BoxRec

The one guy that no one seems to criticize is Sugar Ray Robinson. The other alltime time greats such as Ali,Louis, Leonard, Armstrong etc all get ripped from time to time.
However, very seldom does Robinson get any flak. Obviously he was one of the greatest of all time (may would say #1).
However, if you had to nitpick his weaknesses as a fighter, what would they be?
(Some facet of his game or individual subpar performances in specific fights)

Hope that this isn't considered blasphemy for even bringing up this topic. :)

One weakness that comes to mind is that Robinson on occasion fought the other guy's fight, i,e he traded toe to toe with opponents he could have easily outboxed such as LaMotta, Basilio and Fullmer. Even then, he did well enough not to consider it a mistake.

Decagon...did he "avoid black fighters" or did he seek a fair paycheck? Perhaps making it appear that he avoded black fighters. I'm not convinced of this accusation though it could have been a by product of what I'm suggesting.

Robinson didnt duck Burley. Robinson was a notoriously tough business man who killed several fights because he didnt get offered what he wanted. When Robinson got paid he would face anyone they put in front of him. My criticism of Robinson is that his fights were often boring. Many times he was so talented that he didnt really extend himself. His fights with guys like Maxim, Dykes, Fusari and others are tough to watch other than the fact that its Robinson because he was so far out in front of those guys.

He drove a pink Cadillac. He needs to get some grief for that.

I criticize Robinson a bit. I think he is ever so slightly overrated... A magnificent fighter, sure, one of the best of all time. But he was no greek god.

One area he is overrated is his chin. He was never stopped through punches in his entire 200 bout career so obviously he had a solid chin, but I think it was more to do with his survival skills and formidable counter punches rather than pure durability. Robinson fought LaMotta, Basilio and Fullmer, but these guys were not massive hitters, more attritional fighters. Turpin could crack but was nothing special as a puncher, Graziano hit Robinson with about one decent shot and Artie Levine, a decent puncher, almost had Robinson out. Armstrong was well past his best, Zivic and Angott were not big hitters and neither was Gavilan. Even Joey Maxim was pretty feather fisted, and he barely did anything the whole fight against Robinson.

Robinson was a far better Welterweight than he was Middleweight, I think he could have faired very well at heavier weight classes, he virtually beat Light Heavyweight champion Joey Maxim on all score cards, only to dehydrate and lose by TKO.

As great as an offensive fighter that he was, I agree, his defense wasn't perfect. Guys who stayed on top of their opponent like LaMott, Fullmer and Basilio always gave him problems.

He was a tough man in his own right, but I think when it came down to really bad pressured situations, Robinson would tire and weaken quicker than guys like LaMotta whose style was pressure. In my opinion, when LaMotta beat Robinson---that was the best Sugar Ray Robinson, he was at his top level and prime, and LaMotta beat him fair and square.

His comebacks were incredible though, and in times that you wouldn't believe he could summon up the reserves to fight back or to win, he did it. I think it was because he beat the best so good, and could do such awesome things, showing courage all the way---that made him hard to knock.

A total complete fighter? No. Awesome? No question.

Artie Levine was better than a "decent" puncher. The old timers Ive talked to who saw him said he punch like hell. So could Steve Belloise, Belloise could be losing a whole fight and knock a guy out with one punch. Tommy Bell was a good puncher at welterweight. I dont agree with the idea that Robinson didnt have a great chin. Ive seen him stand there and take full blooded shots flush on the jaw while returning fire. Chin or not thats going to make a guy think twice and Robinson didnt even blink.

..although robinson had been fighting ..and beating...middleweights a long time while he was still a welter.....klompton brings up a much forgotten robby fight...his "official" entry into the middleweight division..(though he could still make welter) was against the terrific punching steve belloise...whose left hook...which he held way out from his side...could stop a rhino. those who saw the sugar man in that fight say it was his masterpiece against middles....one of the great performances ever.

..as for the reason a hard pressing fighter could give him trouble...the hard pressing fighter mentioned in one post is lamotta....one of ther hardest pressing middles of all time...and the night he beat robinson was when robby was still a welter and giving up about 12 to 15 pounds!!!

later on, when he slugged instead of boxing with basilio and fullmer..to name two...was when he was well past his prime...the legs couldn't move as they once did....so he had to fight the only way he could....and still scored wins.

i'm not saying he was a perfect fighter.....that fighter never existed. b ut damn...it's hard to define his flaws.

Robinson had a great chin!!! To fight the kind of competition that he did throughout his career a fighter with even a slightly suspect chin would have been KO'd...hell, even fighters considered to be among the toughest ever were at some point stopped...not Robinson. Artie Levine hit him as hard as anyone and damn near KO'd him, but in typical Robinson fashion...he got up...no, he got up and stopped Levine! There was not really anything to criticize about Robinson...he was the most complete fighter, with maybe the exception of Henry Armstrong, to ever step in the ring!

