BoxRec

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 12:55**

Just found this of Sugar Ray on US prankshow "Punk'd"

Amazing how he remained so calm. He was cool as ice during his fight career as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH2QtBZUPt0

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 13:38**

Pretty funny.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 15:26**

He wasn't so cool after Duran gave Juanita the finger. Duran made Leonard fight his fight and gave him a good whupping. Then he gave him a return.
But where was the return for Hagler?

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 16:07**

bennie wrote:He wasn't so cool after Duran gave Juanita the finger. Duran made Leonard fight his fight and gave him a good whupping. Then he gave him a return.
But where was the return for Hagler?

Good whooping? The biggest the judges gave it was for Duran by 2. I have it to Duran by a little wider, but a whooping it wasn't.

Who knows if Hagler would have accepted a rematch.... He was so disolutioned by the scoring that he didn't seem to be clear if he was going to retire or not.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 17:52**

stujones wrote:
bennie wrote:He wasn't so cool after Duran gave Juanita the finger. Duran made Leonard fight his fight and gave him a good whupping. Then he gave him a return.
But where was the return for Hagler?
Good whooping? The biggest the judges gave it was for Duran by 2. I have it to Duran by a little wider, but a whooping it wasn't.

Who knows if Hagler would have accepted a rematch.... He was so disolutioned by the scoring that he didn't seem to be clear if he was going to retire or not.

Dear, dear, dear. You really have have a future as an internet boxing writer. Duran dished out a one-sided beating in the first fight. Little Duran, approaching 30, beat two shades of shit out of him.
As for your comments on Hagler, well, I'm speechless.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 18:03**

As for the first Leonard - Duran fight, both fighters were in shape and look who won!! Have you ever seen a fight where a fighter made Leonard miss so much? The rematch Duran was not in shape and that was mostly Durans fault.

As for a Leonard - Hagler rematch. I thought Hagler won the first one (just) but everything I have ever read or heard suuggests for about 12 months Hagler was screaming for a rematch.

But Leonard wasn't listening and you have to ask yourself why? Regardless how you feel about the first enounter and a proposed rematch.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 19:02**

I would have love to have seen a Hagler rematch, the comments he (Hagler) made that were aired on ITV the day after the fight seemed to suggest that he was too angered to discuss his future. I do have old Ring magazines that seem to suggest he was very confused at the time - he would have loved to have fought Leonard again, but did wander if he would have fair treatment.... so questioned if it was worth it.

To be fair to Ray, he ALWAYS said it was going to be a one off fight with Hagler and that was it. When the fight was announced he declared he was not making a comeback.... it was a one off.

Okay he was out of "retirement" about 15 months later.... but he never said if he beats Hagler, he'll give him a rematch. Yes, credit to Duran for giving Leonard a second chance - but Leonard never backed down on his word to Hagler. Yes though, he should have stuck around for a rematch.

As for Leonard vs Duran 1, well it depends on your definition of a one sided fight. If a four point margin is considered one sided, then yes it was one sided - as that is my card. I personally wouldn't call it one sided, it was certainly no Lewis vs Tua.

Oh and here come those wonderful "excuses" regarding any wrong doing / poor performances that Roberto has had. I know you (KO JOE especially) say its was of Roberto's own doing, but please can the opponent have a little more credit.

We have had the "not in shape for fight 2" arguement before, we recently had the "Duran threw the Hearns fight and didn't train" arguement for the Hearns loss, plus the "Ken Buchanon was looking for the DQ" argument concerning Duran's title win.

Can someone enlighten this wanabee internet boxing writer on the real reason's why Duran lost to De Jesus, Kirklaind Laing, Wilfred Benetez, and Robbie Simms.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 19:16**

I dunno about the Hagler thing either. I loved the Marvellous one as much as the next man but if he had really wanted to force a rematch he could have gone in again with maybe Hearns, people would have paid top dollar to see that and another resounding win would have had the networks throwing so much money at SRL for a rematch he would not have turned it down.

