Would this have been the Ike or the Vitali Era?

[BoxBuzz]

Ok....It's a world where Ike behaves and Vitali doesn't suffer trauma.....Can your creative mind take you there? Oh and lets say sanity ruled in the Heavyweight division and there was only one "Champion and he just retired. Who would have, could have, should have owned this "lost" era? I suggest it may well be between these two guys in a "post Lennox" world.

What say you?


Two "early bailers" who will not be back to claim glory.....It's a story of "what ifs".....

[barry]

Ibeabuchi certainly had all the tools and certainly had the toughness which would carry him past most heavyweight of the era...I certainly don't think either of the Klitschko's would have ever posed a threat to him...if only he had a solid mental state!

[silkov]

Ike was too mad and Vitali too injury prone... if you put them together, Ikes physical toughness with Vitali's mental toughness then you'd get probably a great fighter.... people may poo poo the idea of Vitali being mentally tough but he certainly was, to come from where he started and get where he did... Ike like Tyson was a mental weed, unable to control himself and screwing everything up just when he was about to hit the heights...

[barry]

Vitali didn't have any mental toughness...he had some toughness, but it wasn't much...certainly not the kind of toughness that most other fighters have! A fighter with great mental toughness does not quit!


>>>to come from where he started and get where he did<<<

To come from where he started and get where he did...he started out on the topic...he was highly touted and great things were expected from him yet he choked and he ended up being viewed worse at the end of his career as opposed to all the praise that he was given in the beginning!

Though unlike Tyson, Ibeabuchi was able to hold it together very well in the ring...it was out of the ring that he went stupid!

[thunderfromdownunder]

it is a "lost" era, back in the late 90's the future of the heavies must of looked really bright, with up and comers like Ike, Wlad and Vitali, as well as people like dominick guinn and brock.
but something went wrong....they either broke down mentally or physsically or they just refuse to fight each other

[BoxBuzz]

I'm with you on being critical of Vitali quitting, but not in regards to the Byrd fight. Where I think he showed his arse was when he left the game. If he ever wanted a legacy it became hopeless when he wouldn't do the work to get back into the game for real.

As far as the injury...you might as well live to fight another day. You should never never never give up...but that rule is for the long haul in my estimation. As long as you stay in the game all you suffer are setbacks. But when you leave......it's asta la vista.

I don't consider Tszyu or Frazier quitters though they bailed on tough fights. They both stayed in the game long enough to be determined to be great. But you know it is pretty hard to get over a "no mas" moment. Ask one of the greatest fighters the world has ever known...Roberto Duran.

Hey....I'm not sayin Vitali and Robert got much in common...... I always thought it would be Vitali who would hang tough. I'm surprised his brother is the one still fighting.

[BoxBuzz]

it is a "lost" era, back in the late 90's the future of the heavies must of looked really bright, with up and comers like Ike, Wlad and Vitali, as well as people like dominick guinn and brock.
but something went wrong....they either broke down mentally or physsically or they just refuse to fight each other

Hey thunder.....what were you thinking? You forgot about the greatest "what iffer" of all time.... Oddlee Harrison.

[BoxBuzz]

I don't consider Tszyu or Frazier quitters though they bailed on tough fights. They both stayed in the game long enough to be determined to be great. But you know it is pretty hard to get over a "no mas" moment. Ask one of the greatest fighters the world has ever known...Roberto Duran.

There's a difference. Tszyu was in 17 title fights. Duran was in 22. And, um. Frazier never actually quit, you know. Sure, Vitali has some of the failings of Roberto Duran, but he had 1/10,000 the talent and will to succeed. Could you imagine Vitali Klitschko having 120 professional fights? And against the quality Duran faced?

Decagon, your a better historian than that....the only difference between Tszyu and Frazier was that Tszyu had the class to agree with his cornerman in public and disagree in private. Same kudos to both.

[silkov]

I'm with you on being critical of Vitali quitting, but not in regards to the Byrd fight. Where I think he showed his arse was when he left the game. If he ever wanted a legacy it became hopeless when he wouldn't do the work to get back into the game for real.

