BoxRec

I think this would be a great fight, similar to Holmes-Norton except that Evander didn't have Larry's jab. Close 15 round decision for Norton in my opinion. Any thoughts?

Ken Norton is seemingly always underrated to a degree - Though I also think he was just a step below the top echelon guys (though being there with Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Holmes makes that not so difficult....and he seemed to get jobbed Vs Ali and possibly even Holmes). - He was very good at most aspects...but not really great at any one particular thing -

I think a prime Holyfield has the gas to outwork him over a full 12 rounds - Holyfield by close but comfortable dec -

Norton-Better jab, bigger puncher, just as fast, better stamina.

A tough fight but all Evander has on Ken is a better chin and Holyfield does not have the monster punch of a Foreman or Shavers to put Norton, who walked through the best of Ali, Quarry, Holmes, and Stander (not a great boxer but hard puncher), on queer street.

dempseyfire wrote:Norton-Better jab, bigger puncher, just as fast, better stamina.

A tough fight but all Evander has on Ken is a better chin and Holyfield does not have the monster punch of a Foreman or Shavers to put Norton, who walked through the best of Ali, Quarry, Holmes, and Stander (not a great boxer but hard puncher), on queer street.

Here we go again! Ha. Norton's only big win in his career was a close dec victory Vs Ali (in which styles make fights...and Ali and Holy are nothing alike in terms of style).

Norton having a bigger punch. I don't think so. Norton arm punched way too much.....didn't commit enough to sit down on his punches.

His record is losses each time he stepped up in competition (Holyfield on the other hand was fighting championship level fights from his 11th fight on).

Norton never stopped one top level guy in his career (and lost to the rest of them he fought outside of Ali once) - Norton only stoppage of a qaulity guy is a 31 year old beat up Jerry Quarry...whom he stopped by TKO in the 5th....not a major feat considering Quarry had been stopped 5 times! prior within the last 4 years alone (and it wasn't the same J. Qaurry that say Ali faced 4 years earlier).

A prime Holyfield had faster hands (inside) better combination puncher, better chin, bigger heart and more of a shown ability to win big fights. Norton never did this -

meade95 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Norton-Better jab, bigger puncher, just as fast, better stamina.

A tough fight but all Evander has on Ken is a better chin and Holyfield does not have the monster punch of a Foreman or Shavers to put Norton, who walked through the best of Ali, Quarry, Holmes, and Stander (not a great boxer but hard puncher), on queer street.

Here we go again! Ha. Norton's only big win in his career was a close dec victory Vs Ali (in which styles make fights...and Ali and Holy are nothing alike in terms of style).

Norton having a bigger punch. I don't think so. Norton arm punched way too much.....didn't commit enough to sit down on his punches.

His record is losses each time he stepped up in competition (Holyfield on the other hand was fighting championship level fights from his 11th fight on).

Norton never stopped one top level guy in his career (and lost to the rest of them he fought outside of Ali once) - Norton only stoppage of a qaulity guy is a 31 year old beat up Jerry Quarry...whom he stopped by TKO in the 5th....not a major feat considering Quarry had been stopped 5 times! prior within the last 4 years alone (and it wasn't the same J. Qaurry that say Ali faced 4 years earlier).

A prime Holyfield had faster hands (inside) better combination puncher, better chin, bigger heart and more of a shown ability to win big fights. Norton never did this -

Gee, I actually agree with you… kind of.

I also think Norton’s resume is rather thin, along the lines of a Riddick Bowe. Not only was Quarry past his prime when he fought Norton, but he took the fight on about 10 days notice when Bonavena pulled out due to injury. Quarry was a very good fighter, and although he was stopped in his career, when you look at his resume, it’s understandable. If Holyfield had fought the level of competition that Quarry fought he would have had a few KO losses on his resume as well.

As far as Norton’s win over Ali – while it was close on the cards, if you actually watch the fight I think you would agree that it should have been a comfortable UD win for Norton. Ali was clearly not prepared in their first fight.

As far as Norton vs Holy. While I agree Norton’s resume wasn’t the greatest, he was a very good HW, and I think it would have been a very rough fight. I’d favor Holyfield, but it would have been a close, difficult fight for him.

meade95 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Norton-Better jab, bigger puncher, just as fast, better stamina.

