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What is courage?

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 12:35
by mulder
A great article from Boxing Monthly :TU:
If you haven't read this already check it out.

Vitali Klitschko saw both sides of the coin. Branded a coward for retiring from the Byrd fight with injury, he was heralded for his willingness to fight on despite serious facial wounds vs Lewis.

ANT EVANS investigates what constitutes bravery in the boxing ring



Boxing and combat sports are unique in modern sport in that they demand true bravery of the practitioner - Get Big Pic
Despite the modern media’s hilarious attempts to convince us of the heroism of tennis players who successfully defend set points and the courage of football teams who escape with a draw after falling two goals behind, boxing and combat sports are unique in modern sport in that they demand true bravery of the practitioner as he strives to overcome his own fear in addition to the obstacles provided by his opponent.

The squared circle requires what fight fan Ernest Hemingway — the best-selling author who would insist on sparring with often horrified dinner guests — called masculine courage.

Hemingway isn’t the only deep thinker to grow fascinated by men capable of overcoming great fear.

Since a psychologist named P. Lang published a paper in 1970 differentiating between fearlessness and courage/bravery (the former, he illustrated, is the absence of fear and the latter is the conquest of it) there has been a steady number of psychological studies into how and why human beings perceive fear and, more interestingly, how that fear can be overthrown.

As you would imagine, given the British (and American) Medical Association’s stated opinion of pugilism, none of these studies used boxers as subjects. But I was interested in investigating whether the type of guts exhibited by the champions of the ring was consistent with the type of hardiness psychologists had been finding under more controlled conditions.

Former British Army officer Dr Patrick Tissington of the Aston Business School, Birmingham, is penning his PhD on the combat effectiveness of military personnel and is a lecturer and advisor to both the UK Defence Academy and Fire Service College.

Moreover, he’s a boxing fan. So who better to draw parallels between the sport and the science?

“About 1% of the general population is genuinely fearless,” he begins. “They simply do not experience what we call fear and that can be measured physiologically in terms of their heart rates remaining constant despite exposure to situations which would frighten most other people. But that percentage will be higher amongst boxers. There would also be a higher percentage of boxers capable of controlling their fear to a greater extent because boxers learn to master their fear of the ring and getting hit, just as an army recruit is trained to be effective despite the stresses of the battlefield.”

When boxing fans think of fighters willing to endure what others would not, there is often an association with what is called, in boxing parlance, hunger. A young, unbeaten, “hungry” fighter will perhaps keep trying to win despite getting knocked down twice whereas maybe he would not if he were an ageing millionaire boxer.

However, Dr Tissington continues: “It is not about personality, economics or upbringing, but rather a belief in one’s own ability that is the crucial factor. If you look at the men who have won the Victoria Cross [Britain’s highest medal for gallantry, awarded only 1,355 times since its 1856 inception], you have introverts and egotists, working class and gentry — all kinds of personalities and backgrounds.

“The only thing these men have in common is unusually high self-belief and faith in their own ability to complete a task.”

Reigning WBC lightweight champion Diego Corrales has earned his reputation as one of the great warriors of the sport, having blazed his way back from what looked like certain defeat time and again in his career, most spectacularly in his first fight with Jose Luis Castillo. And he, too, credited a sense of unshakeable self-belief in engendering his remarkable bravery and commitment to victory.

“Knock me down, great, but I’m still gonna come at you just as hard — if not even harder — when I get back up. Cut, bloody, broken nose, broken leg, whatever. If I’m still in the fight I’ve got every chance of winning it and there’s nothing anyone can do about that.”

That sort of self-belief has to be entrenched very deeply into the psyche, though. The furnace heat of the boxing ring burns through bullshit and bravado very quickly. Fighters who have stepped though the ropes bloated with confidence have been reduced by their opponent’s efforts or, sometimes, their own fatigue.

“You do feel less sure of yourself as you tire,” Corrales admitted. “When you feel fresh and strong physically, it is easier to feel strong and confident mentally.”

