BoxRec

I've just read an interview from the early 1970's with Henry Armstrong were he claims that he 'wore the cuffs' in his first two fights with Baby Arizmendi in exchange for money. He also claimes that he 'held up' Barney Ross for the last for rounds of there Welterweight Title fight on the pleading of the Ross corner.

Another claim he makes is that in his attempt to win the 'World' Middleweight Title from Ceferino Garcia the referee George Blake who was also the sole judge of the fight was 'got at' and told not to let Armstrong win the fight.

Any views fight fans?

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009018

I've heard it before except the Baby fights. Ross's corner wanted to pull him out but he refused to quite and so Armstrong agreed to 'carry' him through the last 3 rounds of their fight. The Garcia fight was called a draw I think though Armstrong won clearly. I think I remember reading that the ref got out of the ring as soon as the fight ended and gave his 'verdict' as he left. As for Armstrong wearing 'cuffs' in some fights it happened often with top black fighters and I guess he had no choice but to do that or not get fights. I've read that Robinson often 'carried' fighters, especially in the 40s. When you think about the racial situation at the time it makes Armstrongs career even more amazing. He had about two strikes against him before he even got in the ring.

silkov....my guess is that the consequences of "not playing ball" would be perhaps more serious than just not getting fights. It was probably life preserving. Such were the times.

BoxBuzz wrote:silkov....my guess is that the consequences of "not playing ball" would be perhaps more serious than just not getting fights. It was probably life preserving. Such were the times.

I read something recently about there being rumours that Battling Siki's death was connected to him not 'playing ball' rather than the consequences of a drunken brawl as is commonly accepted...

I have often thought of how Armstrong and Robinson got so many chances at the title when other coloured fighters got frozen out

6of 1 and half a dozen of the other I`m thinking

tonyevs wrote:I have often thought of how Armstrong and Robinson got so many chances at the title when other coloured fighters got frozen out

6of 1 and half a dozen of the other I`m thinking

I wouldnt say that they got 'loads of chances' they had one chance and won the titles... both served long apprenticeships before they got their title shots... Ray had been the best 147 fighter for a long time before he finally got his title shot, same with Armstrong... basically they were too good to be ignored...

I wouldnt say that they got 'loads of chances' they had one chance and won the titles...

On top of that both fighters put together,long dominant winning streaks against good oppisition that not only created a tremendous buzz but also gave the powers that be very little excuse to deny them their due.
Robinson went 33-0-1 after his lone loss to Lamotta before he got his shot. Armstrong went 33-1 (on a foul) before getting his title shot.

.....it helped that armstrong was backed by al jolson and george raft...jolson's huge popularity made him a good mouthpiece for armstrong..who was so talented and so exciting that the crowds loved him anyway......but jolson helped a lot. raft...well..raft was a popular movie star....but also he had the right....ah..connections to help the hammering one get the title shots he deserved.



interesting that sugar ray's carrying fighters comes up here...because one of the fighters he carried was armstrong himself. nothing nefarious or gang stuff here....henry was well on his way down by then and the sugarman was just about at his peak. armstrong had been one of his idols....and this fight gave him a decent pay day and robinson easily outboxed him....mostly jabbing from a distance. armstrong later complained that he should have won...but robinson just ran all through the fight!!! well....i suppose this was a way to keep his pride.

the beating fritzie zivic gave armstrong...complete with the standard thumbs, butting and the rest of the zivic arsenal got robinson incensed and was the reason he demanded a fight with fritzie. more than few boxing folks tried to talk him out of it...said zivic would ruin him....would thumb his eyes....he was too green for the experienced zivic...the fight didn't have to be held...robinson's resume' was all he needed....but robinson insisted and they fought....and robinson beat him ion two consecutive fights, stopping him in the second one.

Armstrong said Zivic was the best fighter he fought in his entire career.

Zivic handled Armstrong by throwing short uppercuts as Armstrong came in. He had the solution to Armstrong's style

and the physical ability to execute the solution.

Would have been interesting to see Robinson fight a prime Henry Armstrong.

granberry wrote:Would have been interesting to see Robinson fight a prime Henry Armstrong.

Well, a prime Henry Armstrong was a featherweight. I'd like to see him against Willie Pep.

DoubleM wrote:

granberry wrote:Would have been interesting to see Robinson fight a prime Henry Armstrong.

Well, a prime Henry Armstrong was a featherweight. I'd like to see him against Willie Pep.

Yeah, Armstrong was way past his prime as a lightweight and welterweight.

Tell that to Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, etc etc etc.

Armstrong was probably a natural lightweight more than anything else... he used to drink beer to get his weight up t fight the heavier guys... but Feather or Lightweight he'd still handle most of the top 147ers I think and probably a lot of the 160 pound champs too...

Light-Welterweight would have been a great division for Armstrong.

granberry wrote:Armstrong said Zivic was the best fighter he fought in his entire career.

