away with it against Dokes and Cooper, because of his conditioning. Against Frazier, he would have found himself in with someone who didn't fade down the stretch - in fact, got stronger.
Holyfield needed to use his skills against Frazier, as he did against Tyson, or Qawi. Either way, Frazier wins.

Just reading these arguments I am persueded that Holyfield would have done very well against Frazier. That was not where I started before I began reading everyones contributions. Who says people can not be persueded by a forum discussion? I may go back and read some again... I still lean to Joe but not quite as one sided as my opinion was before everyones contributions.

For a counter point to the Pro Evander crowd why would Evander do better against Frazier than Ali did against him? That seems to be a somewhat concensus opinion from the Evander supporters. Which is the reason I'm not moved from my thinking that Joe probably gets his hand raised in a fight that no one really wins based on the damage done to both fighters.

bennie wrote: Holyfield needed to use his skills against Frazier, as he did against Tyson, or Qawi. Either way, Frazier wins.

Holyfield was "physically" stronger then Tyson in the ring - That is what allowed him to control the pace and style of that fight - Just like being physcially stronger then Frazier would help him do as well -

And nope, Holy stops Frazier late or wins Dec -

BoxBuzz wrote: For a counter point to the Pro Evander crowd why would Evander do better against Frazier than Ali did against him? That seems to be a somewhat concensus opinion from the Evander supporters.

I think style wise Ali would always have problems with "swarmers" who could punch and had the stamina to keep it up - (a la, Frazier types)

However that type of style is made to order for Holyfield (IMO).

Ali needed room / distance to fight his "best".....Holyfield on the other hand fights extremely well inside...and especially getting to fight off the counter if a guy is willing to wade into him...or stand and fight.

Holyfield would always have problems with big guys who like to box and stay away.....A prime Ali would have been very difficult for Holyfield...simply because Ali would have boxed him from the outside...and Holyfield isn't the "swarmer" type like say a Frazier / Tyson.

meade95 wrote:Trying to suggest an over the hill Holyfield that was Kd by James Toney is an accruate representation of a prime Holy's chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Holyfield was tagged by Cooper without a doubt (a huge right hand, by a guy who could do one thing well...punch)...and it was the type of shot that caught Holy clean without him seeing it......and he didn't fall down....he fell into the ropes (and got an 8 count)....and by the end of the round he was bashing Cooper around the ring.

Bowe is the only guy to drop Holyfield in his prime. A big 245 pound man who hit him numerous times and it took a shot to the back of the head to drop Holyfield -

There is no way Joe takes those shots from Bowe, Lennox and Tyson (IMO)....too big of men, who hit too hard.

Ahem… No reason to be insulting. Perhaps you should take a deep breath and try to think reasonably. As I stated, Frazier was dropped by two fighters -- Foreman and Bonavena. He recovered to beat Bonavena and was not counted out against Foreman. Are you suggesting that Riddick Bowe punched as hard as Foreman? And to suggest that Holyfield’s performance against the over the hill and poorly prepared Tyson is a good representation of his chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Please try not to have constipation of the brain and be a little open minded. I did not say that Frazier had a better chin. Simply that to say that Holyfield’s chin was “without question” better than Joe’s is not defensible. And an intellectually empty assertion.

The Great John L wrote:

meade95 wrote:Trying to suggest an over the hill Holyfield that was Kd by James Toney is an accruate representation of a prime Holy's chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Holyfield was tagged by Cooper without a doubt (a huge right hand, by a guy who could do one thing well...punch)...and it was the type of shot that caught Holy clean without him seeing it......and he didn't fall down....he fell into the ropes (and got an 8 count)....and by the end of the round he was bashing Cooper around the ring.

Bowe is the only guy to drop Holyfield in his prime. A big 245 pound man who hit him numerous times and it took a shot to the back of the head to drop Holyfield -

There is no way Joe takes those shots from Bowe, Lennox and Tyson (IMO)....too big of men, who hit too hard.

Ahem… No reason to be insulting. Perhaps you should take a deep breath and try to think reasonably. As I stated, Frazier was dropped by two fighters -- Foreman and Bonavena. He recovered to beat Bonavena and was not counted out against Foreman. Are you suggesting that Riddick Bowe punched as hard as Foreman? And to suggest that Holyfield’s performance against the over the hill and poorly prepared Tyson is a good representation of his chin and durability is silly. And intellectually empty.

Please try not to have constipation of the brain and be a little open minded. I did not say that Frazier had a better chin. Simply that to say that Holyfield’s chin was “without question” better than Joe’s is not defensible. And an intellectually empty assertion.

Nope - The notion that Tyson was washed up, old and or poorly prepared for his fight with Holyfield is simply wrong. He came into both fights in shape, cut and throwing bombs - The reality is Tyson was less past his prime then Holyfield was in 96 - Both guys were still the Top HW's out there plain and simple ....It doesn't mean both probably weren't physically better at an earlier age....but neither was "old" in 96.

Holyfield was 33/34 and Tyson was only 30!! Tyson had fought 4 times and sparred hundreds of rounds since coming out of prison (and as Foreman has said...for Tyson style...that time off was likely beneficial for him to a large degree).

Furthermore to try and analogize Holy Vs Tyson....as the same as a completely washed up 40 year old Holy Vs Toney....is truly intellectually empty ..(which was my original point)...just as was the notion of Holy being kd by Toney any reflection to what we were discussing here.... (a prime Holy Vs prime Frazier).

And I wasn't trying to be insulting...just stating bringing up that a 40 year old washed up Holy was kd by Toney means absolutely nothing in terms of what we disucssing here -

Hold the phone....I can't see a thing here...

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbvi ... inless.jpg

meade95 wrote:Nope - The notion that Tyson was washed up, old and or poorly prepared for his fight with Holyfield is simply wrong. He came into both fights in shape, cut and throwing bombs - The reality is Tyson was less past his prime then Holyfield was in 96 - Both guys were still the Top HW's out there plain and simple at that time.....It doesn't mean both probably weren't physically better at an earlier age....but neither was "old" in 96.

Holyfield was 33/34 and Tyson was only 30!! Tyson had fought 4 times and sparred hundreds of rounds since coming out of prison (and as Foreman has said...for Tyson style...that time off was likely beneficial for him to a large degree).

Furthermore to try and analogize Holy Vs Tyson....as the same as a completely washed up 40 year old Holy Vs Toney....is truly intellectually empty ..(which was my original point)...just as was the notion of Holy being kd by Toney any reflection to what we were discussing here.... (a prime Holy Vs prime Frazier).

Again you are completely incapable of reading a simple sentence. Or perhaps you have chosen to abandon your “without question” assertions and are simply incapable of admitting that you were a bit over-enthusiastic. Either way, please refrain from redirect until you have addressed the topic of our exchange.