A tough fight but all Evander has on Ken is a better chin and Holyfield does not have the monster punch of a Foreman or Shavers to put Norton, who walked through the best of Ali, Quarry, Holmes, and Stander (not a great boxer but hard puncher), on queer street.

Here we go again! Ha. Norton's only big win in his career was a close dec victory Vs Ali (in which styles make fights...and Ali and Holy are nothing alike in terms of style).

Norton having a bigger punch. I don't think so. Norton arm punched way too much.....didn't commit enough to sit down on his punches.

His record is losses each time he stepped up in competition (Holyfield on the other hand was fighting championship level fights from his 11th fight on).

Norton never stopped one top level guy in his career (and lost to the rest of them he fought outside of Ali once) - Norton only stoppage of a qaulity guy is a 31 year old beat up Jerry Quarry...whom he stopped by TKO in the 5th....not a major feat considering Quarry had been stopped 5 times! prior within the last 4 years alone (and it wasn't the same J. Qaurry that say Ali faced 4 years earlier).

A prime Holyfield had faster hands (inside) better combination puncher, better chin, bigger heart and more of a shown ability to win big fights. Norton never did this -

Some good points,I'm not suggesting Norton has Holyfield's hall of fame credentials, just that styles make fights and I think Norton would have some success against Holyfield's style, wheras I think Tyson would have bombed him out.

Don't forget Norton beat Jimmy Young(albeit controversially) who was on a roll and at the time top level.

Flump wrote:Don't forget Norton beat Jimmy Young(albeit controversially) who was on a roll and at the time top level.

Doh!!! I forgot that one. While it was a VERY close decision (I thought Young won), beating one of the best defensive HWs in history is no small feat. Young is another one of those guys that makes the 70’s HW an unforgettable bunch.

In fact, I’d almost bet that Young at his best would be able to beat Holyfield. Holy was at his best against guys who liked to rumble and Young was about as far from that as you can imagine. Yah, I’d probably favor Young over Holy. However, I’d still pick Holy over Norton – in a very tough fight.

If you honestly believe Holyfield had a bigger punch than Norton, well . . .I can't help you there.

To dismiss Quarry as a guy who'd been stopped "5 times before" is pretty juvenile. Instead of going on boxrec, how many of those fights have you actually seen? Quarry was without a doubt past his best vs Norton but the point I ws making was Quarry could still punch and Norton gutted it out in the trenches and won a slugfest.

Norton beat Ali comfortably TWICE. The rubber match was a plain robbery (although we've already had a thread discussing that fight) and if you think there first fight was close you are on drugs. With a further win over Young (I though Ken won) and a very close classic with a prime Holmes, Norton has a solid resume. In terms of all time rankings, I have Holyfield ahead of Norton. THis isn't who was greater overall. This is who wins the fight.

Style-wise how does Holyfield clearly beat Norton? I admit its a tough close fight, but the strengths of each fighter compared tilts to Norton.

dempseyfire wrote:If you honestly believe Holyfield had a bigger punch than Norton, well . . .I can't help you there.

To dismiss Quarry as a guy who'd been stopped "5 times before" is pretty juvenile. Instead of going on boxrec, how many of those fights have you actually seen? Quarry was without a doubt past his best vs Norton but the point I ws making was Quarry could still punch and Norton gutted it out in the trenches and won a slugfest.

Norton beat Ali comfortably TWICE. The rubber match was a plain robbery (although we've already had a thread discussing that fight) and if you think there first fight was close you are on drugs. With a further win over Young (I though Ken won) and a very close classic with a prime Holmes, Norton has a solid resume. In terms of all time rankings, I have Holyfield ahead of Norton. THis isn't who was greater overall. This is who wins the fight.

Style-wise how does Holyfield clearly beat Norton? I admit its a tough close fight, but the strengths of each fighter compared tilts to Norton.