As far as the injury...you might as well live to fight another day. You should never never never give up...but that rule is for the long haul in my estimation. As long as you stay in the game all you suffer are setbacks. But when you leave......it's asta la vista.

I don't consider Tszyu or Frazier quitters though they bailed on tough fights. They both stayed in the game long enough to be determined to be great. But you know it is pretty hard to get over a "no mas" moment. Ask one of the greatest fighters the world has ever known...Roberto Duran.

Hey....I'm not sayin Vitali and Robert got much in common...... I always thought it would be Vitali who would hang tough. I'm surprised his brother is the one still fighting.

But surely if Vitali has a chronic injury how can he be criticised for retiring when he did?. We're always knocking fighters for fighting on too long, I would never criticise a fighter for retiring when he wants, especially if he is as inmjury prone as Vitali. Does anyone criticise Marciano for retiring when he did?... they criticise Tunney funnily enough... actually I can see some parrallels between Tunney and Vitali and the way they are percieved by many boxing people... perhaps a case of being too clever for their own good?...

[The Great John L]

Does anyone criticise Marciano for retiring when he did?... they criticise Tunney funnily enough... actually I can see some parrallels between Tunney and Vitali and the way they are percieved by many boxing people... perhaps a case of being too clever for their own good?...

Let’s see… comparing Vitali to Marciano and Tunney?? Do I even have to say anything?

[silkov]

Does anyone criticise Marciano for retiring when he did?... they criticise Tunney funnily enough... actually I can see some parrallels between Tunney and Vitali and the way they are percieved by many boxing people... perhaps a case of being too clever for their own good?...

Let’s see… comparing Vitali to Marciano and Tunney?? Do I even have to say anything?

I'm not comparing them as fighters but comparing how they all retired while still champion... dont you bother reading my posts properly???.... Tunney and Vitali get a lot of flak for retiring when they did while Rocky doesnt!... why?... and there are a lot of simularities between Vitali and Tunney as people... both very clever and scientific in how they approached boxing and both were looked on with suspicion by a certain number of boxing people...

[silkov]

It was Big Aud's Era to take...


...and he can still do it! C'mon Big Aud'! Prove the naysayers wrong!

Sorry Terry, but I think you're flogging a dead horse there... Audelys chance, if he really ever had any, has gone east... or rather Eastern Europe!...

[The Great John L]

I'm not comparing them as fighters but comparing how they all retired while still champion... dont you bother reading my posts properly???.... Tunney and Vitali get a lot of flak for retiring when they did while Rocky doesnt!... why?... and there are a lot of simularities between Vitali and Tunney as people... both very clever and scientific in how they approached boxing and both were looked on with suspicion by a certain number of boxing people...

O course I read your posts, painful as that may be, and understood that you weren’t comparing them as fighters. The fact that I have to explain to you why comparing their careers and retirementsm, indicates your limited understanding of boxing history.

Vitali was never a champion. He was an alphabet “titleholder”. Tunney and Marciano are all time greats who fought and beat many top world class fighters. Their careers and their retirements have absolutely NO similarity to Vitali, who was never a champ and never beat a single top world class fighter. 50 years from now people will still be discussing Marciano and Tunney while few, if any, will even remember Vitali.

It’s comments like this that drive real boxing fans nuts. Vitali was a good fighter who accomplished very little during his career. Most were not critical of his retirement, but were simply glad to see him go, since he seemed to contribute very little to the sport. It matters to history to discuss Tunney and Marciano’s retirements, while Vitali is totally irrelevant to the history of boxing.

[pound per pound]

Vitali didn't have any mental toughness...he had some toughness, but it wasn't much...certainly not the kind of toughness that most other fighters have! A fighter with great mental toughness does not quit!

Barry,

Did Vitali cost you money as a gambler? Did he rob your house? Did he romantically seduce your significant other? I'll never understand why some people hate Vitali as if he was the Anti Christ in the flesh.

I have a question for Barry. What do Roberto Duran, Willie Pep, Sam Langford, Sonny Liston, Marcel Cerdan, Mike Tyson, Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Bob Foster, Henry Armstrong, Ezzard Charles, Alexis Arguello, Sugar Ray Robinson, and Kostz Tszyu have in common?

