BoxRec

During the 1980s The Ring rated all the HW champs in categories (these are from memory):

Jab, Power, Endurance, Talent, Cut resistance, Chin, Hisotrical significance, defence, hand speed, foot speed

The Top 5 were

1. Ali
2. Johnson
3. Louis
4. TUNNEY
5. Dempsey

Also during the 1980s, as Holmes was nearing the end of his reign, an article attempted to rank him head-to-head against the commonly accepted greatest of champions. These were: Johnson, Dempsey, TUNNEY, Louis, Marciano, Liston and Ali. That's right no Frazier and no Foreman. There were some letters of complaint regarding Frazier's omission but none whatsoever for Foreman.

So Tunney was a definite top 10 HW 20 years ago. This was without question... Now there are always trends and ups and downs and revisions in historical interpretation but this is beyond that.

So why the fall from grace? In the opinions of members of this board what has happened to reduce Tunney's standing so dramatically.

Ezzard,
You're it does seem that Tunney isn't rated quite as high as used to be.
I have a couple of theories;

1. In the last 20 years more footage of fighters from the 1940's 1950's and to a lesser extent from the 1930's is more available. There are companies that sell tapes of fights from these era's as well as people can watch old fights and see guys like Walcott, Charles,Patterson, Liston (all of whom used to almost always be rated lower than Tunney) or watch them on ESPN Classic. It's natural for people to rate highly those fighters that they have seen.
Unfortunately footage from Tunney's fights and fighters before him remain rare.

2. In the last 20 years Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis, and Bowe came along. Many people drop Tunney as many as 4 spots because of these guys; therefore dropping him outside the top 10.

well I think as time goes on, people forget Tunney's other accomplishments as a fighter, and all they remember him as being is a guy who ducked black fighters and beaten a faded Jack Dempsey.

Myself I never ranked Tunney that high and probably never will, as a Heavyweight that is, because he didn't do enough for one, at the weight or with the title.

Maybe he just didn't have that colorful a life for people, he was a champion most people didn't understand, he was just as comfortable reading Walt Whitman as he was trading punches, he was soft spoken and rarely bragged---in short, you could say he was quite dull as a person and in no way captivated the masses.

Myself, men like Wills or Godfrey would have given him really hard problems, as Wills was the type of man who waited for his opponents to come to him, and thrash em about when they got close enough in range, and Godfrey was so huge and powerful for the time, his kayo prowess envied Dempsey's.

I place him inside the top 10 Light Heavyweights...but as a Heavyweight, no I would place him maybe in the top 15 or 20.

Tunney faced many top opponents that were very good fighters and he managed only to lose a couple of bouts overall...and that was to Greb, probably among the top five fighters of all-time, and Tunney also avenged those losses and ended up ahead of Greb in they're series 3-2.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Myself, men like Wills or Godfrey would have given him really hard problems, as Wills was the type of man who waited for his opponents to come to him, and thrash em about when they got close enough in range, and Godfrey was so huge and powerful for the time, his kayo prowess envied Dempsey's.

Well, in all honesty I think WIlls and Godfrey would have given ANY HW in history problems, so I have to agree with this statement.

I put Tunney in my top 15 ATG HWs. I have to agree that his accomplishments at HW don't appear that impressive, but he was an incredibly quick, skilled and intelligent fighter. It's hard to watch him on film and not realize that he had the skills to perform well against just about any other HW in history. At least for me.

tunney completley avoided george godfrey, wanted no part of him. tunney was never going to give a young big powerful dangerous black fighter a shot at his title.


the more i view this matchup im not so sure tunney would have beat godfrey.


btw, godfrey was perhaps the most cuffed fighter of all time. almost all his losses were not legit. the risko loss was a farce. ive heard one report state "eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision." others have said that godfrey completley held back the whole fight cause he was in cuffs.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tunney completley avoided george godfrey, wanted no part of him. tunney was never going to give a young big powerful dangerous black fighter a shot at his title.

Total bullocks. You cannot conclude this from Tunney fighting another - and almost as deserving man - in THE ONE AND ONLY heavyweight title defense he made (other than re-fighting Dempsey).