And perhaps it is that retention of confidence despite continuous adversity that separates not only the courageous from the less courageous, but also good fighters from great ones.

Most of us can make a single brave decision to put ourselves in harm’s way as a one-off: thrill-seeking endeavours such as bungee jumping, for example. However, in bungee jumping you are committed for the duration — you can’t change your mind and quit once you’ve leapt off the platform. But the boxer is asked to renew that commitment with every passing second, after taking every punch.

Heavyweight Peter McNeeley’s farcical effort against Mike Tyson in 1995 is an instructive example of the difference between bungee-jumper bravery and the kind of robust, unflinching and continuous courage demanded by boxing.

At the opening bell, the Irish-American club fighter recklessly hurled himself into Iron Mike’s fists, taking few punches before manager Vinnie Vecchione, looking like he planned on doing so all along, climbed into the ring causing an instant disqualification.

McNeeley celebrated his 93-second loss with the euphoria of a teenager congratulating himself for riding his first rollercoaster. “I came to fight! I came to fight,” he bellowed into the Showtime TV cameras. Only, he didn’t. He’d managed to psyche himself up enough to go through with the bungee jump, yes, but he was overcome by fear of Tyson’s punches and took the quickest way out.

Legendary trainer Cus D’Amato once likened fear to a flame that had to be controlled lest it consumed a fighter. Years after his death, his philosophy based on gym observations is supported by the latest scientific studies.

Says Dr Tissington: “Fear is actually helpful in the boxing ring. Being afraid actually does enormously helpful things both psychologically and physiologically as long as it doesn’t overrun your thought processes. Fear sharpens our attention on what we need to be doing.

“Everyone knows about adrenaline and your body will shut down organs it doesn’t need to deal with the fearful situation, in this case the boxing match. For example, the stomach will stop digesting food, which is why we get butterflies when we are afraid.

“But, more than that, when in the ring, a fighter will experience what is called perceptual tunnelling. His sense of vision will alter so he isn’t distracted by the crowd. His hearing, which isn’t needed in the fight, will almost shut down, which is why sometimes fighters genuinely do not hear the bell.”

Studies in the 1980s involving Falklands War veterans suggested perceptual tunnelling could become so focused that individuals may even be unaware of great pain or injury until their specific task is accomplished.

For a boxing example of this phenomenon, look no further than Danny Williams’s one-armed win over Mark Potter. In an astonishing October 2000 British and Commonwealth heavyweight title bout, Williams prevailed via knockout despite fighting for four of the six rounds with a dislocated right shoulder. The Londoner slammed Potter to defeat with a series of left hooks — and then immediately collapsed in agony. It was an astonishing act of stoicism that should have made Williams a national hero four years before his gallant come-from-behind win over Tyson.

But, at the time, Williams thought the win was no big deal. He said: “Actually, I was worried it was a poor performance because I struggled before landing the KO punch. It was only when people were saying things like ‘that was amazing’ and ‘you’re so brave’ as I was getting helped back to the dressing room to go to hospital that I realised I must have done something a bit different.”

There’s a parallel here with Williams’s attitude and with examples from military service, says Dr Tissington.

“These men don’t believe they are especially courageous. And it’s not because they are trying to be modest; they just don’t understand what they have done is actually remarkable. They just say something like: “Well, what else could I have done?’”

But, even if Williams wasn’t feeling the full amount of pain from his injured shoulder, a great many fighters would have quit without any sense of shame. There is another dimension, beyond the physical, which allowed Williams to continue fighting.

Dr Tissington explains that is it common for the bravest of the brave to actually perceive dangerous situations differently.

“If your thought processes were telling you that, if you go over this hill, you are 90% likely to get shot or, in [Williams’s] case, you’ve got no chance of winning this fight with your arm like this, they just wouldn’t do it. It’s as simple as that.”

