BoxRec

The recent posts regarding the merits of Gerrie Coetzee got me wondering about this.

Who would you say was the best ever? Or even best 5 ever.

Is it between Coetzee and Sanders for top spot?

Or are there some older ones worth considering? Ben Foord had a few good wins.

Trivia: There was a South African heavy who I read about in Boxing News years ago. At 7'2" , Ewart Potgieter must easily take the title of tallest ever pro heavy fom The Republic.

why Sanders (?) just cause he's known,

No!
Best used to mean because they were very, very good or outstanding!

Johnny Ralph beats Sanders and so do his 'rivals' Wolverans & DeVilliers...

Coetzee YES, and I'm sure some of the other board members can think of a few.

Surely must be Coetzee.

I like Coetzee he had good lateral movement for a heavyweight. Also he kind of looked like Danny Lopez' older brother.

http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1027189424.jpg http://i15.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/ef/d8/d0_2.JPG

jimglen wrote:why Sanders (?) just cause he's known,

No!
Best used to mean because they were very, very good or outstanding!

Johnny Ralph beats Sanders and so do his 'rivals' Wolverans & DeVilliers...

Coetzee YES, and I'm sure some of the other board members can think of a few.

I mentioned Sanders as a possible candidate. You don't think he was. Fair enough, but posting your reasoning would be useful.

I had a look at Johnny Ralph's record on boxrec. Gee, mate, I know records don't tell the whole story but it doesn't exactly sparkle with names does it? Apart from Freddie Mills and Bruce Woodcock who both KO'd him, of course. You're gonna have to take me through your logic here, Jim, because from where I am sitting there is nothing there that suggests your criteria of "very, very good or outstanding" applies to this fellow (not that it aplies to Sanders either, but heavyweight talent in South African boxing isn't very deep so anyone with a win or two against world top 10 opponents has to be considered).

Wolmarans record (I assume you mean Wolmarans) looks even less inspiring expecially given Ralph beat him by KO. Again, your reasoning might be enlightening.

De Villers we don't really need to consider. Or do we? Help me out here Jim. His record doesn't look too inspiring but maybe I'm missing something.

Collins2000 wrote: I mentioned Sanders as a possible candidate. You don't think he was. Fair enough, but posting your reasoning would be useful.

I had a look at Johnny Ralph's record on boxrec. Gee, mate, I know records don't tell the whole story but it doesn't exactly sparkle with names does it? Apart from Freddie Mills and Bruce Woodcock who both KO'd him, of course. You're gonna have to take me through your logic here, Jim, because from where I am sitting there is nothing there that suggests your criteria of "very, very good or outstanding" applies to this fellow (not that it aplies to Sanders either, but heavyweight talent in South African boxing isn't very deep so anyone with a win or two against world top 10 opponents has to be considered).

Wolmarans record (I assume you mean Wolmarans) looks even less inspiring expecially given Ralph beat him by KO. Again, your reasoning might be enlightening.

De Villers we don't really need to consider. Or do we? Help me out here Jim. His record doesn't look too inspiring but maybe I'm missing something.

I believe there was a conspiracy against them.

Has to be Coetzee I think... better all round fighter to Sanders... better opposition... I'd probably rate Kallie Knoetzee above Sanders actually.
Foord was good but not in Coetzees class really...

Not exactly a historical powerhouse for heavyweight boxing, I suppose it has to be Coetzee. He ko'd Leon Spinks and Michael Dokes, won the WBA title, got a raw deal against Snipes and Page and was very competitive with Thomas, Tate and Weaver.

I've only seen Sanders and Botha from the modern group, never actually saw Knoetze or DuPlooy, perhaps RazorKO would be able to tell us if they were any good?

Knoetze was a rather limited fighter with a huge punch. He was part of the box off to find a champion after Ali retired following his decision win over Spinks. Knoetze was in the 4 man tournament mostly due to a KO of Duane Bobick, but also had some wins over some solid journeymen. He was stopped by John Tate who went on to beat Coetzee after Coeztee stomped Leon Spinks in the other eliminator. It was a pretty interesting tournament as I recall, and was way more legitimate than the title that was simply handed to Ken Norton who then subsequently lost his title to Holmes.

I would say that Coetzee was the best SA HW, and was actually a pretty good fighter. At his best, he was certainly better than any of today’s top HWs. Unfortunately, he often gets ridiculed on this forum, although we all know why.

Gerrie Coetzee. Best record & credentials IMO.

Sanders 2nd. Botha 3rd but a long way off Coetzee & Sanders. And after that throw Knoetzee, DuPlooy, Coetzer all in one big muddling pile.

Flump wrote:
got a raw deal against Page

Can you elaborate on this fella? Its just i feel Page went over to his backyard and dominated him, dont know how there was a raw deal.

I know the 8th rd ran 4 mins, but its not like Coetzee looked like he had more than 1 rd left in him anyway. Page was on great form that night.

Remember before Tyson went to prison they were starting a big build up for a Tyson vs Botha match up?

To show how tasteless boxing promoters truly are they were framing the publicity for it around the issue of Apartheid. Nothing like using a modern day system of systematic racism to sell a PPV.

Atleast when this was done in the USA in the first half of the 20th century the fights could be listend too for free.

Not 'my' logic...just one simple fact; "the SINGLE greatest period in Boxing History..."

the competition level has "hardly" been greater...much busier and hungrier fighters in this period, again Not MY facts, but the general consensus!

