BoxRec

Anyone ever see this fight? I think it;s still the second fastest ko in a real heavy weight title fight right behind Jeffries 49 sec ko. For all those who say Burns was underskilled and too small to stand a chance against any of the other great heavyies take a look at this fight .its pretty impressive.

Damn I posted in the wrong forum. Oh well.

havent seen it but would like to if it's available.....this thread will likely find it's way over to my domain soon. A few of the folks there may have some comments on this I'm sure.

I have it. I'll extend my post in a few minutes, need to restart my computer.

Okay - Squires starts fast, coming out quite aggressive. Burns is on the back foot and looks to be very agile and bouncy with a good sense of distance. His avoids most of what Squires throws and clinches when necessary, before delivering his own right hands which are sharp and regular. Squires is down three times, collapsing in the same fashion as a sinking ship on the last one.

>>>No one said that Burns was unskilled, but small?<<<

So was Sam Langford...and Harry Greb wasn't the biggest of men, nor was Jack Dillon...ditto with Mickey Walker!

So you don't think Harry Greb, Jack Dillon, or Mickey Walker could have competed and done well with some of the greatest of heavyweights? Hell, they already did, except maybe Dillon, but he was more than successful with some of the better heavyweights of his era!

Oh...at least I know who Bill Tate and Klondike were!

As I have told you many, many times before...do some real research instead of just looking at a fighter’s record and assume you know about them, because you sure as hell know very little about any of the heavyweight mentioned, or not mentioned for that matter, but then again…that old news! And no matter how many times you might want to yap about Bill Tate, Klondike, or Bearcat Wright it will never cover up the fact that you really have no clue as to what you are trying to talk about!

But instead of trying to argue with me why don't you give us all a little detail into what made, oh say Johnny Risko crap? Give us a little detail about his style and what made it crap and please try to be a little more colorful than just saying...he couldn't fight!

Also, where exactly did you read that Tunney dominated Greb in any bout? Oh, I forgot...you don't read!

wait i thought we were talkin about burns here.

Decagon wrote:Mickey Walker? I'll give you the draw with Jack Sharkey. He didn't win that one, of course, but he almost did. The heavyweights he beat were pure crap, like Risko and Wright. You might be deluded into thinking that fighters like Bearcat Wright and Big Bill Tate were among the greatest heavyweights who ever lived, but I sure as hell am not.

Hmmm, I guess I have to disagree here. To say that the HWs that Walker beat were crap is a bit of a stretch. As you noted the draw with Sharkey was quite an achievement, but to say that guys like Uzcudun (granted, he was slightly over the hill), Levinsky, Wright and Risko were crap is pretty indefensible. While none of these guys were ATGs, they were all contenders at various times in their careers, and Walkers list of HW opponents compares favorably with the opponents faced by most top current HWs. In fact, it’s a better quality of opposition than most current HW contenders have on their resume.

I’m not saying that Walker, or Burns could beat Lennox Lewis, but to imply that selected great MWs and LHWs couldn’t compete with the “modern” giant HWs of today is simply ignoring the recent accomplishments of RJJ and Toney. Certainly if a slightly past it RJJ and a 37yo, fat MW like Toney can be competitive with today’s best HWs, then Walker and Burns could as well.

You summed it up quite well John L.

Greb and Langford always get acknowledgement as giant killers, and rightly so, but Tommy Burns was of the same mold and was just as successful, if not more so, than those who are given the most credit.

Decagon wrote:Everyone else he beat was pure crap.

They all would get KTFO by Mike Tyson in a single round

I would say that if the likes of a fat Toney and Byrd can compete vs top HWs, Burns could as well, who had decent skills but also was a bigger puncher than either of those two.

I don't see Burns beating any top great HW, but he could probably give a few some tough fights.

Decagon wrote:Barry, there was only one heavyweight bout between Tunney and Greb. You should know that.

What were their weights for the Cleveland bout?

The New York Times reported the weights as 175 for Tunney and 165 for Greb however this is highly unlikely as no weights were announced at ringside and being that the fight was at catchweights they probably didnt weigh in, meaning Tunney and Greb came in at whatever weight they were most comfortable at.

klompton wrote:...meaning Tunney and Greb came in at whatever weight they were most comfortable at.

Kind of like when James Toney fights?

Decagon wrote:The issue is whether or not Walker could compete with the best heavyweights of all time. Beating Johnny Risko doesn't mean that you can compete with Sonny Liston.

Yeah, I’ll agree with that. However, it also doesn’t prove that Walker couldn’t compete with Liston. Frankly, I don’t think Walkers style was a good matchup for him against Liston, and I would expect that Liston would have handled the smaller Walker pretty easily. OTOH, one of Walkers contemporaries, Tommy Loughran would have probably given Liston fits while giving up about 35 lbs to the Big ugly Bear.

While I do agree that size definitely matters, there are too many factors involved in a boxing match to put all of your emphasis on the size differences between fighters. In boxing when all other things are equal, the bigger man will win. However, all other things are never equal in a boxing match.

Loughran had almost no punch and yet managed to whip many heavyweight contenders because of his uncanny speed and defensive skills. In ten rounds, I see him boxing Liston's ears off.