Holyfield did hit harder then Norton (IMO) And I've seen plenty of Norton's fights - Actually the Duece just recently replayed his fight Vs Quarry - And if Quarry was in his prime he beats Norton most likely - He was beating Norton to the punch for the first 3 rounds then appears to get gassed (and when he hit Norton he hurt him...and when they fought inside Quarry got the best of him).

Holyfield chews Norton up inside (though Norton would try to not let the fight get there) -

Norton never stopped one big name fighter (outside of an worn out Quarry)...Holyfield has stopped several championship level fighters -

Holyfield risked enough to sit down on his punches during exchanges...Norton rarely did this.

And where did I say Style wise Holyfiled clearly beats Norton? I said I believe Holyfield would win a CLOSE but comfortable dec - Meaning it would be a good fight....but Holy would get the nod and virtually everyone would agree with it...after the fact.

And I agree that the third fight between Ali and Norton could have gone either way ....but that is neither here nor there in terms of styles and fights....regarding Norton Vs Holy.....In that Holy and Ali fight nothing alike.


And lastly me pointing out the reality that Quarry had been stopped 5 times in the previous 4 years is not juvenile in the least. In fact this perverted criticism by you would tend to show your ability to be just that.

meade95 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:If you honestly believe Holyfield had a bigger punch than Norton, well . . .I can't help you there.

To dismiss Quarry as a guy who'd been stopped "5 times before" is pretty juvenile. Instead of going on boxrec, how many of those fights have you actually seen? Quarry was without a doubt past his best vs Norton but the point I ws making was Quarry could still punch and Norton gutted it out in the trenches and won a slugfest.

Norton beat Ali comfortably TWICE. The rubber match was a plain robbery (although we've already had a thread discussing that fight) and if you think there first fight was close you are on drugs. With a further win over Young (I though Ken won) and a very close classic with a prime Holmes, Norton has a solid resume. In terms of all time rankings, I have Holyfield ahead of Norton. THis isn't who was greater overall. This is who wins the fight.

Style-wise how does Holyfield clearly beat Norton? I admit its a tough close fight, but the strengths of each fighter compared tilts to Norton.

Holyfield did hit harder then Norton (IMO) And I've seen plenty of Norton's fights - Actually the Duece just recently replayed his fight Vs Quarry - And if Quarry was in his prime he beats Norton most likely - He was beating Norton to the punch for the first 3 rounds then appears to get gassed



.

Wow. You honestly are going to tell me Quarry was beating Norton to the punch those first 3 rounds . . . .Quarry was getting beat up, and Norton was clearly the faster fighter. I really don't know what else to say . . .

dempseyfire, i really cant see how u can say norton hit harder than holyfield. norton never knocked out a world class fighter( quarry was way past it plus a late sub). that is of cource unless u want to count the unbeatable duane bobick. norton never even knocked down the world class fighters he fought.

holyfield on the other hand knocked out mike tyson, knocked down for the first time in his career riddick bowe, knocked out michael moorer, knocked down granite chin ray mercer(something norton would never be able to do).

i mean holyfield on paper is clearly the harder puncher.

dempseyfire wrote:Wow. You honestly are going to tell me Quarry was beating Norton to the punch those first 3 rounds . . . .Quarry was getting beat up, and Norton was clearly the faster fighter. I really don't know what else to say . . .

I’ve seen that fight many times, including live when it occurred, and Dempsey I mostly agree with you. The first 3 rounds were very competitive, although I agree that Norton was a bit faster than Quarry that night. However, Quarry had quite a few moments including hurting Norton several times, especially with some good body shots. He did run out of gas, mostly because he took the fight on about 10 days notice. Norton was originally set to fight Bonavena who pulled out and Quarry stepped in. Quarry hadn’t been training, but had fought a few weeks before he was called to fill in. Quarry was a throwback fighter, so he stepped in even though he couldn’t properly prepare. Compare that to the “fighters” today who need 6 months between fights, and back out when they get a hangnail.

Anyway, I think a properly trained Quarry in his prime would have KOd Norton, but that night he was not the better man. He pressed the fight for most of the first 3 rounds, but Norton had the speed advantage, and busted Quarry up pretty good.

dempseyfire wrote:

meade95 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:If you honestly believe Holyfield had a bigger punch than Norton, well . . .I can't help you there.