Does thou care to venture a guess? Yes, they were all pound per pound fighters. I agree. They also quit in fights just like Vitlai did. Most of them did not have an injury as severe either.

I believe that any man who steps inside the ropes is a warrior. Some warriors quit due to injury. Others have their corners quit for them to save face. Very few go down face first for the count. Boxing is a tough combat sport. I feel it is in the poorest of tastes to put down boxers who risk their lives every time they step foot into the ring. I ask that you stop doing this on a weekly basis, or if you must at the very treat everyone else the same.

[Collins2000]

Vitali didn't have any mental toughness...he had some toughness, but it wasn't much...certainly not the kind of toughness that most other fighters have! A fighter with great mental toughness does not quit!

Barry,

Did Vitali cost you money as a gambler? Did he rob your house? Did he romantically seduce your significant other? I'll never understand why some people hate Vitali as if he was the Anti Christ in the flesh.

I have a question for Barry. What do Roberto Duran, Willie Pep, Sam Langford, Sonny Liston, Marcel Cerdan, Mike Tyson, Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Bob Foster, Henry Armstrong, Ezzard Charles, Alexis Arguello, Sugar Ray Robinson, and Kostz Tszyu have in common?

Does thou care to venture a guess? Yes, they were all pound per pound fighters. I agree. They also quit in fights just like Vitlai did. Most of them did not have an injury as severe either.

I believe that any man who steps inside the ropes is a warrior. Some warriors quit due to injury. Others have their corners quit for them to save face. Very few go down face first for the count. Boxing is a tough combat sport. I feel it is in the poorest of tastes to put down boxers who risk their lives every time they step foot into the ring. I ask that you stop doing this on a weekly basis, or if you must at the very treat everyone else the same.

What Vitali doesn't have in common with that list of greats is, well, greatness. In any way, shape or form.

If Vitali fans would just stick to saying he was a good heavyweight who for a short period when there was no outstanding fighters in their prime competing at that weight was considered to be amongst the top 3 in the dividion, there would be no real disagreement.

As an aside, if you ever see "horizontal" Jeff Pegues in 'action' you might question your statement that all boxers are warriors. That guy is simply a record padder who the moment he catches any heat heads for the floor and stays there.

[barry]

>>>It’s comments like this that drive real boxing fans nuts. <<<

Amen to that!!!

[pound per pound]

Vitali didn't have any mental toughness...he had some toughness, but it wasn't much...certainly not the kind of toughness that most other fighters have! A fighter with great mental toughness does not quit!

Barry,

Did Vitali cost you money as a gambler? Did he rob your house? Did he romantically seduce your significant other? I'll never understand why some people hate Vitali as if he was the Anti Christ in the flesh.

I have a question for Barry. What do Roberto Duran, Willie Pep, Sam Langford, Sonny Liston, Marcel Cerdan, Mike Tyson, Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Bob Foster, Henry Armstrong, Ezzard Charles, Alexis Arguello, Sugar Ray Robinson, and Kostz Tszyu have in common?

Does thou care to venture a guess? Yes, they were all pound per pound fighters. I agree. They also quit in fights just like Vitlai did. Most of them did not have an injury as severe either.

I believe that any man who steps inside the ropes is a warrior. Some warriors quit due to injury. Others have their corners quit for them to save face. Very few go down face first for the count. Boxing is a tough combat sport. I feel it is in the poorest of tastes to put down boxers who risk their lives every time they step foot into the ring. I ask that you stop doing this on a weekly basis, or if you must at the very treat everyone else the same.

What Vitali doesn't have in common with that list of greats is, well, greatness. In any way, shape or form.

If Vitali fans would just stick to saying he was a good heavyweight who for a short period when there was no outstanding fighters in their prime competing at that weight was considered to be amongst the top 3 in the dividion, there would be no real disagreement.

As an aside, if you ever see "horizontal" Jeff Pegues in 'action' you might question your statement that all boxers are warriors. That guy is simply a record padder who the moment he catches any heat heads for the floor and stays there.

