BoxRec

Please don't just go on the thread title.

In the interests of fostering discussion I thought that I would put this statement out there and see what people think.

“The Gerry Cooney who fought Larry Holmes in 1982 was a better fighter than anyone Tyson fought prior to his prison stay.”

Agree or disagree?

I don't know where I fall myself, but it’s something that I would be interested to hear people's opinions on.

I would say Tyrell Biggs was better than Cooney but I get your point. Tyson cannot hang his hat on too many big wins and he was a fraud in many respects all along. Tyson was in the right place at the right time when it comes to the HW division. The HW division was not loaded with a lot of overwhelming talent then either and Tyson took advantage of it.

I'd say there were 8 or 9 better opponents than Cooney in his pre-prison career, although none until he was champion. I always considered Ruddick to be his most dangerous fight although ofcourse Tyson had a loss then and there was a known way to beat him. Larry Holmes, Spinks, Tubbs, Tucker would all be clearly better opponents, Biggs, Thomas, Berbeck maybe, Carl Williams, Bruno, Smith probably not and even Buster was probably not a better fighter than Cooney, it was just than 1 performance.

I always think that people tend to forget just how good Cooney was when he fought Holmes.

I watched the Holmes-Cooney fight a while ago with my brother and, despite knowing the result, we were utterly engrossed.

Cooney was a very good fighter. Especially when you consider his fights with Lyle and Norton. I think that after the Holmes fight he fizzled out. However prior that fight, and during it, he was a great boxer.

Later other problems got in the way.

Honestly I thought that Cooney could have won that fight. If he had tried to box his fight rather than getting obsessed over people saying he couldn't go 15 rounds then maybe things would have gone differently. Holmes was a great champion though and could easily have gone just the same.

I don’t know if I agree with the statement that started the thread, but I do think Cooney was a much better fighter in his prime than many people give him credit for.

< Many people don't give Tyson the credit he deserves. He fought during a down time in the heavyweight division ... just like Marciano. But you have to consider how Tyson was able to completely dominate the competition. That has to be factored in.

:( < Unfortunately, we will never know what Tyson could have been. If he would have stayed with Rooney, he would have killed Buster Douglas. Then his superfight with Holyfield would have been on. Do you think a determined pre-jail Tyson loses to Holyfield?

< There is a strong urge to say Tyson was a farce. But he was no Sam Peter of Jeff Lacy. Mike Tyson, before he offcially went crazy, was not a one dimensional fighter. He was great defensively. He had great footwork. He punched with skill. The post-Rooney Tyson is the one who stood straight up and threw wild bombs. Before that, Tyson was extremely technically sound and was improving with every fight.

I agree.

Tyson in his prime was a great fighter.

I didn't mean for the thread to denigrated Tyson.

It's more about just how good Gerry Cooney was when he was at his best.

you should ask this in the Boxers of the past thread, you'll get more of the response you would like. To answer your question myself I agree. None of Tysons opponents had a run like Cooney had leading up to his fight w/ Holmes...Stopping each of the following in under 6 rounds total...Jimmy Young (TKO1) Ron Lyle (KO1) and Ken Norton (TKO4). Tyson beat some decent guys like Donovan Ruddock 2x, Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks (not a real HW), Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes (Still better than people admit), Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker and Trevor Berbick. All those fighters were good but Cooney at that time in my opinion was a better fighter than each. Re-post this in the boxers of the past forum.

Anyone was better than Tyson's comutition in the 80's becouse there was noone that was good other than the fasthanded,speedy tyson that would have been demolished by anyone with a decent jab with power to keep the little man at bay....Tyson was only as good as the 80's let him be and nothing more....If he was a lightheavy,then I would say he could have been a all time great....Ive seen everyone of his fights and laugh at how they pumped him up,while he was looking like a B class fighter in alot of his first 20 fights before stoping them....End of story....

Cooney could hit like hell with that left hook! Did anybody see the Norton fight? Man he almost killed Kenny in about 45 seconds!

Unfortunatly with Cooney their are to many unanswerd questions. He was pretty much protected throughout his career and never really fought top contenders. Was given a few fights with name fighters who were washed up, a common tactic in the fight game. So you ask a fair question but one that their is really not enough information to answer.

ron lyle, ken norton, jimmy young, were all literally in wheel chairs on there death beds when they fought cooney. thats how far gone they were.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:ron lyle, ken norton, jimmy young, were all literally in wheel chairs on there death beds when they fought cooney. thats how far gone they were.

Thats why I used the word washed up when describing the name opponents he fought because past their primes would have been an understatment of monumental proportions. Washed up might even be an understatment. I would agree with on their deathbed.

Cooney would get obliterated by Tyson if they ever fought in the 80s.

Lyle and Norton were done, but Jimmy Young was still decent, he went 12 with Page, and 10 with Tubbs and Tucker after the loss to Cooney.

Cooney beat Jimmy Young who was fat and had lost twice to Ocasio then Dokes. He whacked out 39 yr old Lyle who had just been KOd in 2 by journeyman Lynn Ball. He whacked out Norton who had just scraped home v journeyman Scott LeDoux. To summarise, Cooney never beat a fighter in his prime.

Tyson beat Blood Green, Berbick, Bonecrusher, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, Truth, and Ruddock twice. He also beat Holmes & Thomas who were arguably not at their best.