To dismiss Quarry as a guy who'd been stopped "5 times before" is pretty juvenile. Instead of going on boxrec, how many of those fights have you actually seen? Quarry was without a doubt past his best vs Norton but the point I ws making was Quarry could still punch and Norton gutted it out in the trenches and won a slugfest.

Norton beat Ali comfortably TWICE. The rubber match was a plain robbery (although we've already had a thread discussing that fight) and if you think there first fight was close you are on drugs. With a further win over Young (I though Ken won) and a very close classic with a prime Holmes, Norton has a solid resume. In terms of all time rankings, I have Holyfield ahead of Norton. THis isn't who was greater overall. This is who wins the fight.

Style-wise how does Holyfield clearly beat Norton? I admit its a tough close fight, but the strengths of each fighter compared tilts to Norton.

Holyfield did hit harder then Norton (IMO) And I've seen plenty of Norton's fights - Actually the Duece just recently replayed his fight Vs Quarry - And if Quarry was in his prime he beats Norton most likely - He was beating Norton to the punch for the first 3 rounds then appears to get gassed



.

Wow. You honestly are going to tell me Quarry was beating Norton to the punch those first 3 rounds . . . .Quarry was getting beat up, and Norton was clearly the faster fighter. I really don't know what else to say . . .

I said when they fought inside - Yes, when they had exchanges in tight...that is where an even post prime Quarry was getting the best of Norton....(and that is the only reason it was a decent fight for those 5 rounds).

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Wow. You honestly are going to tell me Quarry was beating Norton to the punch those first 3 rounds . . . .Quarry was getting beat up, and Norton was clearly the faster fighter. I really don't know what else to say . . .

I’ve seen that fight many times, including live when it occurred, and Dempsey I mostly agree with you. The first 3 rounds were very competitive, although I agree that Norton was a bit faster than Quarry that night. However, Quarry had quite a few moments including hurting Norton several times, especially with some good body shots. He did run out of gas, mostly because he took the fight on about 10 days notice. Norton was originally set to fight Bonavena who pulled out and Quarry stepped in. Quarry hadn’t been training, but had fought a few weeks before he was called to fill in. Quarry was a throwback fighter, so he stepped in even though he couldn’t properly prepare. Compare that to the “fighters” today who need 6 months between fights, and back out when they get a hangnail.

Anyway, I think a properly trained Quarry in his prime would have KOd Norton, but that night he was not the better man. He pressed the fight for most of the first 3 rounds, but Norton had the speed advantage, and busted Quarry up pretty good.

I actually agree that a prime Quarry beats Norton, but it's a helluva fight.

Actually Brock, on paper Norton is the harder puncher.

Out of 21 HW wins (37 HW fights), Holyfield has 11 knockouts. Out of 42 HW wins, Norton has 33 knockouts. Norton has 25 clean KOs on his record. Holyfield only has 2; vs Aldison Rodriguez and Buster Douglas.

Holyfield was an accumulation puncher. Yes he TKO'd the likes of Cooper, Tyson, and Dokes but only in the later rounds and after he had dished out FLUSH SHOT AFTER FLUSH SHOT on these guys round after round (Bert Cooper was never known for having cloe to a granite jaw but he literally walked through Evander's best shots, including the kitchen sink and household appliances) When did Evander ever knock out anyone early besides Douglas who came for the paycheck? Was he ending fights early. Even the fragile chinned Moorer kept getting up over and over again after Holyfield threw his best bombs at him. Most of his knockout victims were stopped on their feet.

On the other hand, Norton had one punch knockout power. When he landed flush on guys, he hurt them. When he finally started getting inside on Holmes he hurt him (almost knocking him out that 14th round) By comparison EVander never had an old Holmes hurt once.
Evander knocked Mercer down with a body shot. Why wouldn't Norton be able to do that? Norton had a great body attack which had Ali reeling a couple of times in their fights.

when you get Ali's attention from body shots, you must have something cookin, he was a monster at being able to take it to the body.

I have to agree with BoxBuzz here.

