BoxRec

I've got something for many of us to ponder. How does James Toney's HW record effect his legacy at MW? Could Hagler or Monzon or Jones have done as well? Does it even matter?

I have his MW years increasing in value as his HW career plays out. He has arguably beaten every HW opponent he has ever fought though his record has Splits, Draws and No Decisions. I mean the man is a middleweight who eats too much, has no discipline when it comes to nutrition and stays competitive with the best Heavies these days......Is he like Duran who had respectable years in the MW though he was really a lightweight? Did Duran's MW period have us thinking better of his lightweight career?

Or do the seperate weight classes require us to ignore the history and assess them seperately? Not sure I've developed my opinion on this, but I think I tend to blur the weight divisions somewhat when I look at someones whole body of work.

You're assessment of Toney was pretty acurate, so that tells you something about todays heaveyweight division, but many others have already pointed out the paucity of talent in this division. But anyway I make the point again to mull over the possibility that Toney's success at heavyweight has more to do with lack of talent in the division rather than his own skill. This is in no way a knock against Toney. Also I think throughout history the heavyweights have not been the best divsion, just the most popular.

It shouldn't affect your perception of him as a middleweight. He's beating fat, unskilled HWs. They are bigger and stronger than him but nothing else.

If Toney had somehow stayed at 168 he would have some VERY tough fights and would be struggling more-Hopkins, Calzaghe, Wright, Taylor etc.

Vs overweight druids like Peter and Ruiz he can stay in the center of the ring and do next to nothing for 2 minutes of a round and then win a round on a few counters as his opponents don't know what to do . . .

Different story in the lower weights

It has absolutely nothing to do with how he was as a middleweight.

He had a very good, but not great run at middle that was riddled with inconsistency.

Could a middleweight step up right now and beat him? Or does his weight make it unfair for them? We use weight divisions to protect fighters from unfair scenarios. Toney's weight does not seem to be anything that should give him an advantage.

Would it only be fair if we made Jermain Taylor wear 75 pounds of sand and then fight Toney?

I'm having some fun with this, but it has me thinking and laughing at the same time. I've said it before these are strange times we live in. This bloated MW has me questioning a lot about the sport. It also makes it more reasonable to assume that the old school fighters would cut through the new guys like a knife throught butter. But then some of us keep bringing up the fact that the new guys are bigger and stronger and likely to do well against the old school. The whole thing is counter-intuitive.

At times like these one most turn to quiet moments in retrospection with the sacred golden beverage, as we pursuit the forgotten wisdom of the sages.

Its a good question.
I dont think fighting at heavy and what he has done there really has a whole lot of impact on his middleweight legacy.
It would be one thing if Toney went up and fought the big guys ala Mickey Walker who stayed somewhat within the middleweight range and fought heavies.
Hes a heavyweight now .

Decagon wrote:At 160, 168 and 175, he had nowhere near the consistency he's had at 190 and above. Because he's doing better now that he isn't dying to lose weight before every fight shows me that he wasn't that great of a middleweight. Right now, he barely makes by top 20, and I feel bad about ranking him ahead of Holman Williams.

Wins vs Sosa, Nunn, Johnson, Barkely, and McCallum is a pretty damn good resume

dempseyfire wrote:

Decagon wrote:At 160, 168 and 175, he had nowhere near the consistency he's had at 190 and above. Because he's doing better now that he isn't dying to lose weight before every fight shows me that he wasn't that great of a middleweight. Right now, he barely makes by top 20, and I feel bad about ranking him ahead of Holman Williams.

Wins vs Sosa, Nunn, Johnson, Barkely, and McCallum is a pretty damn good resume

I agree.

I often ponder this point. If Toney can take the heavy shots at HW then surely that does inform us of his chin. If he can take a HW's power shots then surely he can take a MWs?

It does seem to me that you can't totally divorce one from the other.

Ezzard wrote:I often ponder this point. If Toney can take the heavy shots at HW then surely that does inform us of his chin. If he can take a HW's power shots then surely he can take a MWs?

It does seem to me that you can't totally divorce one from the other.

It doesn't work that way. A 250 lb strong man can hurt you and def. has more sheer "force" on their punches than a 165 lb man, but the 165 lb man may be able to hurt you more if he catches you with a quick, jolting torqued punch that you don't see coming. It's the punches you don't see that have the most effect. That's why Foreman usually got TKOs off of guys who kept getting up to get clobbered to the canvas again. The smaller Louis and Tyson, with their quick, short compact punches, had the highlight reel knockouts.

Peter couldn't put Toney on the deck with his clubbing power shots but Reggie Johnson put Toney right on his ass with a beautifully timed, straight left to the kisser.

I don't know..Jones looked better in his one fight at heavyweight htan Toney has looked in all of his bouts at heavyweight! I think he would be so much more effective if he would just come into a heavyweight bouts at around 215, or maybe 220 at the most!