It has been said, half jokingly, that courageous or fearless people have a lack of imagination. And, in one sense, that is true. They don’t think ahead to what may happen after they complete whatever task is in front of them, be that task taking a beachhead in World War II or winning a British title fight with one arm.”

Interestingly, Williams concurs with this opinion.

“That’s it, absolutely,” he says. “All great fighters have to be a little stupid. Ali, Frazier, Marciano — all of them have that one bit of stupidity where they’d think they still have a chance where, really, all the facts [point to] them not having a chance. If Ali sat down and analysed George Foreman, he’d have probably thought: ‘He is bigger, stronger, younger etc, etc,’ and wouldn’t have gone in there with such a crazy plan [the famous rope-a-dope strategy]. Look at Roy Jones: he should retire but, even though no one else does, he still believes in himself 100%. That’s what a true fighter is.

“If you think about it, boxing is a crazy thing to do in the first place. So we don’t think about it. I just go on my instincts, my instinct to win. I’ve had some really hard fights, not just with Potter, but Tyson, Vitali Klitschko and Matt Skelton. But, even at the worst parts of any of those fights, never did it cross my mind to pull out. There’s no quit in Danny Williams.”

Williams, along with Corrales and others, has proven himself capable of repeated acts of huge valour and force of will. But other fighters are more contradictory.

In February 1995, a dazed-but-defiant Nigel Benn crawled back through the ropes to re-engage and ultimately defeat the fearsome Gerald McClellan. A little over a year later, he twice quit against the relatively light-punching Steve Collins.

And former, then future, WBC heavyweight champion Vitali Klitschko was absolutely savaged when he quit against Chris Byrd in April 2000. Klitschko had dominated the WBO title fight — it was mathematically impossible for him to lose on points — but he nevertheless withdrew with a shoulder injury in the ninth round.

Speaking from Germany, the retired champ told me: “I tore my ligaments in maybe the third, fourth round and the pain was very bad. It was a huge pain, something I’ve never felt before. Even though I tried not to use that arm and was winning the fight, the pain was getting more and more worse.”

Klitschko underwent surgery the next day and was told that he could have lost the full use of his arm. However, in America, the same sportswriters who deem men heroic who strap on 40lbs of protective gear merely to play American football characterised Klitschko’s actions as pure yellow-bellied cowardice.

Klitschko admits: “That was more painful than even the injury. I was called a coward but it wasn’t true. I always gave my very best in every fight.”

The label Quitschko stuck until he lost the gruelling 2003 fight against Lennox Lewis, where Klitschko absorbed some huge bombs and angrily refused to accept the doctor’s decision to halt the fight, even though he had horrific cuts to his eyes.

“People could see my injuries to my eyes because obviously the cuts were on the outside [of my body]. But people couldn’t see the damage to my shoulder in the Byrd fight, which was much worse than the injury to my eyes against Lewis. Against Lewis, I was ready to continue. It hurt but I could see. Against Byrd, it also hurt but I could not fight with one arm.”

That may have been very revealing. The cuts sustained against Lewis, no matter how horrifically raw they appeared, did not impair Klitschko’s ability to compete, whereas in the Byrd fight his ability to both attack and defend had been substantially compromised.

A PhD himself, Klitschko may have weighed up the situation in the manner a chess player or war general — in a careful, logical fashion before reaching the conclusion that he wasn’t going to risk losing the use of his arm in order to keep a WBO title.

Klitschko, be certain, has courage beyond normal men. But I believe men like Williams, Corrales, Ali (fighting with a broken jaw against Ken Norton), Archie Moore (demanding the referee give him his right to get knocked out by Marciano rather than suffer the indignity of getting stopped on his stool) and the others are brave beyond the telling of it.

As unfathomable as it may be for us on the safe side of the ropes, what these fighters seem to fear more than the possibility of serious injury is the prospect of losing, of being called something less than true fighters.

That’s the true magic of boxing. A magic no other sport can touch.

