BoxRec

Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano


heres my list


1. sonny liston
2. rocky marciano
3. jack dempsey
4. joe frazier

1.) Marciano
2.) Frazier
3.) Dempsey
4.) Liston


Marciano and Dempsey knew how to climb off the floor to win a fight, Dempsey had better skill and was usually the one giving out punishment rather than him taking it. Marciano was decptively defensive and got hit less often than people think---was only knocked down twice in his career both by HOF fighters, and they were quick knock downs.

Frazier could take a helluva beating to win a fight. He was knocked down 6 times by Foreman and got up each of those six times when they met in 1972, considering Ken Norton could only get up 3 times (?) and Frazier took alot of Ali's punches, beat alot of the best fighters in the greatest era in HW history, taking one, two, three, four to give one.

Liston could take a punch, but Liston didn't prove it against Ali in the second fight, as he was down 20 seconds on the canvas from a phantom punch (Liston says he didn't wanna get up cus Ali was 'insane') whatever the reason may be, Liston also didn't show it against Leotis Martin, though in fairness Liston was passed his physical best, but was good enough to get in the HW tournament for the #1 contenders spot.

Liston I think is untested really when it comes to his chin, most guys were running away from him, afraid of his power, so Liston never really fought a man who really mixed it up with Liston, until he faced Ali, and he crumbled inside.

The thing is though this is unfair to Frazier because neither Marcinao or Dempsey fought anyone who hit as hard as Foreman... Rocky was floored by Moore and Walcott, I think Foreman would do a simular job on Rocky that he did on Frazier... looking at the punches Frazier took from Ali and many others in his career without going down I'd rate Fraziers chin at least on a par with Rocky if not higher...

1. Liston
2. Frazier
3. Marciano
4. Dempsey

Decagon wrote:Firipo could hit a little bit.

He sure could. And Dempsey went down in that fight.

Marciano
Frazier
Dempsey
Liston

1.Frazier
2.Liston
3.Dempsey
4.Marciano

Frazier by far has the best chin of these four. Walcott,Moore or Firpo wouldnt come close to knocking down prime Frazier.

theone wrote:1.Frazier
2.Liston
3.Dempsey
4.Marciano

Frazier by far has the best chin of these four. Walcott,Moore or Firpo wouldnt come close to knocking down prime Frazier.

Frazier was down in his second pro fight, and floored twice vs Bonnevena.

Best chins of the 4? Its close. My guess

1. Liston
2. Dempsey
3. Marciano
4. Frazier

The only problem I have with Frazier is, though he couldn't survive Foreman, he did get up 6 times. And though he fought Ali in 3 hard battles, you can make the argument that Ali never did hit anyone really hard, as he punched from off his toes and from a distance---very rarely did you ever see Ali hurt someone with a single punch.

So was Frazier really a man with a solid chin? Or was it over-valued because he fought a man (Ali) who lacked the benefit of a true KO punch? I lean a little towards that he had a better chin than most, but it does make you wonder a bit.

I think people are confusing Frazier's chin with his heart.

1. Liston
2. Frazier
2. Marciano
4. Dempsey

I pick Liston as No. 1 because he was never conclusively knocked out until the end (Leotis Martin), his fights with Ali were dubious to say the least. I dont think anyone would stop the peak Sonny Liston
Frazier at No.2 because I dont think Archie Moore or Joe Walcott would knock him down, and Foreman would crush Marciano and Dempsey
Marciano above Dempsey because he was never stopped

Frazier at No.2 because I dont think Archie Moore or Joe Walcott would knock him down

yet oscar bonaevena and michael bruce would?

Liston
Marciano
Dempsey
Fraizer

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Frazier at No.2 because I dont think Archie Moore or Joe Walcott would knock him down

yet oscar bonaevena and michael bruce would?

Who exactly was Marciano facing in his 2nd and 12th fights exactly? I don't think Marciano beats Bonavena in his 12th fight. The Rock didn't face a real contender until his 26th fight against Roland LaStarza, which is more debatable than Frazier's win over Bonavena, especially since no film is available and the fight was essentially a draw. Don't give me that crap that in the fight before that he fought Carmine Vingo. Who had Vingo fought to make him a legitimate contender? The same kind of people that Vaughn Bean did? At least LaStarza beat Cesar Brion and Bonavena beat George Chuvalo.