Hagler-Leonard was close, fair case for giving it either way but I've reviewed it many a time (not for years it must be said) and always had Leonard a (very) close winner.

One of the truly remarkable results/comebacks in modern boxing history in my opinion.

The way Leonard came fighting out when Hagler backed him up in a corner in (I think) the 9th round of their fight made the hairs on my bollocks stand up.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 19:21**

I remember being a big Leonard fan at the time and was amazed when he won - On reflection and basically becoming an old git, I now believe Hagler won the fight.

Each time I see the fight, I am more convinced.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 19:27**

Goz wrote:I dunno about the Hagler thing either. I loved the Marvellous one as much as the next man but if he had really wanted to force a rematch he could have gone in again with maybe Hearns, people would have paid top dollar to see that and another resounding win would have had the networks throwing so much money at SRL for a rematch he would not have turned it down.

Hagler-Leonard was close, fair case for giving it either way but I've reviewed it many a time (not for years it must be said) and always had Leonard a (very) close winner.

One of the truly remarkable results/comebacks in modern boxing history in my opinion.

The way Leonard came fighting out when Hagler backed him up in a corner in (I think) the 9th round of their fight made the hairs on my bollocks stand up.

Agree with all that (although not the bollocks thingy!).

Bob Arum wanted Hearns vs Leonard II first and Hagler down the line vs the winner. He did want Hagler to return, and Arum was up for a supercard that would feature Hagler vs a decent opponent on this Hearns vs Leonard II card.

Perhaps the thought of Hearns again enforced Leonard's decision to retire (announced formally a month after beating Hagler). However, it did seem clear when he made his speach to the Cesar Palace crowd that he was going to retire.

Posted: **21 Sep 2006, 21:41**

stujones wrote:
Goz wrote:I dunno about the Hagler thing either. I loved the Marvellous one as much as the next man but if he had really wanted to force a rematch he could have gone in again with maybe Hearns, people would have paid top dollar to see that and another resounding win would have had the networks throwing so much money at SRL for a rematch he would not have turned it down.

Hagler-Leonard was close, fair case for giving it either way but I've reviewed it many a time (not for years it must be said) and always had Leonard a (very) close winner.

One of the truly remarkable results/comebacks in modern boxing history in my opinion.

The way Leonard came fighting out when Hagler backed him up in a corner in (I think) the 9th round of their fight made the hairs on my bollocks stand up.
Agree with all that (although not the bollocks thingy!).

Bob Arum wanted Hearns vs Leonard II first and Hagler down the line vs the winner. He did want Hagler to return, and Arum was up for a supercard that would feature Hagler vs a decent opponent on this Hearns vs Leonard II card.

Perhaps the thought of Hearns again enforced Leonard's decision to retire (announced formally a month after beating Hagler). However, it did seem clear when he made his speach to the Cesar Palace crowd that he was going to retire.

the only reason sugar ray gave hearns a rematch in 1989 was due to tommy's horrendous showing vs kinchen making him look TOTALLY SHOT...hearns still beat leonard in the rematch (as even ray later admitted) but got robbed by the judges!! :(

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 05:39**

Mmmm... now I'm a huge Hearns fan and thought Tommy won that fight, but if you watch the fight Leonard did a lot of good work to the body and hurt Hearns as much, maybe even more than Tommy hurt Leonard, especially in rounds five and twelve, even though he didn't knock him down.

Personally I don't think you could score rounds five and 12, 10-8 to Leonard.

Pretty much like the Hagler fight when you look at it, but this time with Hearns landing the eye-catching punches and Leonard chipping away at Tommy, like I said, with some excellent work on the inside.

Effin great fighters though, hey when you think the best we've had lately is Taylor v Hopkins.

Only top-notch fighters who've fought in fights that come close these days are the likes of Barrera, Morales and Pacquiao.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 06:05**

DIRT SUGAR wrote:Mmmm... now I'm a huge Hearns fan and thought Tommy won that fight, but if you watch the fight Leonard did a lot of good work to the body and hurt Hearns as much, maybe even more than Tommy hurt Leonard, especially in rounds five and twelve, even though he didn't knock him down.