My comment was directed towards Barry.

I think most agree Vitali was the best around for a short period of time. No one here to my recollection has said that Vitali was as good as Louis or Ali. If someone said that they are off their rocker. Besides greatness is subjective. I read somewhere in the cyber boxing zone that Vitlai has the all time knock out percentage in the history of gloved boxing, and is the only of the few champions never to be floored by a punch in the history of gloved boxing.

Yet here at box rec I have seen the same post at least 20 times since I been a member here. Ad nausea. What's the point? Quitting is part of boxing. It happens. As I pointed out most fans would be shocked to know who quit.

Should we had weekly threads on other fighters quitting because it simply wasn’t their night? I think not. Yet we do at box rec.

[barry]

No most did not quit like Vitali...but the big difference between those and Vitali...those you mentioned had enough accomplishments to off-set a quit-job and of those you mentioned I don't know any, other than Duran who quit in they're prime...nost were old men who had been around the game for many years and had accomplished pretty much what they wanted. There's a big difference between Vitali and any of the fighters you mentioned and to even try to place Vitali' name with there's is a lot of what others and myself have problems with...as I have said 100s of times Vitali was a good heavyweight who showed very little heart in the ring...those other fighters you mentioned have examples, several, of near life and death struggles to go along with whenever they quit, but I have a question for you...

How about giving us the examples that you are talking about where the fighters you mention quit...it's a little different to claim someone quit with putting for the evidence...such as Vitali-Byrd!

[silkov]

Barry,

Did Vitali cost you money as a gambler? Did he rob your house? Did he romantically seduce your significant other? I'll never understand why some people hate Vitali as if he was the Anti Christ in the flesh.

I have a question for Barry. What do Roberto Duran, Willie Pep, Sam Langford, Sonny Liston, Marcel Cerdan, Mike Tyson, Jack Johnson, Joe Gans, Bob Foster, Henry Armstrong, Ezzard Charles, Alexis Arguello, Sugar Ray Robinson, and Kostz Tszyu have in common?

Does thou care to venture a guess? Yes, they were all pound per pound fighters. I agree. They also quit in fights just like Vitlai did. Most of them did not have an injury as severe either.

I believe that any man who steps inside the ropes is a warrior. Some warriors quit due to injury. Others have their corners quit for them to save face. Very few go down face first for the count. Boxing is a tough combat sport. I feel it is in the poorest of tastes to put down boxers who risk their lives every time they step foot into the ring. I ask that you stop doing this on a weekly basis, or if you must at the very treat everyone else the same.

What Vitali doesn't have in common with that list of greats is, well, greatness. In any way, shape or form.

If Vitali fans would just stick to saying he was a good heavyweight who for a short period when there was no outstanding fighters in their prime competing at that weight was considered to be amongst the top 3 in the dividion, there would be no real disagreement.

As an aside, if you ever see "horizontal" Jeff Pegues in 'action' you might question your statement that all boxers are warriors. That guy is simply a record padder who the moment he catches any heat heads for the floor and stays there.

My comment was directed towards Barry.

I think most agree Vitali was the best around for a short period of time. No one here to my recollection has said that Vitali was as good as Louis or Ali. If someone said that they are off their rocker. Besides greatness is subjective. I read somewhere in the cyber boxing zone that Vitlai has the all time knock out percentage in the history of gloved boxing, and is the only of the few champions never to be floored by a punch in the history of gloved boxing.

Yet here at box rec I have seen the same post at least 20 times since I been a member here. Ad nausea. What's the point? Quitting is part of boxing. It happens. As I pointed out most fans would be shocked to know who quit.

Should we had weekly threads on other fighters quitting because it simply wasn’t their night? I think not. Yet we do at box rec.

Excellent point. I've never said Vitali was an all time great or anything, but he was not a quitter, just look at the Lewis fight for proof of that!. Why cant we give the man some credit and respect, I think thats the least he deserves...