Also many of these records are incomplete and as one reporter put it...

" with only one world champion and a time when true champions and contenders fought each other every night of the week "

the 'top' men in all the "major" boxing countries were indeed top men.

overhand_right wrote:

Flump wrote:
got a raw deal against Page

Can you elaborate on this fella? Its just i feel Page went over to his backyard and dominated him, dont know how there was a raw deal.

I know the 8th rd ran 4 mins, but its not like Coetzee looked like he had more than 1 rd left in him anyway. Page was on great form that night.

Yes mate, I was referring to the overun of round 8, the last thing you need when you're getting beaten up is a 4 minute round. I wasn't suggesting he would have won the fight but that didn't help!

BTW I'd forgotten about Pierre Coetzer, very tough guy but not enough power for the top level. He also had a fantastic moustache.

jimglen wrote:Not 'my' logic...just one simple fact; "the SINGLE greatest period in Boxing History..."

the competition level has "hardly" been greater...much busier and hungrier fighters in this period, again Not MY facts, but the general consensus!

Also many of these records are incomplete and as one reporter put it...

" with only one world champion and a time when true champions and contenders fought each other every night of the week "

the 'top' men in all the "major" boxing countries were indeed top men.

You are still mistaking fact with opinion, Jim.


The records may be incomplete but I doubt by much. It's not like we are talking 19th century here. Maybe you think a victory over Joe Louis has been omitted?

Flump wrote:Not exactly a historical powerhouse for heavyweight boxing, I suppose it has to be Coetzee. He ko'd Leon Spinks and Michael Dokes, won the WBA title, got a raw deal against Snipes and Page and was very competitive with Thomas, Tate and Weaver.

I've only seen Sanders and Botha from the modern group, never actually saw Knoetze or DuPlooy, perhaps RazorKO would be able to tell us if they were any good?

Ill have to agree that Coetzee was the best HW from S.A
As Gil Clancy said before the Pinklon Thomas bout that Coetzee had all the attributes to make a great heavyweight, the size, takes a great punch and is powerful with either hand. The only downfall of Coetzee is that he had very dreadful endurance - maybe even as bad as Shavers and he tired out easily. He was robbed against Snipes as we all know and he definetly had it bad when he fought Page, the fight wasnt all one sided as people think and Page used a lot of dirty tactics in the fight - Before the bell rung in round 2 Page came rushing in hitting Coetzee when he was busy putting his own gumshield in, he knocked Coetzee down after the bell in round 6 and in round 7 it looked like Coetzee was comming back into the fight stunning Page with hard right hands.
When round 8 came it looked to me as though Gerrie was about to turn the tide when a left hook from Page at the 3:50 mark knocked him out. At that time Coetzee should of been in his corner attended to by his seconds but nevertheless Page fought a good, brave fight and took Coetzee's best shots.

I myself have never seen Knoetze fight but Ive seen a couple of Duplooy fights and in my opinion Johnny wasnt that good at the elite level. His best win was when he knocked a past it Weaver out cold with a right hand to the side of the head but not before being stopped himself in the first match, Duplooy like Coetzee also had very bad endurance i.e the Snipes fight where Duplooy was winning handily but was also punching himself out at the same time and Johnny dropped to his knees and walked back to his corner saying he had enough. Snipes beat him on pure heard in that fight.

Coetzee is the best South African heavyweight ever. Sanders has the best scalp among the competitors of the country, but Coetzee had an overall better resume. Moreover, Coetzee was just better as a boxer. He was around the top for a quite some amount of time. Sanders' career is more like a cinderella story.

Actually, it's fair to notice, how interesting their scene looked like at the period of time since the late 70s until the early 90s. After the general changes in their country the level of boxing somehow declined. In the late 90s and the early 00s only Sanders and Botha were noticeable. Now there's nobody from there.

It obviously isn't Sanders, except to Klit lickers, ya he had one great result, but look at the rest of his career. He was a guy with talents but who was also sloppy, out of shape, and chinny. The Rahman fight is a good one to sum him up--he showed good power and obviously could crack with the left, but ends up getting out lasted and knocked out. Coetzee was far more solid and reliable and showed it across many fights, Botha too

Coetzee is the best South African heavyweight ever. Sanders has the best scalp among the competitors of the country, but Coetzee had an overall better resume. Moreover, Coetzee was just better as a boxer. He was around the top for a quite some amount of time. Sanders' career is more like a cinderella story.

Actually, it's fair to notice, how interesting their scene looked like at the period of time since the late 70s until the early 90s. After the general changes in their country the level of boxing somehow declined. In the late 90s and the early 00s only Sanders and Botha were noticeable. Now there's nobody from there.

Good, factual post Dr. Duke

The South African HW scene was not as piss poor/bang average as some people have lazily said.....they produced a lot of decent heavyweights who were very much part of the top-line mix and for quite a while.

Considering that most big/athletic men almost certainly graduated to pro rugby - the dominant sport of the time in SA - they kind of outperformed themselves again.

They certainly had more bona fide heavyweights in big fights than say Australia, France, Spain or Germany from the late 70s through to the early 90s. Sanders, Botha, Du Plooy, Coetzee, Coetzer, Knoetze all won some big fights and a few titles.

Where the HW scene has gone now is anyone's guess.....but I guess that rugby is the king for any big fella and I think the SA boxing business has got into a bad way.