Its possible Norton was up for the Ali fight in a way he never achieved again, first fight that is.

dempseyfire wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Wow. You honestly are going to tell me Quarry was beating Norton to the punch those first 3 rounds . . . .Quarry was getting beat up, and Norton was clearly the faster fighter. I really don't know what else to say . . .

I’ve seen that fight many times, including live when it occurred, and Dempsey I mostly agree with you. The first 3 rounds were very competitive, although I agree that Norton was a bit faster than Quarry that night. However, Quarry had quite a few moments including hurting Norton several times, especially with some good body shots. He did run out of gas, mostly because he took the fight on about 10 days notice. Norton was originally set to fight Bonavena who pulled out and Quarry stepped in. Quarry hadn’t been training, but had fought a few weeks before he was called to fill in. Quarry was a throwback fighter, so he stepped in even though he couldn’t properly prepare. Compare that to the “fighters” today who need 6 months between fights, and back out when they get a hangnail.

Anyway, I think a properly trained Quarry in his prime would have KOd Norton, but that night he was not the better man. He pressed the fight for most of the first 3 rounds, but Norton had the speed advantage, and busted Quarry up pretty good.

I actually agree that a prime Quarry beats Norton, but it's a helluva fight.

Actually Brock, on paper Norton is the harder puncher.

Out of 21 HW wins (37 HW fights), Holyfield has 11 knockouts. Out of 42 HW wins, Norton has 33 knockouts. Norton has 25 clean KOs on his record. Holyfield only has 2; vs Aldison Rodriguez and Buster Douglas.

Holyfield was an accumulation puncher. Yes he TKO'd the likes of Cooper, Tyson, and Dokes but only in the later rounds and after he had dished out FLUSH SHOT AFTER FLUSH SHOT on these guys round after round (Bert Cooper was never known for having cloe to a granite jaw but he literally walked through Evander's best shots, including the kitchen sink and household appliances) When did Evander ever knock out anyone early besides Douglas who came for the paycheck? Was he ending fights early. Even the fragile chinned Moorer kept getting up over and over again after Holyfield threw his best bombs at him. Most of his knockout victims were stopped on their feet.

On the other hand, Norton had one punch knockout power. When he landed flush on guys, he hurt them. When he finally started getting inside on Holmes he hurt him (almost knocking him out that 14th round) By comparison EVander never had an old Holmes hurt once.
Evander knocked Mercer down with a body shot. Why wouldn't Norton be able to do that? Norton had a great body attack which had Ali reeling a couple of times in their fights.

You have to compare apples to apples here - Take fights when these guys were young to in their prime (you can't stay intellectually honest by trying to include the last 10 of Holyfield's HW fights...since 98/99....he has been a shell of his former-self in these fights....and everyone knows this) -

It would be like me trying to ride an aged and wornout Ken Norton for his loss to Gerry Cooney (I have stayed intellectualy honest and haven't done such a thing). And hell Norton then was at the same age th en as Holyfild was when he was losing a sh*t decision to L. Lewis in their rematch - A top notch 250 pound HW....not some bum like Gerry Cooney -

As for Bert Cooper taking Holyfield's best shots?? (Cocaine is a hell of a drug!! You can take several rounds from a rifle and keep going).

But taking Holyfield in his youth to his prime (and slightly past). His TKO / KO record looks like such - First off he won all his Crusier weight title defenses and unification fights via TKO or KO -

At HW from age 26 to past his prime at age 36 (even) he won 11 of his 17 victories by KO or TKO

Regarding the Iron jawed Mercer....Holyfield knocked Mercer down with a left hook to the jaw / left hook to the body combo...it was the jaw punch that sent him reeling - it was the first kd of Mercer career and it was a totally clean shot -


The reality is Norton never scored one KO or TKO over a top notch fighter or even a top contender - Outside of an aged Jerry Quarry...whom he TKO'd (which you oddly belittle Holy for scoring them) - Not too again mention that this staged Jerry Quarry had been stopped no less the 5 times previously in the last 4 years coming into the Norton fight -

A prime / youthful Holyfield has the speed, stamina, power, combination punching, chin and ability to rise to the occassion (which Norton hardly ever showed) to beat Ken Norton by comfortable Dec -