I don't think Moore or Walcott beat Frazier either. Frazier is a top 10 ATG while both Moore and Walcott fall short of that. Honestly, any fighter can be dropped at any time against any opponent, more so when the fighting weight is around 200. I don't see PRIME Frazier getting dropped by either guy, but it is entirely possible since both packed power in their fists. It is also just as possible that Chris Byrd could have dropped the Rock. It is somewhat a game of chance, especially when balance comes into play.

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Frazier at No.2 because I dont think Archie Moore or Joe Walcott would knock him down

yet oscar bonaevena and michael bruce would?

Who exactly was Marciano facing in his 2nd and 12th fights exactly? I don't think Marciano beats Bonavena in his 12th fight. The Rock didn't face a real contender until his 26th fight against Roland LaStarza, which is more debatable than Frazier's win over Bonavena, especially since no film is available and the fight was essentially a draw. Don't give me that crap that in the fight before that he fought Carmine Vingo. Who had Vingo fought to make him a legitimate contender? The same kind of people that Vaughn Bean did? At least LaStarza beat Cesar Brion and Bonavena beat George Chuvalo.

I don't think Moore or Walcott beat Frazier either. Frazier is a top 10 ATG while both Moore and Walcott fall short of that. Honestly, any fighter can be dropped at any time against any opponent, more so when the fighting weight is around 200. I don't see PRIME Frazier getting dropped by either guy, but it is entirely possible since both packed power in their fists. It is also just as possible that Chris Byrd could have dropped the Rock. It is somewhat a game of chance, especially when balance comes into play.

Good post. As you noted, Frazier being dropped in his 2nd fight really doesn’t mean much. Has anyone here ever seen this fight? And the fact that he was able to beat Bonavena in his 12th(!) fight is an incredible accomplishment.

I don’t think Brocky gives Smokin’ Joe the respect he deserves.

Who exactly was Marciano facing in his 2nd and 12th fights exactly?

rocky was thrown to the wolves early on.

marciano in his 3rd and 4th professional fights fought 26-0(23) hard punching eddie ross and 15-1 hard hitting Bobby quinn. both were heavy favorites over marciano and both were considered hard hitting prospects(especially ross) but neither floored marciano. so marciano did face some hard punchers early on and he wasnt floored like frazier was! marciano was being fed to pad up ross and quinns records......

I don't think Marciano beats Bonavena in his 12th fight.

joe frazier had world class training and far more experience than marciano by his 12th fight. frazier had a big amatuer career and had been boxing alot longer than rock. rocky had NO world class training by his 12th pro fight(he was doing basically everything on his own) and he started boxing late and had virtually no amatuer experience.


i would say by the time marciano faced roland lastarza the first time.....he equaled joe frazier in his 12th pro fight in terms of experience and world class training.

The Rock didn't face a real contender until his 26th fight against Roland LaStarza, which is more debatable than Frazier's win over Bonavena,

didnt u read marcianos book?

its cause rocky had no experience, he was very raw and he had just started training with goldman. he needed to do a lot of training and needed some experience before he was going to be sent in vs a contender. thats called good management. joe frazier was far more expeirenced, and had far more training by his 12th pro fight than marciano did by his 12th pro fight. even so marciano was still raw and unpolished by his 26th pro fight and it wasnt until 1951 that he entered his prime.


under modern points sytem bonavena beats frazier since he would get a 10-7 round in the 2nd. under a modern points system marciano beats lastarza by an even wider margin since he floored lastarza in the 4th meaning a 10-8 round vs marciano. so fraziers win over bonavena is more debatable. in fact i have heard that even in fraziers own time had the fight been scored on points system bonavena would have won.

Don't give me that crap that in the fight before that he fought Carmine Vingo. Who had Vingo fought to make him a legitimate contender? The same kind of people that Vaughn Bean did? At least LaStarza beat Cesar Brion and Bonavena beat George Chuvalo.

Vingo was a very good prospect. he wasn a world class fighter but neither was rocky yet. rocky was very green. Vingo was a 6'4 190lb bronx heavyweight with over an 80" reach. he had the physical tools, and skills that many thought gave vingo a chance to be a future champion. Vingo could hit, charlie goldman and whitey bimstean said so. Vingo smashed rocky with flush punches yet rocky refused to go down. rocky said after the 3rd round to goldman "i have never been hit by anything so hard in my life". the fact he shook rocky up so much and the fact people like rocky, goldman, whitey bimstein, and other people around that time said Vingo could hit clearly showed u vingo had some power.
YET MARCIANO WASNT FLOORED. u gotta remember marciano had no defense during this time. goldman had no polished him up. he was taking flush punches every fight. how marciano made it to 1951 without being floored shows u how great a jaw marciano had.


was vingo a world class fighter? no but he was a very good prospect with loads of potential and great physical tools.