Speaking of Armstrong...I cannot really recall anyone ripping Armstrong!

If ever there was a complete fighter then that was Robinson... can't see how anyone can say that he was boring to watch, its like saying Maria Callas could be boring to listen to!.... impossible surely!!!. Regarding Rays chin, he must have one of the best chins of all time...

Once again, people are taking me completely out of context.

When did I ever say Robinson didn't have a great chin?

Artie Levine was nothing more than a decent puncher. Sure, he could punch hard, but his overall punching ability was not what I'd call 'great', and neither was Graziano's and especially not Belloise's. Power is just one thing out of a whole bunch of attributes that contribute to being a great puncher... How about speed, precision, combinations, timing...

Besides, Levine almost had Robinson out. Imagine Hagler being on the verge of a knockout against Eugene Hart.

Robinson had a great chin... But it's an exaggeration to say he had one of the greatest chins of all time. He just isn't in the same league in that department as the likes of Billy Graham, Kid Gavilan, George Chuvalo, Jake LaMotta or Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Now remember - Robinson lasted so well because of other traits apart from just his 'chin'. Survival skills, fighting intelligence, formidable counterpunches, heart etc...

Truth be told - Robinson's chin was nowhere near as tested as the likes of Ezzard Charles', for instance. Someone people criticize for having a shaky chin. Sure, he might have been knocked out a couple of times (before he went into decline), but he fought far, far superior punchers to Robinson, someone people credit for being an extremely durable fighter.

Levine was a hell of a puncher and so was Belloise, more so than just decent punchers and Graziano had one of the better right hands in middleweight history. All three were a level above most other fighters of they're divisions in the punching power department. Now Ralph Zannelli and Carmen Basilio would fall into the category of having a decent punch, but Levine, Belloise and Graziano were very hard hitters.

200 fights, never stopped by an opponent, saying that he had one of the greatest chins is no exaggeration at all...it's fact...he faced many viscous punching fighters and his chin never once let him down! LaMotta is considered to have one of the best chins in history, if not the best, and rightly so, but his chin let him down a couple of times. True, Robinson had all the other traits to where he really did not need a good chin, but that's beside the point, he had one of the great chins!

barry wrote:Levine was a hell of a puncher and so was Belloise, more so than just decent punchers and Graziano had one of the better right hands in middleweight history. All three were a level above most other fighters of they're divisions in the punching power department. Now Ralph Zannelli and Carmen Basilio would fall into the category of having a decent punch, but Levine, Belloise and Graziano were very hard hitters.

200 fights, never stopped by an opponent, saying that he had one of the greatest chins is no exaggeration at all...it's fact...he faced many viscous punching fighters and his chin never once let him down! LaMotta is considered to have one of the best chins in history, if not the best, and rightly so, but his chin let him down a couple of times. True, Robinson had all the other traits to where he really did not need a good chin, but that's beside the point, he had one of the great chins!

Just typed out a long post only for my computer to freeze up towards the end...

... But in short; you don't understand my point.

I think some people just have totally the wrong idea of what the word 'overrated' means. It doesn't mean the thing in question was crap, it just means it is thought of too highly by the average fan.

Like with Robinson's chin. Many people would put him on a list of 'greatest chins' when he really doesn't deserve to be there. He was stunned, nearly knocked out and didn't even face that many punchers in his career at all - and when he did, they were relatively crude and unable to mount a consistent attack. Not once did he face a truly great puncher like Archie Moore or Joe Louis, or even Rodrigo Valdez or Gerald McClellan. He was never that tested. Of course, he did have a great chin, but not one of the greatest is what I'm saying. The 'greatest' is reserved for folks who fought better punchers and were hardly ever even stunned, let alone floored, like Hagler, Chuvalo, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...

>>>Like with Robinson's chin. Many people would put him on a list of 'greatest chins' when he really doesn't deserve to be there.<<<


What evidence do you have that would solidify such the claim?


>>>He was stunned, nearly knocked out and didn't even face that many punchers in his career at all - and when he did, they were relatively crude and unable to mount a consistent attack. Not once did he face a truly great puncher like Archie Moore or Joe Louis, or even Rodrigo Valdez or Gerald McClellan. He was never that tested.<<<


Nearly knocked out by Artie Levine, who was one of the harder punchers at his weight in that era, but nearly doesn’t cut it and being hurt by a punch from Levine is not at all disgraceful. I don’t think he faced a fighter of McClellan, Moore, or Louis’ punching capability, but he faced more than his share of hard hitting fighters, some who certainly rivaled Valdez in punching power. Randy Turpin landed pretty solid on Robinson and though he was no Moore, Turpin did have serious-hitting-power. Fighters like “California” Jackie Wilson, George Costner, Tommy Bell and others were very hard hitters as well, but the overall total amount of bouts, 200, speaks very loudly as Robinson was not down but a few times throughout his career and as has been said, he was never put down for the 10-count.