The 1920s heavyweight champ who avoided the by far most deserving challenger for 7 long years - avoiding to cross the color line - is Jack Dempsey. If you hold a stick against Tunney for not fighting Godfrey, you need to hold a trunk against Dempsey for not fighting Wills. This is 20 times as significant.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:well I think as time goes on, people forget Tunney's other accomplishments as a fighter, and all they remember him as being is a guy who ducked black fighters and beaten a faded Jack Dempsey.

Myself I never ranked Tunney that high and probably never will, as a Heavyweight that is, because he didn't do enough for one, at the weight or with the title.

Maybe he just didn't have that colorful a life for people, he was a champion most people didn't understand, he was just as comfortable reading Walt Whitman as he was trading punches, he was soft spoken and rarely bragged---in short, you could say he was quite dull as a person and in no way captivated the masses.

Myself, men like Wills or Godfrey would have given him really hard problems, as Wills was the type of man who waited for his opponents to come to him, and thrash em about when they got close enough in range, and Godfrey was so huge and powerful for the time, his kayo prowess envied Dempsey's.

Wills peaked in the early 1920s, when Tunney was an upcoming LIGHT-heavyweight, and he was deteriorating sharply from about 1924/25 - at a time when Tunney was just about to step up to heavyweight. In othe rwords: Tunney and Wills didn't overlap much. Jack Dempsey avoided Wills, oh yes, but not Tunney.

Some people - well, one - say(s) that Tunney avoided Godfrey, but this is a more than odd charge. Godfrey was one of several challengers in the late 1920s, and by no means the obvious one (as Wills had been in the early 1920s). There were also Sharkey, Risko, Uzcudun, Heeney. Tunney fought Heeney, not Godfrey, in the one and only defense of his title. That's OK. Had he made 5 defenses without facing Godfrey, fine, but this is simply not the case.

I personally believe in something that you touched on ealrier: Tunney's reputation is still suffering from the fact that he was reading whole books, could speak in full sentences, had an honorable military career, and did well for himself after giving up boxing. Some believe all this is inadequate for a boxer. It's the same reason why Lennox Lewis doesn't get the recognition he deserves.

I place him inside the top 10 Light Heavyweights...but as a Heavyweight, no I would place him maybe in the top 15 or 20.

Top 2 light-heavyweights, and top 10 heavyweights for me.

Cheers
P

pundit wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tunney completley avoided george godfrey, wanted no part of him. tunney was never going to give a young big powerful dangerous black fighter a shot at his title.

Total bullocks. You cannot conclude this from Tunney fighting another - and almost as deserving man - in THE ONE AND ONLY heavyweight title defense he made (other than re-fighting Dempsey).

The 1920s heavyweight champ who avoided the by far most deserving challenger for 7 long years - avoiding to cross the color line - is Jack Dempsey. If you hold a stick against Tunney for not fighting Godfrey, you need to hold a trunk against Dempsey for not fighting Wills. This is 20 times as significant.

dempsey showed a lot of interest in fighting wills, including signing for the bout twice. it was a higher power that kept the dempsey-wills fight from happening. dempsey wanted it, tried to make it happen.


tunney showed NO INTEREST IN FIGHTING GODFREY. he wanted no part of him. he steered away from george godfrey and never showed any interest in wanting to fight him. he ducked godfrey.



did tunney ever fight a black fighter?? how bout a world class black fighter?

Godfrey was one of several challengers in the late 1920s, and by no means the obvious one (as Wills had been in the early 1920s).

pundit ur speaking bullshit again. while godfrey didnt stick out as much as wills, many historians view godfrey as just as good as harry wills.

godfrey at his peak was a ripped powerful skilled 6'3 230lb fighter


did u know that HARRY WILLS DUCKED GEORGE GODFREY!!!! yes the black press critisised wills because he ducked godfrey. godfrey offered to fight him many times and wills avoided fighting him.


larry gains said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."

gains was another one of the highly avoided black contenders of the 1920s who tunney never fought. gains was alot better than tom heeney!



pundit,

u have to realize most of godfreys losses were fakes. godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. he was forced to lose or carry his opponents. HARRY WILLS WAS NOT.

Decagon wrote:If a fighter throws a fight or takes a dive, it's worse than a legitimate loss, not better.

what if hes forced to throw the fight???

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

pundit wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tunney completley avoided george godfrey, wanted no part of him. tunney was never going to give a young big powerful dangerous black fighter a shot at his title.

Total bullocks. You cannot conclude this from Tunney fighting another - and almost as deserving man - in THE ONE AND ONLY heavyweight title defense he made (other than re-fighting Dempsey).