Frazier is a top 10 ATG while both Moore and Walcott fall short of that. Honestly, any fighter can be dropped at any time against any opponent, more so when the fighting weight is around 200. I don't see PRIME Frazier getting dropped by either guy, but it is entirely possible since both packed power in their fists.

if walcott tags frazier with the exact same left hook he knocked ezzard charles out with(like he did to marciano), u better believe fraziers going down. of course frazier would get up.

I don't think Moore or Walcott beat Frazier either.

no ones saying they will. moore and walcott didnt beat marciano either.

It is also just as possible that Chris Byrd could have dropped the Rock. It is somewhat a game of chance, especially when balance comes into play.

chris bryd? u must be kidding me. joe louis hit rocky flush, and rocky didnt go down and even the 1950s louis was heavy handed. rocky took flush right hands from rex layne who packed a heavy right hand. many fighters hit marciano when he was off balance.......but it took alot of power to drop him.......something byrd didnt have.

who cares who beat who.......were strickley talking about chins here. frazier beating bonavena doesnt have anything to do with his chin

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:It is also just as possible that Chris Byrd could have dropped the Rock. It is somewhat a game of chance, especially when balance comes into play.

chris bryd? u must be kidding me. joe louis hit rocky flush, and rocky didnt go down and even the 1950s louis was heavy handed. rocky took flush right hands from rex layne who packed a heavy right hand. many fighters hit marciano when he was off balance.......but it took alot of power to drop him.......something byrd didnt have.

You obviously were not paying attention to what I said. Any boxer can knock other fighter down at any given time. I used Chris Byrd as an example since he is not thought of as a hard puncher. Do I think that Byrd drops Marciano? No. But it is entirely possible that if he lands the right punch, he could drop any fighter. You have to judge a fighter's chin by his overall career. Frazier took a lot of hard shots throughout his career that didn' t drop him. A prime Frazier went 15 rounds with Bonavena in the rematch and didn't go down.

He got caught with a shot in his 2nd fight and went down. Big deal. He got up and KO'd the guy. Henry Armstrong got KO'd in his pro debut and he had a fantastic chin. Ali went down in his 11th fight against a much lesser fighter than Bonavena in Sonny Banks, so what? It was early in his career and he came back to win the fight. He proved it over the course of his career, as Frazier did. You can't use knockdowns early in a fighters' career, especially when they got up and won, as a basis why better fighters such as Walcott and Moore could drop them.

I'll give you this, Walcott and Moore stood a good chance of being able to drop Joe Frazier in his 2nd and 12th fights

frazier had a damm good chin, im not trying to sell it short.


frazier also clearly faced the harder punchers than marciano. its just think of it this way........marcianos the only HW champion on film i have never seen badly hurt on the verge of getting Kayoed meaning rubbery legs, out on his feet, glassey eyed. WE NEVER SAW THAT WITH ROCKY.



does anyone think frazier had a better chin than liston?

if walcott landed his left hook flush on frazier like he did vs charles/marciano, frazier would do down. he would get up of course. walcott was a damm hard puncher. harder puncher than archie moore at heavyweight. walcott was by far the hardest hitter marciano ever fought.



prime frazier did not get tagged by oscar. he was scared to death of frazier.....he held joe the whole time. oscar bonavena is a hard puncher though i dont hold it against joe for getting dropped. but i do take notice that frazier was badly hurt and almost kayoed vs bonavena.

1. Marciano
2. Dempsey
3. Liston
4. Frazier

barry wrote:1. Marciano
2. Dempsey
3. Liston
4. Frazier

barry wuts ur reasoning for these rankings

Well Marciano was never knocked out...he was hit with bombs and the very few times that he was knocked down he was up almost immediately with a clear head.

Dempsey was stopped once in a bout that was considered to be very shady and he was not knocked out in that bout and the other very few bouts that he touched down in, like Marciano, he was up and pretty clear-headed after which he would usually put a beating on his opponent.