Personally I don't think you could score rounds five and 12, 10-8 to Leonard.

Pretty much like the Hagler fight when you look at it, but this time with Hearns landing the eye-catching punches and Leonard chipping away at Tommy, like I said, with some excellent work on the inside.

Effin great fighters though, hey when you think the best we've had lately is Taylor v Hopkins.

Only top-notch fighters who've fought in fights that come close these days are the likes of Barrera, Morales and Pacquiao.

That fight was no robbery, the scores of 113-112 (either way) was about right. I don't think there is much of a case for round 12 to be scored 10-8 (as Hearns dominated the first minute), there is a case for round 5.

However, from rounds 5-10 (inclusive) Hearns didn't do much and clearly was still in some distress from the pounding he took in the 5th. However, Leonard was too busy loading up (Pepe Correra in the corner) and focusing on finishing Tommy to really say "A definate Leonard round". Had Leonard just focused on flurries and speed then I think he would have won quite convincingly, cause Hearns was out on his feet in the 5th and struggled to shake it off. Indeed, it was only KD in the 11th that Hearns woke up.

Bambi being mugged (as Reg put it) it wasn't.

I've made no secret of my admiration for Sugar Ray, but its not me just being bias here. I can definately see an arguement for Hagler winning (although, not on my card) their fight and if anyone scored it for Hagler I wouldn't say they cannot judge a fight..... But...... Did Duran ever give Leonard a one sided beating..... No, was Hearns ROBBED in the rematch...... No.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 06:14**

As I recall it, didn't Leonard say he would give Hagler a rematch, if Hagler admitted that Leonard had won their fight fair and square? I'm sure I remember reading this in ring magazine.

I figure Leonard wanted no part of a rematch, preferring to 'retire' until he found another fight that he could cherry pick.

Leonard was one hell of a fighter, but he was also one hell of a businessman and a canny bastard. There is no doubt at all that Duran was in woeful condition for that fight, he was over 200 lbs when Leonard offered him the rematch.

Quite why Duran took it is beyond me, ok, it was a big payday for him, but surely he could have said 'no mas' until he was in shape for the fight rather than taking laxatives and diuretics.

Christine Brinkley who was taking photographs for Vogue or Tattler or something for the magazine said that Robert had terrible stomach cramps before the fight from the laxatives he'd used to make weight, and that was why they kept dousing his stomach with water between rounds. Who knows if that is true.

Duran certainly got the better of Leonard psychologically in their first fight, but I doubt that Leonard would have fallen into the trap of getting into a straight up fight wiht Duran again. Whislt Duran in shape would definetly have been a tough assignment, I think it would have been a very even fight, and could have gone either way. Leonard actually held his own when brawling with Duran in any case, which says something about Leonard's underrated toughness.

I always fancied Hagler to do Leonard in a rematch. Had they had a smaller ring and had the fight over 15 rounds, I think Leonard would have gotten a pounding over the last 3rd of the fight. He said later that there were points in the fight where Hagler had him badly hurt, but he managed to kid his way out of it.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 06:16**

Old Ray has the patience of a saint in that clip, he should've given Junior a slap round the head.

And the first Duran fight was pretty close IMO, I imagine the punch stats would have been fairly close - both were throwing hell for leather for 15 long rounds.
OK he lost, but the pretty boy showed the world he could brawl with the BEST of them that night.

I made him winner in the Hagler fight too, but yes Marv deserved a rematch.

Leonard gets stick for that, but it seems modern great Barrera gets a pass. He calls for a Juarez rematch, to settle unfinished business, but where's the Pac Man rematch?

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 06:27**

jamesmcdonnell wrote:As I recall it, didn't Leonard say he would give Hagler a rematch, if Hagler admitted that Leonard had won their fight fair and square? I'm sure I remember reading this in ring magazine.

I figure Leonard wanted no part of a rematch, preferring to 'retire' until he found another fight that he could cherry pick.