What is equally fascinating and frustrating is that even these men themselves can’t explain where this magic comes from.

Someone should do a study........
Good ain't it :box: Thanks for lookin'

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:13
by silkov
Courage for me is be willing to watch Joe Calzaghes up coming fight or paying to watch Hattons next fight!... never have so few ripped off the money of so many and given in return so little over such a long period of time.... :box: :box: :box:

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 18:09
by jamesmcdonnell
there was a very interesting programme on TV a while back this year on this subject, but regarding warfare.

There was a new theory based on psychiatry. A historian had put forward the theory that during warfare there are only a small proportion of people who do any fighting. I think the figure was around 25%. The other 75% are just firing guns in the air, throwing their spears randomly, running around shouting or hiding in their trench. The instinct to retreat from danger and the inbuilt mechanism which deters us from killing one another is very strong.

Of that 25% around 1% are what in wartime we call heroes. According to this guy, these people are basically having psychotic episodes, where they become for the duration of their corageous acts someone else. They are people with an inbuilt mental instability brought about by the duress of the situation. He recounted instiances of people who in the heat of battle had entered a dug in enemy position and bayonetted 30 people to death in a space of minutes.

It was a very interesting show, wish I could remember what it was called. What it pointed out that what is often called courage under certain circumstances could be regarded as foolhardiness or outright madness in others. I guess the difference between the coward and the hero is the flagrant disregard for the odds, and the difference between the hero and the fool is whether they survive or not. Storming an enemy pillbox and getting machine gunned in half looks like downrright stupidity, whereas storming an enemy pillbox getting in there and stabbing everyone to death with your rusty bayonnet is another thing altogether. One is dead, the other is a feted hero.

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 06:31
by harrygreb
and its all there inside the head of each and every one of us

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 08:20
by Scrap
I dont agree with you there. In my expereince its the qiute rational thinkers who show most bottle, pride if you like when the going gets tougth. Boxing is preplanned over a period of weeks, wars or situations of war are different in context.

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 08:34
by Lenny
Boxing is preplanned to a point. I'm sure people don't plan to take two heavy knockdowns like Corrales did against Castillo and get up and go all guns blazing to stop his opponent. Surely a more rational thinker would have thought "fu*k this" and got the hell out of there (Freitas?)

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 08:47
by jamesmcdonnell
Scrap wrote:I dont agree with you there. In my expereince its the qiute rational thinkers who show most bottle, pride if you like when the going gets tougth. Boxing is preplanned over a period of weeks, wars or situations of war are different in context.
Wars and fights are both planned, soliders are given their battle tactics, positions and commands, much like a fighter enters each round with instructions from his corner, and also a pre fight tactical plan which has to be adapted. both the solider and the fighter deal with the changing demands of the heat of battle, and this is when the true character of the fighting man comes out.

Ray Leonard, for all his silky skills and tacitcal nous, prevailed over Thomas Hearns by beating the crap out of him because he was told by his commanding officer (in this case Angelo Dundee) that he was going to lose his personal war. Leonard threw out the pre fight tactics which he and his trainers had thought were the correct ones, went out there and jumped all over hearns, stopping him in the 13th round.

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 09:07
by silkov
The most courageous fighters are usually those with the strongest and most stable mind... compare Ali and Tyson... Ali is one of the bravest fighters I've seen in the ring while Tyson was exposed as a front running bully... Tysons mental instability was the crucial flaw that stopped him becoming an all time great... Joe Frazier and Roicky Marcinao were two of the bravest and most ferocious fighters ever seen in the ring yet outside were both mild-mannered and surprisingly sane...