Nortons inside distance wins after first Ali fight:
Randy Stephens WKO 3
Lorenzo Zanon W KO5
Duane Bobick W TKO 1
Larry Middleton W TKO 10
Ron Stander W TKO 5
Pedro Lovell W KO 5
Jose Luis Garcia W KO 5
Jerry Quarry W TKO5
Rico BrooksW KO 1
Boone Kirkman W RTD 8

Holyfields inside distance wins as a heavyweight:
Michael Moorer W TKO 8
Mike Tyson W DQ 3
Mike Tyson W TKO 11
Bobby Czyz W TKO 5
Bert Cooper W TKO 7
James Douglas W KO 3
Seamus McDonagh TKO
Alex Stewart W TKO 8
Adilson Rodrigues W KO 2
Michael Dokes W TKO 10
Pinklon Thomas W TKO 7
James Tillis W TKO 5

meade95 wrote:...As for Bert Cooper taking Holyfield's best shots?? (Cocaine is a hell of a drug!! You can take several rounds from a rifle and keep going).

I’m glad you’re keeping the discussion intellectually honest.

The Great John L wrote:

meade95 wrote:...As for Bert Cooper taking Holyfield's best shots?? (Cocaine is a hell of a drug!! You can take several rounds from a rifle and keep going).

I’m glad you’re keeping the discussion intellectually honest.

Yeah....maybe I didn't need to go there -

All I'm saying.....Is what is common knowledge around the boxing gyms regarding Bert and that fight.....(and if people don't believe post fight screenings are flushed when it doesn't matter...because the guy lost....you don't know the dirty side of the boxing biz...and go on keep believing everything is rainbows and butterflys).

Cooper had a public falied cocaine test prior to his Foreman fight...and he took the Holyfield fight on short-notice (no time to clean his system and thus said what the hell why stop).

Just wanted to point out that even though some people think Quarry was ready for the Senior Citizen's home when he fought Norton that he was only 29. Norton himself was 31. Quarry just had a fight a month previously and couldn't have been that rusty. It was a legitimate win for Norton. Norton was simply a better figher than Quarry.

Having said that I still pick Holyfield. He was a better all around fighter (though Norton was harder to hit) and probably would have won.
Still Holyfield should be able to pull out a close decision.

Ambling Alp wrote:Just wanted to point out that even though some people think Quarry was ready for the Senior Citizen's home when he fought Norton that he was only 29. Norton himself was 31. Quarry just had a fight a month previously and couldn't have been that rusty. It was a legitimate win for Norton. Norton was simply a better figher than Quarry.

Actualy he had a fight less than a month before the Norton fight. I'm sure you saw the fight, but have you seen it recently? Quarry was heavy (207, the 2nd heaviest of his career to that point), soft and completely out of gas at the end of the 3rd round. You're correct that he was only 29 at the time of the fight, but it was a very ring worn 29 from many battles aginst top HWs, while other than Foreman Norton had had a relatively easy career to that point and had not been subjected to very many tough fights. Certainly you can't say that the Quarry who punched himself out after 3 rds against Norton was anyhting like the Quarry who went toe to toe with Frazier in 69?

And while Quarry had fought a month previous, this is not the same as having spent a planned amount of time training for a fight. Fighters and trainers setup training to ensure that the fighter is at his peak the day of the fight. That's why it's so hard to step in on short notice, which Quarry did for this fight.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Just wanted to point out that even though some people think Quarry was ready for the Senior Citizen's home when he fought Norton that he was only 29. Norton himself was 31. Quarry just had a fight a month previously and couldn't have been that rusty. It was a legitimate win for Norton. Norton was simply a better figher than Quarry.

And while Quarry had fought a month previous, this is not the same as having spent a planned amount of time training for a fight. Fighters and trainers setup training to ensure that the fighter is at his peak the day of the fight. That's why it's so hard to step in on short notice, which Quarry did for this fight.

Good point -

Norton would decision Holyfield in a competitive fight.Evander wouldn't be pushing Ken around, that's for sure.

Some of the guys Norton failed to kayo (Ali, Holmes and Young) were never ko'd in their primes. Failure to kayo these guys does not indicate lack of punching power.