Zivic handled Armstrong by throwing short uppercuts as Armstrong came in. He had the solution to Armstrong's style

and the physical ability to execute the solution.

Whilst I would not take anything away from Zivic I think it was unfortunate that him and not Charley Burley got the title shot against Armstrong.

Jaclem wrote:.....it helped that armstrong was backed by al jolson and george raft...jolson's huge popularity made him a good mouthpiece for armstrong..who was so talented and so exciting that the crowds loved him anyway......but jolson helped a lot. raft...well..raft was a popular movie star....but also he had the right....ah..connections to help the hammering one get the title shots he deserved.



interesting that sugar ray's carrying fighters comes up here...because one of the fighters he carried was armstrong himself. nothing nefarious or gang stuff here....henry was well on his way down by then and the sugarman was just about at his peak. armstrong had been one of his idols....and this fight gave him a decent pay day and robinson easily outboxed him....mostly jabbing from a distance. armstrong later complained that he should have won...but robinson just ran all through the fight!!! well....i suppose this was a way to keep his pride.

the beating fritzie zivic gave armstrong...complete with the standard thumbs, butting and the rest of the zivic arsenal got robinson incensed and was the reason he demanded a fight with fritzie. more than few boxing folks tried to talk him out of it...said zivic would ruin him....would thumb his eyes....he was too green for the experienced zivic...the fight didn't have to be held...robinson's resume' was all he needed....but robinson insisted and they fought....and robinson beat him ion two consecutive fights, stopping him in the second one.

George Raft showed up for a Grand Opening of a C.M.A. back in the 60's in Phoenix Az At that time C.M.A. was the first attempt at a "Wal Mart" style of store. My Guitar teacher and I went out there to see him and My guitar teacher who was an avid boxing fan got into an "Armstrong" conversation.......It was obvious to me that George was passionate about boxing and this particular fighter. At that time I was a young enthusiast but without a lot of historical perspective. I only wish I would have listened better or remembered more of this conversation.

..in the movie "stage door canteen" which is the story about that free-to-servicemen showplace, restaraunt and dance hall.....top celebreties donated there time free of charge...not just entertaiing but serving food, washing dishes....whatever had to be done...an actor playing a service man asks george raft (he might have been washing dishes...don't remember) who was the greatest all-time fighter, raft immediatley replies "henry armstrong" and i think he give the three titles as the main reason.

granberry wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

granberry wrote:Would have been interesting to see Robinson fight a prime Henry Armstrong.

Well, a prime Henry Armstrong was a featherweight. I'd like to see him against Willie Pep.

Yeah, Armstrong was way past his prime as a lightweight and welterweight.

Tell that to Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, etc etc etc.

Don't try and take my words out of context and be all sarcastic. I never said he was 'way' past his prime. But he was better at featherweight - Armstrong was big at 126lbs, a wrecking ball, one of the greatest punchers we've ever known - as a welterweight he was stockier, slower, less agile and less powerful in accordance to his weight.

armstrong was definitely at his best as a feather.no difference between light and welter as i think he fought at the lightweight limit anyway.

Armstrong never defended his featherweight title after he beat Petey Sarron. The majority of his championship career was after that.

He never made that weight again once he beat Sarron.

Decagon wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:Light-Welterweight would have been a great division for Armstrong.

What's the point if he could compete with the best welterweights and middleweights in the world?

The point I was making was if there had been a competative and many big money fights and a respected Title at 140lbs in Armstrongs day then from a physical point of view I believe the Light-Welterweight division would have suited Armstrong.

Armstrong had to drink pints of beer to bulk up to fight at Welterweight.

Or are you saying Armstrong made a mistake having all those fights at Feather and Lightweight and should have only fought opponents of Welterweight and above?

KOJOE90 wrote:Armstrong had to drink pints of beer to bulk up to fight at Welterweight.

Oh the sacrifice!

Poor guy.

mattym wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:Armstrong had to drink pints of beer to bulk up to fight at Welterweight.

Oh the sacrifice!

Poor guy.

Broncano wrote:

granberry wrote:Armstrong said Zivic was the best fighter he fought in his entire career.

Zivic handled Armstrong by throwing short uppercuts as Armstrong came in. He had the solution to Armstrong's style

and the physical ability to execute the solution.

Whilst I would not take anything away from Zivic I think it was unfortunate that him and not Charley Burley got the title shot against Armstrong.

It was pretty rough going in there with Armstrong.

Burley (as good as he was) may not have had the right style for handling Armstrong.

Armstrong's comment that Zivic was the best fighter he fought in his entire career comes from Jeff McCracken (apparently a bodyguard for Frankie Carbo) in a letter to Ring magazine.

granberry wrote:.

Burley (as good as he was) may not have had the right style for handling Armstrong.

He did have the right style for Fritzie though.

Agreed on Burley-Armstrong, although I must say boxing history was robbed of an all-time great match up.