The 1920s heavyweight champ who avoided the by far most deserving challenger for 7 long years - avoiding to cross the color line - is Jack Dempsey. If you hold a stick against Tunney for not fighting Godfrey, you need to hold a trunk against Dempsey for not fighting Wills. This is 20 times as significant.

dempsey showed a lot of interest in fighting wills, including signing for the bout twice. it was a higher power that kept the dempsey-wills fight from happening. dempsey wanted it, tried to make it happen.

And next year easter and christmas are on the same day....

Dempsey avoided Wills for SEVEN LONG YEARS, even though the entire boxing world agreed that the ENTIRE TIME Wills was BY FAR the most deserving challenger. Instead Dempsey fought bums like Firpo, sick men like Miske, and blown-up light-heavyweights like Gibbons (until one blown-up light-heavyweight was too good for him).

But "he showed a lot of interest" - HUAHUAHUA.

tunney showed NO INTEREST IN FIGHTING GODFREY. he wanted no part of him.

No - he fought an opponent with a better record instead.

he steered away from george godfrey and never showed any interest in wanting to fight him. he ducked godfrey.

By that token he also ducked Jimmy the little milkboy from next door

did tunney ever fight a black fighter?? how bout a world class black fighter?

Now you tell me: what black fighter - except your pussycat Godfrey - SHOULD he have fought? In fact, what black fighter was more deserving in the mid 1920s than Harry Greb - who Tunney fought 6 times?

Thee WAS one black fighter who was MILES more deserving than all of Dempsey's opponents - Harry Wills.

PS: if you aren't capable of coming up with better arguments than thus far, don't bother trying.

greb was 160lb!!! greb was NOT A HEAVYWEIGHT!!! yet greb still beat tunney twice despite being outweighed by 15lb



6'3 230lb skilled powerful george godfrey is a lot more dangerous fight for tunney than 160lb harry greb

tunney fought a man with a better record

in case u dont know, almost all godfreys losses were fakes. godfrey was forced to carry opponents or throw fights. he was the most handcuffed fighter of all time.


everyone knew how good godfrey was when he was off the cuffs, which is why tunney wanted no part of godfrey.



1. tunney never fought a black fighter

2. tunney never fought a big heavyweight

no respectable historian or boxing fan would say that tom heeney was a better heavyweight than jack sharkey and george godfrey. yet tom heeney got the title shot instead!


tunney should be highly critisized for drawing the color line as much as he did



tunney wanted no part of a young big athletic powerful skilled 6'3 230lb black heavyweight


tunney was quoted as saying he would fight harry wills only. harry wills was very old at this point and nowhere near as dangerous as the prime godfrey.

why did tunney say he would only fight a old far past it wills but not a young hungry lion like godfrey??


harry wills even ducked george godfrey

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:no respectable historian or boxing fan would say that tom heeney was a better heavyweight than jack sharkey and george godfrey. yet tom heeney got the title shot instead!

tunney should be highly critisized for drawing the color line as much as he did

tunney wanted no part of a young big athletic powerful skilled 6'3 230lb black heavyweight

tunney was quoted as saying he would fight harry wills only. harry wills was very old at this point and nowhere near as dangerous as the prime godfrey.

why did tunney say he would only fight a old far past it wills but not a young hungry lion like godfrey??


harry wills even ducked george godfrey

I told you to shut up if you can't come up with anything better. Al this so-called "points" have been proven wrong a zillion times. Nothing is more absurd - and, sorry, rock-bottom stupid - than blaming a fighter of "ducking" because in ONE fight he fought another top contender than the one you think he should have fought.

It's different if he did this for 7 long years and the ducked fighter who was the widely recognized best challenger far and wide - but then we are with the case Jack Dempsey, not Gene Tunney.

You also didn't come up with a single black fighter bar your pussycat who Tunney SHOULD have fought.

I can tell you who Dempsey should have fought : Harry Wills.

Btw: Tunney would have fought Wills if that would have been needed to get a shot at Dempsey.

Ah: and Greb totally destroyed Dempsey in sparring. Dempsey didn't only duck Wills, he also ducked Greb.

Go home, drink a glass of milk, read a couple of books, think deep, and then try again.

You also didn't come up with a single black fighter bar your pussycat who Tunney SHOULD have fought.