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 10:33
by jamesmcdonnell
silkov wrote:The most courageous fighters are usually those with the strongest and most stable mind... compare Ali and Tyson... Ali is one of the bravest fighters I've seen in the ring while Tyson was exposed as a front running bully... Tysons mental instability was the crucial flaw that stopped him becoming an all time great... Joe Frazier and Roicky Marcinao were two of the bravest and most ferocious fighters ever seen in the ring yet outside were both mild-mannered and surprisingly sane...
I wouldn't call Frazier mild mannered and sane. The guy is still filled with hatred and bitterness towards Ali over comments made 30 or more years ago, even his own friends have begged him to reconcile with Ali to no avail. That shows a single mindedness that was characterised by his fighting style, the unwillingness to flinch or deviate from a set path.

Tyson did have a mental flaw, but he wasn't an out and out coward. In his fights with Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis he took an almighty beating and went out on his shield. He didn't just quit, despite the fact that in the last two fights he'd all but given up trying to win. His was a fear of failure rather than fear of being beaten up. The pre douglas Tyson would have tried a lot harder to win in the Holyfield and Lewis fights.

As for Marciano, he typifies the 'walk soft but carry a big stick' mentality of so many hard men. When you have such mental strength, you don't need to shoot of your mouth. However, in the ring his willingness to absorb punishment shows that he wasn't a 'normal' man, as most fighters let alone average bods wouldn't warrent taking that sort of abuse.

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 10:38
by silkov
Terence wrote:
Scrap wrote:I dont agree with you there. In my expereince its the qiute rational thinkers who show most bottle, pride if you like when the going gets tougth. Boxing is preplanned over a period of weeks, wars or situations of war are different in context.
Fair enough. I'm a rational quite calculating person but if I hit someone with my best shots and they look like they loved it (which has happened) it takes something away from my courage reserves as I know I probably couldn't hold those shots (I can on my chin not on my heart which is why I'm not a boxer by trade, I just like to box when possible) the way they could. The guys in WWI who had time to think ended up being shot for not wanting to fight. It is the same as going on a scary ride, the longer you have to mull it over the more your arse goes.

Maybe you mean calculating types make the best killers? Hearns was certainly the best finisher I've seen, as was Louis, Tyson was clinical also but his heart? Not in the fights.
I think the greatest fighters are the ones who are able to control themselves most in the ring and the situations that they find themselves in during fights... that is why fighters of unstable minds inevitably come apart when faced with excessive danger in the ring... the mind is the boxers most important attribute... it was Ali's strength of mind and character rather than just his physical attributes which took him to many of his victories in the 70s...
Cus D'amato believed that boxers allow themselves to be knockedout in fights... and that if a fighter has enough strength of will and confidence in himself he will never get knocked out no matter what punches he takes...

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 10:45
by jamesmcdonnell
Yes, Marvin Hagler also said that being hurt or stunned was a matter of mentality, he simply refused to be hurt and treated pain as if it was something which didn't exist. Hearns briefly stunned Hagler in their fight in the 1st, but after that Hagler seemed to become acclimated to the pain and they just bounced of his big bald head like a peashooter off of an elephants backside after that.

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 10:55
by silkov
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, Marvin Hagler also said that being hurt or stunned was a matter of mentality, he simply refused to be hurt and treated pain as if it was something which didn't exist. Hearns briefly stunned Hagler in their fight in the 1st, but after that Hagler seemed to become acclimated to the pain and they just bounced of his big bald head like a peashooter off of an elephants backside after that.
Ali is another great example of someone who refused to be knocked out... the punches he took later in his career would have koed most other fighters but Ali took them all without even going down... I think this is due to his pride, courage and strength of will rather than having been born with a tougher chin/jaw than other fighters...

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 10:57
by silkov
Interesting that Evander Holifields wife/ex-wife was a pain management therapist....

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 11:20
by jamesmcdonnell
Hagler was both an ice cold boxing master and a single minded automoton bent on the destruction of his opponent. In the intense cauldron of his battle with Hearns, he took everything Hearns could throw, then began dissecting Tommy clinically, taking him apart piece by piece, once he had him hurt, it was watching a lion take down a gazelle, ruthless, relentless and brutally final, once he got his paws on Tommy, there was no escape, the ring shrunk to the size of a postage stamp and you knew that he was doomed. That's the mark of a great finisher, no hesitation no reflection, just DESTROY DESTROY DESTROY!