Liston was knocked out by one of the lightest knockout punches I have ever seen in the second bout with Ali and Martin knocked him out. Liston was a tough, tough man, but I think he was more like Tyson in that he was a bully who scared the shit out of opponents, but when he was faced with an opponent that not only was not afraid of him, but an opponent that wanted to hurt him he was no longer the intimidating killer that he seemed to be against lesser opponents.

Frazier...well, actually I think he should be ahead of Liston because other than in the bouts with Foreman, Frazier was rock solid and he took one of the worst beatings a man could take without leaving his feet, so I would actually have Frazier 3rd and Liston 4th.

But most important in my opinion for those mentioned is how the fighter reacted when they were hurt, or knocked down and Dempsey and Marciano always got up clear-headed to win, except when Tunney put Dempsey down, he didn't win that bout, but he got up and fought, whereas Liston and Frazier lost, I think, every bout that they were knocked down in.

There is more to a good chin than just not going down. If a fighter gets rocked and stays on his feet while the opponent beats the bejesus out of him and he is basically just wobbling around the ring out on his feet while the referee stops the bout, well that most certainly is not a better chin than a fighter getting knocked down who gets right up with a clear head and goes about business and wins that fight! Some would say that is heart, but heart does not clear your head after a hard shot has knocked you silly...no...a good chin does that...it's heart that keeps a fighter on his feet and it's heart that keeps him up while the opponent launches hooks off of his noggin until the ref stops it!

As to the fighters they faced...Dempsey probably fought more heavy-hitters than any of the fighters with the exception of maybe Frazier and I guarantee that Fred Fulton, Bill Brennan and Luis Firpo could knock out Frazier if they hit him...so could Carl Morris, Arthur Pelky, Jess Willard and Gunboat Smith. And for the record, even though he was older and at the end of the line in the ring, Joe Louis could still cripple people and Walcott, Moore and Charles could knockout any man they hit right. None had the raw power of a Foreman, most had better technique and straighter punches, but they all had very heavy hands that could knockout damn near anyone.

I’m just going on what they did in the ring and what they didn’t do in the ring!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:does anyone think frazier had a better chin than liston?

Yes

barry wrote:... whereas Liston and Frazier lost, I think, every bout that they were knocked down in.

Frazier was dropped by Bruce and came back to KO him in the next round. He was also dropped by Ringo twice in his 12th fight and came back to win a decision.

As to the fighters they faced...Dempsey probably fought more heavy-hitters than any of the fighters with the exception of maybe Frazier and I guarantee that Fred Fulton, Bill Brennan and Luis Firpo could knock out Frazier if they hit him...so could Carl Morris, Arthur Pelky, Jess Willard and Gunboat Smith.

I highly doubt this. Frazier would steamroll those fighters just as easily as Dempsey did, if not worse. To say they could probably knockdown Fraizer if they landed cleanly is one thing, but them KOing someone like Frazier seems as near as impossible an accomplish as you can get in boxing.

And for the record, even though he was older and at the end of the line in the ring, Joe Louis could still cripple people

Well, the only half way decent guy Louis stopped in his comeback was Lee Savold , and when I say halfway decent I'm being REALLY generous. And Savold was no stranger to getting knocked out. Its hard to judge his power at that stage of his career when the guys he crippled were really not that hard to cripple.

>>>Frazier was dropped by Bruce and came back to KO him in the next round. He was also dropped by Ringo twice in his 12th fight and came back to win a decision.<<<

That is correct!




>>>I highly doubt this. Frazier would steamroll those fighters just as easily as Dempsey did, if not worse. To say they could probably knockdown Fraizer if they landed cleanly is one thing, but them KOing someone like Frazier seems as near as impossible an accomplish as you can get in boxing.<<<

I don’t think they would knockout Frazier, but they could if they landed. Most likely a bout with Frazier would be very similar to what Dempsey did and I’m sure Frazier would be just as impressive…though Frazier probably would not get the job done quite as quick as Dempsey did…it would probably take two, or three rounds, but that was Frazier’s style…he wasn’t a first round knockout specialist as Dempsey was.


>>>Well, the only half way decent guy Louis stopped in his comeback was Lee Savold , and when I say halfway decent I'm being REALLY generous. And Savold was no stranger to getting knocked out. Its hard to judge his power at that stage of his career when the guys he crippled were really not that hard to cripple.<<<


Savold, but Freddie Beshore was a very good fighter as well. Louis still had the punching power, he just did not have the same speed, or top coordination to unleash it, but he could certainly still knock an opponents head off!