GEORGE GODFREY





"
Not only did Tunney duck Godfrey but so did Dempsey and Wills. From late 1923 Baron (James) Dougherty issued challenges almost daily for Wills to take on Godfrey, who was Philadelphia's greatest drawing card. Promoters Herman Taylor and Bobby Gunnis figured such a match in Phila would do between $250 K to $500 K. and the winner would be the "logical challenger" for Dempsey. Dougherty offered all kinds of perks to Wills including that Godfrey would take the match for $ 1.

I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision.

It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko, that his first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.
By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition."- Chuck Hasson



"Tunney wanted nothing to do with Godfrey--plain and simple--too tough a fight. I will look to see what I have for references regarding Tunney and the color line. People point to him wanting to fight Wills but that was a joke--Tunney only wanted to talk that up to push his way towards a fight with Dempsey. I think Tunney may have been a racist(which would not be surprising for the times) as well as an elitist snob."- boxing historian kevin smith

TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH

"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925


they will fight a old black man well past his best days, but not a young powerful big black man



as for tunney fighting wills..............."People point to him wanting to fight Wills but that was a joke--Tunney only wanted to talk that up to push his way towards a fight with Dempsey."- boxing historian kevin smith

When Gene Tunney was active as a fighter, things were
very different. As a result, top black fighters having a
tough time of it during the 1920s. Heck! I remember
things being quite different in regards to blacks during
the 1960s, forty years later! Just think......I wasn't
living in the South at the time.

How different were things during the 1920s? White
and black reporters could not mix with each other
when Mickey Walker was being interviewed at one
point in time. As a result, a black reporter had to
persuade Walker to answer questions after the latter
was interviewed by the white reporters. In other
words, I don't think anyone born in the latter part
of the 20th Century can imagine how thing were
in the United States during the 1920s.

- Chuck Johnston

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH

"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925


they will fight a old black man well past his best days, but not a young powerful big black man



as for tunney fighting wills..............."People point to him wanting to fight Wills but that was a joke--Tunney only wanted to talk that up to push his way towards a fight with Dempsey."- boxing historian kevin smith

What a whole load of total crap that is.

At end-1925 Tunney didn't have a title, he was on his way to challenge Dempsey; and he would have fought Wills if that would have been required to get the shot at Dempsey. There was absolutely no reason at the time to fight Godfrey, who was not even a contender in 1925.

Btw, you still ahven't mentioned a black fighter Tunney should have fought but didn't, bar your pussycat Godfrey (where your case is less than convincing, to say it mildly).

There was absolutely no reason at the time to fight Godfrey, who was not even a contender in 1925.

actually george godfrey was ranked in the top 10 by the ring magazine in 1924 and 1925, so ur wrong about godfrey not being a ranked contender.

EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson

Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."

Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.

One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:
All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.

As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight."
ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.




*pundit, it appears me to godfrey was a highly avoided fighter. no one wanted to fight him cause he was too dangerous. tunney wanted no part oh him.

What a whole load of total crap that is.

no ur the one spreading the bullshit. ive given u quotes and newspaper articles defending my case. u have given me no hard evidence backing up ur point of view.




dempsey may have ducked harry wills(i dont believe he did), but ur boy tunney also ducked certain black fighters like george godfrey and quite possibly larry gains.




as for u saying harry wills is a lot better than george godfrey this is untrue. both were around the same level. many historians rate geoge godfrey just as high as harry wills.

heres one example

" In their primes, absolute primes, with a gun to my head, I would pick Godfrey over Wills. He was as strong and more mobile and threw a more diverse selection of punches. Wills was not fancy, and neither was Godfrey, but Harry was a strength fighter in my mind, using his height, weight and size to out physical guys. He could box, and was a good defensive fighter, but I don't think he could out muscle big George, then again, nobody at that time could in my mind." - boxing historian kevin smith

EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson

Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."

Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.

One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:
All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.

As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight."
ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.




*pundit, it appears me to godfrey was a highly avoided fighter. no one wanted to fight him cause he was too dangerous. tunney wanted no part oh him.

There was absolutely no reason at the time to fight Godfrey, who was not even a contender in 1925.

actually ur WRONG AGAIN.......... george godfrey was ranked in the top 10 by the ring magazine in 1924 and 1925, so ur wrong about godfrey not being a ranked contender.

bump