Decagon wrote:But then you have his fights with Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi and Roy Jones, where he showed up completely out of shape.

he wasn't out of shape for Jones. He was outclassed.

Decagon wrote:But then you have his fights with Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi and Roy Jones, where he showed up completely out of shape.

Griffin, Thadzi and Jones fights weren't at MW and really shouldn't affect his legacy at that weight. His MW resume was quite good and he was, technically, undefeated at that weight. I think even JT now admits that the Tiberi fight was a bad decision.

JT has hardly been a media concious class jumper like PBF, and I think his ability to perform at ever increasing(!!) weights is a positive for his legacy at any weight, although ultimately the abilities that he displayed at MW should be how we judge his MW career.

barry wrote:I don't know..Jones looked better in his one fight at heavyweight htan Toney has looked in all of his bouts at heavyweight! I think he would be so much more effective if he would just come into a heavyweight bouts at around 215, or maybe 220 at the most!

Or maybe 205. After all, does 30 lbs of fat really help a fighter? If it does, then the current crop of HWs must be the best in history.

People can slag off Toney all they like, but two things you cannot take from him were his granite chin and excellent skills, at his peak of course. I think James' peak weight was 168. At his best he was a damn tough prospect for any fighter thru history. Aint nobody gonna KO him or even beat him bad.

blueberrymuffin wrote:

Decagon wrote:But then you have his fights with Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi and Roy Jones, where he showed up completely out of shape.

he wasn't out of shape for Jones. He was outclassed.

I have heard that he was so dehydrated to make weight he spent the night on a drip.
Also, hbo weight him the day of the fight and he was 184 lbs, he was badly out of shape. I believe he also fell out with his management for making the fight without leaving him time to prepare properly.

mrbassie wrote:

blueberrymuffin wrote:

Decagon wrote:But then you have his fights with Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi and Roy Jones, where he showed up completely out of shape.

he wasn't out of shape for Jones. He was outclassed.

I have heard that he was so dehydrated to make weight he spent the night on a drip.
Also, hbo weight him the day of the fight and he was 184 lbs, he was badly out of shape. I believe he also fell out with his management for making the fight without leaving him time to prepare properly.

Jones won at a canter but Toney was obviously out of shape and a complete idiot for fighting Jones at anything but peak levels of fitness and preparation.

mrbassie wrote:

blueberrymuffin wrote:

Decagon wrote:But then you have his fights with Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi and Roy Jones, where he showed up completely out of shape.

he wasn't out of shape for Jones. He was outclassed.

I have heard that he was so dehydrated to make weight he spent the night on a drip.
Also, hbo weight him the day of the fight and he was 184 lbs, he was badly out of shape. I believe he also fell out with his management for making the fight without leaving him time to prepare properly.

nothing could have saved him from that beating.. he was outclassed that badly!!! Also Nun outclassed him but got cought.

cultus wrote:

mrbassie wrote:

blueberrymuffin wrote:
he wasn't out of shape for Jones. He was outclassed.

I have heard that he was so dehydrated to make weight he spent the night on a drip.
Also, hbo weight him the day of the fight and he was 184 lbs, he was badly out of shape. I believe he also fell out with his management for making the fight without leaving him time to prepare properly.

nothing could have saved him from that beating.. he was outclassed that badly!!! Also Nun outclassed him but got cought.

Cultus

Haven't seen you here for a while, hope you're well.

I watched the Toney-Nunn last week and I think 2 things happened. Toney is getting to him over the course of a few rounds. He's taking a lot back but he's getting closer and inflicting some real damage on Nunn. Also, Toney's taunts seemed to make Nunn want to be more agressive. Nunn was teeing off more than usual. He stood his ground and got run over.

Ezzard wrote:

cultus wrote:

mrbassie wrote: I have heard that he was so dehydrated to make weight he spent the night on a drip.
Also, hbo weight him the day of the fight and he was 184 lbs, he was badly out of shape. I believe he also fell out with his management for making the fight without leaving him time to prepare properly.

nothing could have saved him from that beating.. he was outclassed that badly!!! Also Nun outclassed him but got cought.

Cultus

Haven't seen you here for a while, hope you're well.

I watched the Toney-Nunn last week and I think 2 things happened. Toney is getting to him over the course of a few rounds. He's taking a lot back but he's getting closer and inflicting some real damage on Nunn. Also, Toney's taunts seemed to make Nunn want to be more agressive. Nunn was teeing off more than usual. He stood his ground and got run over.

thanks for careing, im doin great. Working alot with the band at the moment but still reading every day

Toney was very effective from 9-10 and even in the eight.. But at the same time Nunn got too Brave and just was unbeleavable sloppy in the 11-th leaning in like an amateur in that KO situation.

I don't see toney being as good as many of you here. I also dislike him .. but he wasn't as good as he seems right now. Dont forget he was almost lost in the shadow after loosing to Roy and Montell(twice). after that he just handpicked his opponents for a while and pulked up fast to get the fvck away from the great fighters at the lower levels.