There is absolutely no comparison between these two fighters and their list of victims, title reigns, and overall credibility. Cooney cannot compete with Tyson.

generic screen name wrote:Cooney would get obliterated by Tyson if they ever fought in the 80s.

thats not the question, yes I think Tyson would kill Cooney but Cooney at the time was better than most of Tysons Pre jail opponents.

This is a very interesting question. Many on this forum, myself included, tend to denigrate Tyson’s opposition, but he actually beat a pretty fair list of HWs while unifying the title. Of those he beat prior to prison, I would rate these guys better than Looney… errr, I mean Cooney.

Tony Tucker. He was a tall strong fighter who had better overall skills than Cooney. While he couldn’t punch as hard as Cooney’s left hook, he had better than average power in both hands, an excellent jab, good conditioning and decent movement. I think Tucker is probably a bit under-rated today.

Tony Tubbs. I have to qualify this by saying an “in shape” Tubbs, but I think he was in good shape for Tyson fight. While I think Tubbs/Cooney is close, I rate Tubbs a better over all fighter, with excellent hand speed and movement.

Buster Douglas. I think that the Douglas that beat Tyson would have been able to out slick even the prime Cooney, although this another close call.

In general I think there were a few of Tyson’s opponents that were better, but I think Cooney would have made a tough opponent for any of them. Actually, I think a prime Cooney Michael Spinks fight would have been pretty interesting, although I think the prime Cooney would have been too much for Spinks.

sockdollanger wrote:

generic screen name wrote:Cooney would get obliterated by Tyson if they ever fought in the 80s.

thats not the question, yes I think Tyson would kill Cooney but Cooney at the time was better than most of Tysons Pre jail opponents.

Your giving Cooney too much credit for scraping bums and NEVER winning a world title. Tyson may have been in a weak era of heavyweights, but that doesn't mean that his opponents were weaker than a guy who fought bums and geezers before fighting a prime Holmes.

generic screen name wrote:

sockdollanger wrote:

generic screen name wrote:Cooney would get obliterated by Tyson if they ever fought in the 80s.

thats not the question, yes I think Tyson would kill Cooney but Cooney at the time was better than most of Tysons Pre jail opponents.

Your giving Cooney too much credit for scraping bums and NEVER winning a world title. Tyson may have been in a weak era of heavyweights, but that doesn't mean that his opponents were weaker than a guy who fought bums and geezers before fighting a prime Holmes.

Well its my opinion, I see where you are coming from and to me Tysons overall opponent pool pre-jail was much deeper than Cooney's. However I feel Cooney was underrated, especialy at the time of his fight with Holmes. how can you fault him for not having a title? Even Tyson wouldnt have been able to beat Holmes at that time. Its not like there were 33 different titles to pick up like there are now.

sockdollanger wrote:However I feel Cooney was underrated, especialy at the time of his fight with Holmes. how can you fault him for not having a title? Even Tyson wouldnt have been able to beat Holmes at that time. Its not like there were 33 different titles to pick up like there are now.

Well there was always at least one other HW “titleist” during Holmes reign and Cooney have pursued that title as well. I do have to agree though that I think Cooney was a very good heavyweight. It’s unfortunate that we’ll never know for sure since he was so protected by his management.

He did give a pretty good account of himself against Holmes. While I don’t think the fight was particularly close, he landed a lot more shots than I thought he’d be able to.

He was better than a good number of them, but certainly not all. Some have listed Biggs as a guy who would have beaten him, but frankly I think he would demolished Tyrell. Carl Williams shaky chin and weakness for getting hurt with the left would have been a huge problem against Cooney. And Tubbs was in no good form in 1988, so if that's the version we're going with, then I'll pick Cooney as well. I am one of the few who believe Cooney's prime actually predates the Holmes fight and being from about late 1979 to 1981. His meeting with Holmes was one of the more galant losing efforts in a title bout in the 1980's and certainly a good showing of his abilities. But the man just wasn't busy enough going into that match. Taking extended time off and then jumping right in against the best in the world is a recipe for defeat in the vast majority of cases. Sugar Ray Leonard was an exception.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:He was better than a good number of them, but certainly not all. Some have listed Biggs as a guy who would have beaten him, but frankly I think he would demolished Tyrell. Carl Williams shaky chin and weakness for getting hurt with the left would have been a huge problem against Cooney. And Tubbs was in no good form in 1988, so if that's the version we're going with, then I'll pick Cooney as well. I am one of the few who believe Cooney's prime actually predates the Holmes fight and being from about late 1979 to 1981. His meeting with Holmes was one of the more galant losing efforts in a title bout in the 1980's and certainly a good showing of his abilities. But the man just wasn't busy enough going into that match. Taking extended time off and then jumping right in against the best in the world is a recipe for defeat in the vast majority of cases. Sugar Ray Leonard was an exception.

Indeed.And if Sugar Ray had fought a Moore, or Curry, he might have had problems.

billythekid wrote:I would say Tyrell Biggs was better than Cooney but I get your point. Tyson cannot hang his hat on too many big wins and he was a fraud in many respects all along. Tyson was in the right place at the right time when it comes to the HW division. The HW division was not loaded with a lot of overwhelming talent then either and Tyson took advantage of it.

A fraud? If you plonked Tyson in any era he would've been successful. His speed, power and aggression would've been too much for the majority of established greats.