>>>Of course, he did have a great chin, but not one of the greatest is what I'm saying. The 'greatest' is reserved for folks who fought better punchers and were hardly ever even stunned, let alone floored, like Hagler, Chuvalo, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...<<<


I would be glad to see some evidence to show that Robinson, chin-wise, in no-way, compares to the likes of Chuvalo, LaMotta, Hagler or Gavilan. There is no evidence to refute Robinson not having one of the best chins, but as I said, I’d be glad to look over any such data. Off course Robinson never had to take the overall amount of punishment that George Chuvalo did, but when Robinson did have to take it, in most instances, with the exception of a couple, he always took it as well as a Chuvalo, or Hagler.

>>>Do you really think that if Robinson took the punishment LaMotta took at the Massacre, he would have lasted as long?<<<

The possibility would be very good that he would!

Decagon wrote:I think that when people talk about fighters with the greatest chins of all time, they really think of fighters that were never knocked down, or only knocked down once. Do you really think that if Robinson took the punishment LaMotta took at the Massacre, he would have lasted as long? Marvin Hagler fought all of those tough 1970s and 1980s middleweights, and he was never stunned or even cleanly knocked down. That's what people think of when they talk about the greatest chins of all time.

I'm glad you see where I'm coming from, Decagon.

You obviously havent seen many of Robinsons latter fights, when he took planty of punches unfortunately... try the third round of his 4th fight with Fullmer.... 99% of fighters would have been koed in that round and Ray was 40+ by then for chrissake... just because the guy went down couple of times... (more so when he was 40+ and still fighting top contenders and champs!) doesnt negate the fact that he had a great chin, put simply, to go through his career having fought who he did and over such a long period of time and to never have been koed shows nothing less than an exceptional chin...

The thing which marks Robinson out though is that aside from the Maxim bout, he was never stopped and never koed... this despite fighting contenders and champs right into his mid...40s... some iron chinned fighters such as Cobb and Basilo eventually ended up being stopped/koed (Cobb was koed in the 1st round of one of his last fights) Duran also had a great chin but was koed cold by Hearns... all in all off the top of my head I'd put Robinsons chin right up there as one of the best... along with Ali's, Gavilans, Canzoneries and Millers (although both Canzoneri and Miller were koed in their last fights I think) and Robinson fought longer than all the others. Also while Ray was slicker as a 147 fighter I think at 160 he favoured 'riding punches' quite often rather than blocking and dodging quite often... look at the instances where Lamotta cornered him in their 160 title bout and Ray rides the shots in a simular way to what he tried to do years later against Fullmer in their 4th bout... obviously now we'll probably get a rash of posts saying Rays defense was no good but people should remember that Robinson began his first reign at 160 at about the same age that Hagler lost the title to Leonard!... kind of makes you think that one eh!.... (well it does me! ) 8)

silkov wrote:You obviously havent seen many of Robinsons latter fights, when he took planty of punches unfortunately... try the third round of his 4th fight with Fullmer.... 99% of fighters would have been koed in that round and Ray was 40+ by then for chrissake... just because the guy went down couple of times... (more so when he was 40+ and still fighting top contenders and champs!) doesnt negate the fact that he had a great chin, put simply, to go through his career having fought who he did and over such a long period of time and to never have been koed shows nothing less than an exceptional chin...

Try reading my posts carefully next time.

..I forgot to comment on robinson's chin in my post. put it this way....lamotta had a great great great chin.....robinson had a great great chin. he started working on building up his neck muscles very early in his career as his build was of the long, lean (as a lightweight) type...and even as a middle he didn't have the blockbuster type of physique that a lamotta or marciano had.

just use some reason here....nobody goes that many fights without ever really being kayoed....against that kind of oppositiion....giving away so many pounds so often...no matter how clever or rolling with the punches he might be.

..as for levine and beloise....they hit like wrecking balls.

>>>just use some reason here....nobody goes that many fights without ever really being kayoed....against that kind of oppositiion....giving away so many pounds so often...no matter how clever or rolling with the punches he might be.<<<

Exactly!!!


>>>..as for levine and beloise....they hit like wrecking balls.<<<

Thank you!!!

I have no problem if someone wants to criticize Robinson, but I would like to see some pretty solid evidence to back up any claims.

I've already said Robinson had a great chin, so I don't know what you are all getting so uptight about.

Just don't put it in the same class as Hagler, Antuofermo, Chuvalo, McCall, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...

Jock McAvoy vs Len Harvey made the Guiness Book of Records and stood for a very long time (if not still), I believe it was for attendance at a British show and/or first televised event (?).

I seem, however to remember the first televised boxing match was Eric Boon's title fight (?).

Mills vs Woodcock, were big sellers and Savold vs Woodcock at the Whitecity Stadium.