As for Burns-Squires, the Australian was roughly the same size as Rocky Marciano. So size means nothing. Tommy at his best was between 174-and 180. He was fast, fearless and a furious puncher. He hurt Phila. Jack O'Brien so much early on that O'Brien literally turned and ran from him for the better part of two 20-round fights.

Cap

Cap wrote:Loughran had almost no punch and yet managed to whip many heavyweight contenders because of his uncanny speed and defensive skills. In ten rounds, I see him boxing Liston's ears off.

Cap

I certainly think he had the proper skills to frustrate the big ugly bear, and possibly pull off the upset. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this assessment...

Can't see Loughran possibly beating Sonny Liston. How is Loughran supposed to score? He wouldn't be able to outjab Liston or fight inside. Liston would walk through his punches, so there is no "punchers chance" for Loughran.

The one fight that bothers me about Liston is his fight with Machen where he couldn't come close to putting Machen away. If Loughran fought the perfect defensive fight, perhaps he could also could go the distance. However that is unlikely.
The most likely scenario would be Liston knocking Loughran out within 3 rounds.

Ambling Alp wrote:Can't see Loughran possibly beating Sonny Liston. How is Loughran supposed to score? He wouldn't be able to outjab Liston or fight inside. Liston would walk through his punches, so there is no "punchers chance" for Loughran.

The one fight that bothers me about Liston is his fight with Machen where he couldn't come close to putting Machen away. If Loughran fought the perfect defensive fight, perhaps he could also could go the distance. However that is unlikely.
The most likely scenario would be Liston knocking Loughran out within 3 rounds.

As I said, most won't agree, but Loughran was a fair bit quicker than Sonny, so "getting past" his jab would not be a problem. There are far too many examples in boxing history of skill and quickness beating strength and power, and regardless of how many posters on this site think Liston was quick, he would seem like Ed Mahone against Loughran.

How about Billy Conn against Sonny? I think if Conn could get in and out against Louis, he'd have few problems doing the same thing against Sonny. Or maybe Sonny was quicker and more skilled than Louis?

Patterson fought the perfect fight against Liston, perfect that is for Liston. If he had boxed Liston the way he later did Chuvalo, there might have been a different ending.

Loughran, at his best, was a brilliant boxer. Liston's jab would never touch him. He would've used his defence the way Ali used his speed, and Liston would quit on his stool.

Cap

If Bert Whitehurst can take Liston the limit...twice...then an absolutely brilliant technician like Loughran certainly would as well and it would be a fight that Liston would have to use all he had to win, which I think he would have, but it would not be a surprise to see Loughran win on points either!

barry wrote:If Bert Whitehurst can take Liston the limit...twice...then an absolutely brilliant technician like Loughran certainly would as well and it would be a fight that Liston would have to use all he had to win, which I think he would have, but it would not be a surprise to see Loughran win on points either!

WooHoo!! We agree on another one!!

Yes Sonny was an ATG, but as I mentioned in another thread, I think his flaws were the types of flaws that could be more easily exploited by the more skilled ATG fighters, including selected LHs like Loughran and Conn. I’m not saying that Sonny had many flaws, because he was well schooled and technically solid, with great power and a very good chin, but he was just a slight step behind most of the truly great HWs of all time when it came to speed and quickness. And I think this would make him vulnerable to guys like Loughran and Conn. And I’m not saying that Conn or Loughran would definitely beat Sonny, but they certainly had a pretty good chance of an upset. Perhaps Conn even more so than Loughran.

I think Conn would eventually try to trade with Liston and that would be his downfall, just like it was with Louis. Tommy Loughran is another matter though who's record is just as impressive, actually more so impressive than Liston!

Liston's size would not really matter with Loughran and unless Liston landed a lucky shot early, then he would be in for a tough night. No doubt Liston was stronger, but Loughran was an absolute master-boxer who would frustrate the hell out of Liston. Ultimately I think Liston's strength would be the deciding edge, but it would be a bout that Liston would truly have to give it his all, but there sure as hell would be no quick knockouts unless Liston scored a lucky shot!

Have to strongly disagree with some comments of my esteemed collegues here.
The idea that since Liston didn't knockout Bert Whitehurst that Loughran would do well isn't very well thought out.
No one knocks everyone out. When Liston foguht Whitehurst, he was just reaching his prime. He scored knockouts in 13 of his next 14 fights.
You could just as easily spin this around and say that since Steve Hamas and Jack sharkey stopped Loughran easily that Liston would certainly stop Loughran as well.
You have to look at a fighter's whole record and then try to decide the most likely scenario.
You could argue that Loughran was a better lightheavy than Liston was a heavyweight, but to think that Loughran was even in Liston's league as a heavyweight is just silly.

Loughran would have to deal Liston's huge reach advantage. He would have to somehow get inside Liston's jab, slip in a punch and get out before getting hit. It's hard to imagine him doing this consistently.

Liston wasn't as slow as people think (Ali just made him look that way,like he did with everyone else) Liston would catch him sooner or later even if Loughran tried to run the whole fight just to go the distance.
Loughran isn't going to be able to go the whole fight without being hit. It would even be conceivable that Liston could hurt Loughran with his jab.

You are in fantasyland if you like Loughran's chance here. I would give 10-1 odds concerning Loughran going the distance, and much longer odds that he would actually win.