[barry]

He does deserve credit for what he did accomplish, but that was not much...yet some people try to place him with the all-time greats, which I think that is the problem that most of us have. When the time came to show the true ability and character...to show what you are made of..too step up on the highest level...Vitali failed miserably!

As to the cut eye...it was a horrible cut, but during a similar debate about VK I decided to e-mail a few former fighters and a couple of former world champions and ask them about fighting with cut eyes and the overwhelming response that I got from the men who had been through similar experiences was that you don't feel a cut eye during the fight and you never know what it looks like until you go to the dressing room, but a fighter never knows what a cut is like during the fight, so it's a little difficult to put a cut eye in the same class as a fighter fighting with a broken arm. As I said, it was horrible cut, one of the worst that I can recall, but it didn't take extra heart to fight through a cut...especially since the fighter does not know how bad the cut is, which that is the majority response that I got!

[BoxBuzz]

Decagon, your a better historian than that....the only difference between Tszyu and Frazier was that Tszyu had the class to agree with his cornerman in public and disagree in private. Same kudos to both.

Tszyu-Hatton was nothing like Ali-Frazier III. Frazier never quit. At the time, we don't know what was going through Frazier's head. He probably wanted to go out for the 15th.

And what about Arturo Gatti? There was no quit in him, but later he agreed with his corner stopping his bout with Mayweather. Agreeing with a stoppage before it happens is quitting. Agreeing with a stoppage afterwards isn't. That's just how I see it; it's not about class.

There is an understanding between some fighters and their cornerman based on objective faith and honor. If you have that type of relationship (Which Futch and Frazier had) you are honor bound to take the objective view point and support it. Honor is very classy in most circles and I hold that opinion. Frazier for the most part was a classy guy but that was just sour grapes that he was unforgiving to someone who just cared about him and Eddie was simply "honor bound" to do what he thought was best.

No quit in Frazier and no quit in Kostya....but a difference in "honor" in the clutch. I.M.H.O. He simply did not argue with the person he had that honorable relationship with. To go in any other direction on this issue is pure spin. Kostya showed remarkable honor....and most of us would have done what Frazier did so I'm not faulting Joe. Joe was a very "reactive" guy...it's why Ali could play him so easily. Not a bad guy but very reactive. Kostya is a case study of the "non-reactive" mind.

There is no better or worse on this subject just different aspects of the human condition.

[silkov]

Well I've seen lots and lots of cut eyes and that has to be the worst one I've seen, you could actually see the inside of the bone etc. Cuts may not hurt at the time but if the blood is going into the eye then it causes lots of problems and is medically dangerous. Vitalis cut was bleeding badly but the worst thing about it was how big and wide it was... there was actually a flap of skin hanging down. Had the fight been allowed to carry on with a cut like that then Vitali could have suffered a career ending and life changing injury, remember these are heavyweights... I wouldnt have liked to see anymore punches landing on those cuts. The only comparable cut I have seen is the one which Bruce Woodcock suffered against Lee Savold... which basically ended his career and damaged his sight. As for the stoppage itself, it seems obvious to me that Vitali wanted to carry on, he didnt retire himself, the doctor stopped it and at the point where it seemed to me that Lewis had punched himself out and was ready for the taking. There are fights where fighters carry on with severe injuries such as Biggs vs Sims with a broken Collarbone and Williams vs Potter with a dislocated shoulder, Ali against Norton with his broken jaw, but these are really rarities in boxing... most fighters with significant injuries are stopped or decide themselves to pull out... but that doesnt make them 'quitters'... Duran did it against Leonard and Lawlor... but I would never label him a quitter... Pep against Saddler 2 times... Could Foreman have got up against Ali?.... etc the sport is littered with these instances... even Robinson against Maxim...
Vitali should be looked at as a talented fighter, great power, decent speed and skills, excellent chin... but let down by his constant inuries... not a great but probably for a time the best of his era but without the opportunity to prove it...