Leonard was one hell of a fighter, but he was also one hell of a businessman and a canny bastard. There is no doubt at all that Duran was in woeful condition for that fight, he was over 200 lbs when Leonard offered him the rematch.

Quite why Duran took it is beyond me, ok, it was a big payday for him, but surely he could have said 'no mas' until he was in shape for the fight rather than taking laxatives and diuretics.

Christine Brinkley who was taking photographs for Vogue or Tattler or something for the magazine said that Robert had terrible stomach cramps before the fight from the laxatives he'd used to make weight, and that was why they kept dousing his stomach with water between rounds. Who knows if that is true.

Duran certainly got the better of Leonard psychologically in their first fight, but I doubt that Leonard would have fallen into the trap of getting into a straight up fight wiht Duran again. Whislt Duran in shape would definetly have been a tough assignment, I think it would have been a very even fight, and could have gone either way. Leonard actually held his own when brawling with Duran in any case, which says something about Leonard's underrated toughness.

I always fancied Hagler to do Leonard in a rematch. Had they had a smaller ring and had the fight over 15 rounds, I think Leonard would have gotten a pounding over the last 3rd of the fight. He said later that there were points in the fight where Hagler had him badly hurt, but he managed to kid his way out of it.

Agree with most of what you say, not sure on the stomach cramps thing - could be (I do know Duran was out of shape when the fight was announced).

I personally think Duran was too slow at Welter to beat a boxing Ray, in top shape or not. The first fight showed the Leonard could be competitive in a brawl and Ray would have built up an early lead on the cards.

As for a Hagler vs Leonard rematch, 15 rounds would have helped Hagler - but it wasn't long after their fight that 15 rounds were stopped anyway. I think Leonard would have survived a 15 rounder, but yeah I think Hagler might have nicked the decision.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 06:31**

What stuck in the craw was that Marvin was undisputed champion, the king of the division, a real champion, and he lost his belt on a contentious decision to Ray, who they abdicated and threw the belts in the garbage, and then pretty much ensured that Marvin never got a rematch. I thought that sucked big time. Poor old Marvin's world unravelled after that, he defined himself so much with being a champion, whereas to Leonard, the belts were not really important, not comared to being a superstar, which is how he saw himself.

Leonard had a huge planet sized ego, whereas Marvin was a man who seemed to need the belts to place himself. I felt really sorry for Marvin being humiliated like that by Leonard, put in a position where he had to swallow his pride and admit he was beaten by the better man in order to get a rematch, something he simply couldn't bring himself to do.

Were there rematch clauses back then? I doubt Leonard would have agreed to one in any case. He knew he was the biggest draw in boxing, and that everyone wanted to fight him because of the paydays involved.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 07:41**

Terence wrote:It is funny how Leonard was a very graceful boxer but he was disgraceful when a call came for a rematch. I got the impression that he wanted Hagler to beg for a rematch in much the way he had made Hearns plead for one. I like watching Ray, just got a career set to replace my VHS, but he is the one who set this cherry-picking template others follow. Personally, in terms of technique, I found Hagler and Hearns to be better.

I had Hagler beating Leonard, if Ray had kept his promise and stayed away from boxing it would easier to swallow but the fact is that Hagler had him looking exhausted and landed the more telling blows, in my opinion, the rematch would have made money and cleared things up.

Stu, I'm only an internet boxing wannabe (wanna not be a poorly paid journalist and keep this thing as an hobby) but, in my eyes, Duran lost quite a few fights due to the fact he, often, needed to be sharp to make his defence and attack work well in tandem. Plus he could be hit a fair bit.

People say Duran is a defensive master and he is that to an extent, he is not a Locche though, his defence was never completely airtight. Like Toney he is a defence minded fighter who gets hit a bit but needs that to open his guy up. Both Toney and Duran could be caught with single shots, usually certain shots get through, where they excelled was in the avoiding of the follow-up shot. They are proper counter punchers, someone like Wright, for me, veers too much into pure defence but with Toney and Duran there is always, or was, the chance of them catching a shot then rolling the follow through and countering with success.