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 11:21
by silkov
Terence wrote:
silkov wrote:Interesting that Evander Holifields wife/ex-wife was a pain management therapist....
She'll need it to get to the end of one his sentences, unless he sees sense.

You can have control and aggression. A cold-fish fighter will wilt at some point. I'm not saying go kill-crazy as a soldier must but you can be too calculating. It is a cliche but at some point you have to let your hands go and some fighters spend too long thinking about what they are about of do and the window closes. I like to think of it as deliberative reflexivity (that sounds ace). Hagler had the brains but he also had the fire and inclination to just go for it, many of us can't mix them. That is why we talk about fighters as opposed to fighting.
I agree, the best fighters are able to tap into their aggressive side or animal instinct which we all have to a certain extent... this balanced with logic and knowledge of technique is what makes a real fighter... some fighters think too much and this is a detriment to them as fighters... Audely Harrison and Danny Williams are two great home grown examples of this I fear...

Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 11:26
by lvlarc
jamesmcdonnell wrote: and they just bounced of his big bald head like a peashooter off of an elephants backside after that.
Nice line :TU:

To me fighters like Morales, Corrales, Gatti etc are the best examples of courage. They've been in many wars and come back stronger, or is that stupidity? Of course all fighters that step in the ring show courage, it's hard to judge the slick boxers like PBF level of courage since they rarely get into a "fight" as they don't need to.

Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 06:26
by THEBUTCH
Graham Earl typified what I class as courage with his superb performance against Romanov earlier this year. :box:

Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 17:41
by harrygreb
cus d'amato's theory has something but i dont think lennox lewis could have done anything about his 2 knockdowns and defeats

Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 18:40
by jamesmcdonnell
Yeah his theory is obviously an oversimplification. If you get hit with a shot you never see coming, and get spanked spark out there's bugger all any amount of mental strength can do for you. I'd like to have seen Takaloo use mental fortitude to get up from that shot that Alexander sparked him with.

Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 18:44
by Scrap
One of the most placid people Ive met in my life, and Id known him a year and he was a joy to know. One day a stranger asked me, if I felt pride being with the man, I said not really he was just a great guy. When he told me he had the V C and Bar I was gobsmacked. He never spoke about it.

Posted: 25 Aug 2006, 13:03
by harrygreb
ok, there has been alot of wise talk on here about the amount of psychology it takes for a soldier or military person to take that big step and actually gun down an enemy - we are, someone said, not easily predisposed to kill, to paraphrase an earlier poster. so, then, how is it so easy for a teenager to pull the trigger on a guy outside a parade of shops.
i refer, of course, to the sickening incident about a half mile from where i sit in canning town, east london. and taking the teen's psychology into consideration what do we do with him?

Posted: 26 Aug 2006, 07:50
by Scrap
H arry you tell us, I remember in the 60s Mary Whitehouse and Malcom Muggarridge telling everybody how it should be. Everybody including me thought silly pudenda they havent got a clue. With hindsight they had.

Posted: 26 Aug 2006, 10:47
by harrygreb
i just heard on the radio a political question prog, "what are we to do about the behaviour of young people today?" well, from a couple of people - on the left, it has to be said - the answer was to give them more respect and not to belitle their achievements. in my view, and i used to have a lot of sympathy with that idea, the young are not giving enough respect to their elders. this comes from not knowing how to discipline them when they are children. i know how to do it and i have never laid a finger on any of mine yet still i get the respect that i deserve and that they understand. the problem is we want the very young to behave like adults too fast. childhood should be a long long learning process, its over too quick and thats often the fault of the parents (and the society we live in)
as for the boy who shot dead the young canning town father? i'd gladly put him away until his childhood is a long distant and very unpleasant memory.