[barry]

>>>As for the stoppage itself, it seems obvious to me that Vitali wanted to carry on, he didnt retire himself, the doctor stopped it and at the point where it seemed to me that Lewis had punched himself out and was ready for the taking.<<<

Following the end of the last two rounds before the bout was stopped Vitali, going back to his corner and sitting between rounds, looked like a fighter that had just about had all that he wanted...and at the time of the stoppage Lewis had completely taken over the fight and was at that point just punishing Vitali and I certainly do not think that Lewis was anywhere near for the taking...now Vitali certainly was! He had shot his wad winning a few of the earlier rounds and Lewis had taken over in something like the fourth round...I don't recall exactly as I haven't watched the fight in a good while, but Lewis was clearly in control when the fight was stopped.



>>>There are fights where fighters carry on with severe injuries such as Biggs vs Sims with a broken Collarbone and Williams vs Potter with a dislocated shoulder, Ali against Norton with his broken jaw, but these are really rarities in boxing... most fighters with significant injuries are stopped or decide themselves to pull out... but that doesnt make them 'quitters'... Duran did it against Leonard and Lawlor... but I would never label him a quitter... Pep against Saddler 2 times... Could Foreman have got up against Ali?.... etc the sport is littered with these instances... even Robinson against Maxim...<<<

Well I just simply will not put Vitali in any category with those guys. In this sport quitting in a fight is looked down upon probably worse than anything else in boxing, or any other sport for that matter, but especially in boxing as the men in the ring are look to to be never-say-die warriors and when one does as Vitali, or even Duran or any others that quit in a fight in the manner that Vitali did then it will always be talked about and the talk will not be nice. Guys like Duran, or Tszyu...the fight that they quit in they were taking a beating and pretty much had no chance of winning...it was not like that with Vitali...he had a pretty good lead when he quit and the fact that he quit so late in the bout with only six minutes to go...well it will always be criticized and rightly so and just like the cut against Lewis was one of the worst that I can remember... the Byrd fight was the worst case of a fighter quitting that I can recall...except maybe when Bruce Seldon just laid down against Tyson, but in terms of quit-jobs...Vitali's is the worst I can remember!



>>>Vitali should be looked at as a talented fighter, great power, decent speed and skills, excellent chin... but let down by his constant inuries... not a great but probably for a time the best of his era but without the opportunity to prove it...<<<

I disagree! Vitali should be looked at as a good heavyweight with good power, decent speed, good skills and a better than average chin...he wasn't hit enough to garner a great chin status. He should be remembered as one of the true under-achievers in boxing history as much was praised about him and much was expected of him yet he failed to live up to the hype and in his two biggest fights he failed miserably, which is nothing to be ashamed of...a lot of fighters have failed miserably, but it was not what was expected of Vitali and being that he flat out quit with only a few minutes to go in a fight that he had built up a substantial lead in and by doing so he forever tarnished his place in boxing.

The best I can say about him is this, Vitali was a good heavyweight who should have done better than he actually did!

[silkov]

Well lets just agree to disagree on this, but that said I still dont really understand why you think Vitali did anything that bad against Byrd, he was injured and the injury was impairing his ability to fight so he pulled out... I dont see a problem with that. Had he pulled out with no injury thats another thing, but if a guy is injured like that then only he really knows what he should do and his decision should be respected imo. As for the Lewis fight I think its very wrong to criticise him for not carrying on in that bout... he had a horrific eye injury, besides that he was pulled out by the doctor, he didnt quit himself. Vitali looked himself that he was feeling it in the fight but the fact that he carried on like he did with that cut, for as long as he did shows some heart imo... what about some of the punches he took from Lewis?... punches that would have koed just about any other heavyweoght of that time... the fight itself swung from one to the other, the last round I remember was a good one for Lewis as he threw a lot at Vitali, but if you watch the fight again you'll see Lewis slumping down at the end of that round and Vitali looking aside from the cuts the fresher fighter imo.... I really think Lewis would have been in trouble in the next round as he seemed to have thrown everything in trying to stop Vitali yet couldnt... except by the cuts.... had it not been for the cuts Vitali could have carried on and won I think....
The fact that Lewis didnt want what would have been a pretty good money rematch says a lot I think...

[BoxBuzz]

But wouldnt Vital simplby be an "also ran" in the background of the Ibeabuchi championship reign?