That is why, with all due love and respect, I find it hard to accept Bennie's theory that the man on the grassy knoll shot Duran in the chin with a rubber bullet and made it look like Hearns KO'd him. It looked to me that his approach was all wrong and Hearns left no margin for error.

Yep, I'd go along with that Terrence. He wanted Hagler to prostrate himself for that rematch, and furthermore I think he knew that Marvin would NEVER humble himself like that. Second time around, Marvin wouldn't have tried to outbox Leonard in the first four rounds and that was probably all the difference needed seeing how razor thin the fight was.

Never thought about it, but Toney and Duran are similar fighters, like to fight in close and roll with the punches. Both men were also excellent at taking the sting out of their opponents shots by keeping them backed up so they couldn't get full leverage. With Hearns though, those freakishly long levers allowed him to generate phenomenal power in hooks and uppercuts whilst standing up straight or even backed up, and he could guide a shot in there like a heat seeking missile, plus he had the skills

Leonard was flashy, but he really could fight, I'm not sure if I agree that Hearns or Hagler were better technicians. Leonard could fight in the pocket, blocks shots then rattle of a 6 punch combination and go back into his shell. He was outboxed by Hearns, but I think that was due to Hearns height and reach advantages which forced Leonard to come forward and look for openings, he couldn't afford to stay on the outside and try and time Tommy, because he was getting speared with Tommy's excellent and hurtful jab.

I'm going to watch Hagler v Leonard again, I've ordered it, be interesting to see what i think, I suspect that it's one of those that I may find it very hard to call.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 08:10**

Leonard was a great fighter, but he was also a great manipulator (The Contender is right up his street, given how contrived it is). I can't forgive Leonard for the way he stuck two fingers up at boxing history and made a world light-heavyweight champion come in at 12st to defend against him.
That was, quite simply, despicable.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 08:24**

However, you could argue that it was his opponents greed which played into his hands, and that had they had more sense, they would have told Leonard to go poke it when he came with ridiculous requests.

Thing is, had they done so, chances are Leonard would never have agreed to fight them. Leonard, like DLH today, knew that he could call the shots, and could cherry pick fights. His retirements were nothing of the sort, he was just waiting for opportunities for big fights, and the ballyhoo of saying he was 'coming out of retirement' made the fights even bigger.

Having said that, to be able to compete with Hagler, even a slightly diminished Hagler, with no competitive fights in the intervening four years, is one of the most incredible performances in boxing history. It would have been like Holmes beating Tyson in their fight. Sure, ray sparred and trained every day, but it takes almighty confidence to get in that ring with a guy who despite his fading skills was still bashing the hell out of people, move up in weight (wonder how much weight Leonard conceded on the night, must have been around 15 lbs or more) and win!

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 10:15**

bennie wrote:
stujones wrote:
bennie wrote:He wasn't so cool after Duran gave Juanita the finger. Duran made Leonard fight his fight and gave him a good whupping. Then he gave him a return.
But where was the return for Hagler?
Good whooping? The biggest the judges gave it was for Duran by 2. I have it to Duran by a little wider, but a whooping it wasn't.

Who knows if Hagler would have accepted a rematch.... He was so disolutioned by the scoring that he didn't seem to be clear if he was going to retire or not.
Dear, dear, dear. You really have have a future as an internet boxing writer. Duran dished out a one-sided beating in the first fight. Little Duran, approaching 30, beat two shades of shit out of him.
As for your comments on Hagler, well, I'm speechless.

Firstly - what has your initial comments goto do with the thread other pure negativity

Second - Yes I gave it to Duran by a WIDE margin. Ass whooping - not so much Duran isn't that big a hitter

Third - he still beat Duran and Hagler, we should have seen re-matches of both, but he still beat them, give props where they due

Fourth - SRL is very dignified

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 10:20**

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
bennie wrote:
stujones wrote: Good whooping? The biggest the judges gave it was for Duran by 2. I have it to Duran by a little wider, but a whooping it wasn't.

Who knows if Hagler would have accepted a rematch.... He was so disolutioned by the scoring that he didn't seem to be clear if he was going to retire or not.
Dear, dear, dear. You really have have a future as an internet boxing writer. Duran dished out a one-sided beating in the first fight. Little Duran, approaching 30, beat two shades of shit out of him.
As for your comments on Hagler, well, I'm speechless.
Firstly - what has your initial comments goto do with the thread other pure negativity

Second - Yes I gave it to Duran by a WIDE margin. Ass whooping - not so much Duran isn't that big a hitter

Third - he still beat Duran and Hagler, we should have seen re-matches of both, but he still beat them, give props where they due

Fourth - SRL is very dignified

First...doesn't merit a reply.

Second...Duran not that big a hitter? Jesus.

Third...Leonard gave Duran a rematch in 1989, Typically, he made Duran, who had just won the WBC middleweight title, fight at super-middleweight.

Fourth...Leonard is a control freak.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 10:59**

bennie wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
bennie wrote: Dear, dear, dear. You really have have a future as an internet boxing writer. Duran dished out a one-sided beating in the first fight. Little Duran, approaching 30, beat two shades of shit out of him.
As for your comments on Hagler, well, I'm speechless.
Firstly - what has your initial comments goto do with the thread other pure negativity

Second - Yes I gave it to Duran by a WIDE margin. Ass whooping - not so much Duran isn't that big a hitter

Third - he still beat Duran and Hagler, we should have seen re-matches of both, but he still beat them, give props where they due

Fourth - SRL is very dignified
First...doesn't merit a reply.

Second...Duran not that big a hitter? Jesus.

Third...Leonard gave Duran a rematch in 1989, Typically, he made Duran, who had just won the WBC middleweight title, fight at super-middleweight.

Fourth...Leonard is a control freak.

As i dont speak Spanish i do not know what "manos de piedra" means which is next to durans name in his record on this site. However i have heard hundreds of people refer to him as hands of stone. Now i understand he is getting on a bit, but i'm sure that doesn't mean his hands are fossills.

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 11:06**

I haven't seen all of Durans fights, but never saw him having 1 devastating punch in all the fights I've see n - only seen 3 at lightweight, SRL fights, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler. Hes more of at a Hatton type puncher than a Tyszu/Corrales devastating puncher

Posted: **22 Sep 2006, 11:09**

Terence wrote:
Leonard was flashy, but he really could fight, I'm not sure if I agree that Hearns or Hagler were better technicians. Leonard could fight in the pocket, blocks shots then rattle of a 6 punch combination and go back into his shell. He was outboxed by Hearns, but I think that was due to Hearns height and reach advantages which forced Leonard to come forward and look for openings, he couldn't afford to stay on the outside and try and time Tommy, because he was getting speared with Tommy's excellent and hurtful jab.
This reminds me of an argument I had with my mate about whether Ginola or Keane was the better technical player, he said David G but I felt he was a flair player and Keane could do more and was a better technician. It is a moot point. All four those guys were very good boxers.

I think Leonard could fight in the pocket when facing a guy who couldn't I feel, over two fights, Tommy out-boxed him for longer periods yet I would not overlook the fact that Ray switched and pulled the fight out of the bag.

As for Hagler-Leonard, maybe Hagler felt that he would be better served jabbing through Ray's flurries and then when he did switch stances Ray would have shot his bolt and he could maul him into defeat. He did block a lot of shots, Hagler, in those early rounds and some hit him on the bonce.

I have the original broadcast and it was a Leonard love-in, Gil Clancy went down in my eyes when he overlooked everything Hagler did and spent the last round eulogising Ray.

I'm alternating career sets of the four guys at the moment. It is fooking great stuff

Where did you get those sets from Terrence, and did they cost much. I've been looking for your Joe Louis sets by the way, no luck so far, I know I packed them, but the place is a tip at the moment, but hopefully will get to them next week some time.

Wouldn't mind purchasing some careers sets of those guys.

BoxRec

Ray Leonard getting "Punk'd"

Ray Leonard getting "Punk'd"