BoxRec

Only Rocky Marciano has done that as an Undisputed Heavyweight Champ.

Lewis' only two defeats against McCall and Rahman were avenged in rematches, and the 'draw' against Holyfield was avenged in a rematch.
(Note Lewis clearly won the first bout with Evander, the 2nd was closer though HBO still scored a close win for Lewis).

Lewis defeated everyone else the single time he faced them and chalked up 15 title defences.

Definately All time great stats!

The stats are good, but how many all time greats would have been ko'd by McCall or Rahman? That's (always) the question.

That's an argument that would probably get grinded down in 'modern big v smaller tougher old-timer'?

Still, look at Ali get clocked by Frazier in 71, and get back up to finish the fight. Look at Lewis against McCall n 94, who looked more able to continue - even bearing in mind Ali was in round 15 and Lewis in 2?
BUT, how much bearing does this have on a head to head between Lewis and Ali? Ali wasn't a KO artist. I think Ali would beat Lewis, all the same.

But would Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Johnson et al get KO'd by the likes of Rahman or McCall? Does it matter? Awwwwww, I dunno.
This argument has been played out enough times here that we know the course of the argument about to be played out.
Maybe we will all come to an identical conclusion this time and live happily ever after????

DonCorleone wrote:The stats are good, but how many all time greats would have been ko'd by McCall or Rahman? That's (always) the question.

That's an argument that would probably get grinded down in 'modern big v smaller tougher old-timer'?

Still, look at Ali get clocked by Frazier in 71, and get back up to finish the fight. Look at Lewis against McCall n 94, who looked more able to continue - even bearing in mind Ali was in round 15 and Lewis in 2?
BUT, how much bearing does this have on a head to head between Lewis and Ali? Ali wasn't a KO artist. I think Ali would beat Lewis, all the same.

But would Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Johnson et al get KO'd by the likes of Rahman or McCall? Does it matter? Awwwwww, I dunno.
This argument has been played out enough times here that we know the course of the argument about to be played out.
Maybe we will all come to an identical conclusion this time and live happily ever after????

Not the point of the post!
But you wouldn't fancy a sub 200 pound Demspey, Johnson or Marciano taking a punch from 240 pound Rahman or McCall?
Heavyweights are bigger and more powerful than those of yesteryear.

Anyway Lennox has still beaten everyone he has ever faced. Fact

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:

DonCorleone wrote:The stats are good, but how many all time greats would have been ko'd by McCall or Rahman? That's (always) the question.

That's an argument that would probably get grinded down in 'modern big v smaller tougher old-timer'?

Still, look at Ali get clocked by Frazier in 71, and get back up to finish the fight. Look at Lewis against McCall n 94, who looked more able to continue - even bearing in mind Ali was in round 15 and Lewis in 2?
BUT, how much bearing does this have on a head to head between Lewis and Ali? Ali wasn't a KO artist. I think Ali would beat Lewis, all the same.

But would Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Johnson et al get KO'd by the likes of Rahman or McCall? Does it matter? Awwwwww, I dunno.
This argument has been played out enough times here that we know the course of the argument about to be played out.
Maybe we will all come to an identical conclusion this time and live happily ever after????

Not the point of the post!
But you wouldn't fancy a sub 200 pound Demspey, Johnson or Marciano taking a punch from 240 pound Rahman or McCall?
Heavyweights are bigger and more powerful than those of yesteryear.
Anyway Lennox has still beaten everyone he has ever faced. Fact

HA HA!!!!!!!!
I saw that one coming!!!!!!
But hey, you have a good point. To stop dodging the issue, I have to grudgingly admit that I think Lewis is an all time great. It's just that I will be more comfortable saying that to my grandkids when they are hyping Mayweather Jr Jr or whoever is gonna be the hotshot in years to come.

DonCorleone wrote:
Does it matter? Awwwwww, I dunno.
This argument has been played out enough times here that we know the course of the argument about to be played out.

Exactly....

Well since this section of the forum is about boxers of the past....
things are going to re-run because there is nothing new to talk about.
Its boxing history!

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Well since this section of the forum is about boxers of the past....
things are going to re-run because there is nothing new to talk about.
Its boxing history!

Fair enough but it's worth using the search function to check for old threads on the same subject before starting a new one.

Welcome to the forum

I believe that Lewis didnt take McCall or Rahman (especially) seriously when he fought them. Lewis could have continued in the first McCall fight, the ref stopped it. Lewis undertrained in the Rahman bout, and as such struggled at altitude....was knackered by round 5 and kayoed. He completely dominated both McCall and Rahman in both rematches.
Lewis gets too much criticism for these defeats, he clearly showed he was the best heavyweight of his generation

Bottome line is Lennox Lewis was a very good boxer. He used his size and talents well.

Second bottom line is he fought a clearly Post-prime Holyfield. He won their first match and lost their second match (but was given the dec as a make up for the first fight......it was something like 80% of those sports writers at ringside had Holyfield winning their second match.....but that is neither here nor there).

Lennox was a fine champion with tremendous talents. That being said I still believe a prime Holyfield & Tyson stop him inside of 10.

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote: Anyway Lennox has still beaten everyone he has ever faced. Fact

And........ ?

dr_devious wrote:I believe that Lewis didnt take McCall or Rahman (especially) seriously when he fought them. Lewis could have continued in the first McCall fight, the ref stopped it. Lewis undertrained in the Rahman bout, and as such struggled at altitude....was knackered by round 5 and kayoed. He completely dominated both McCall and Rahman in both rematches.
Lewis gets too much criticism for these defeats, he clearly showed he was the best heavyweight of his generation

Altitude, I believe, is a word which has attained cult status on this forum. Good to see it pop up again.

Just found this:

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52891

Decagon wrote:

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Only Rocky Marciano has done that as an Undisputed Heavyweight Champ.

And Tunney, and Johanssen, and Bowe... Also, they did it without being knocked out by two journeymen.

We shouldn't let small facts spoil big fantasies...

pundit wrote:

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote: Anyway Lennox has still beaten everyone he has ever faced. Fact

And........ ?

Lewis and Marciano stand out from Tunney, Bowe, Johnsson.

Tunney only defended the title at HW twice, Bowe was only on top for one year. Johnsson lost ot back to Floyd Paterson very quickly.

Lewis and marciano however are all time greats

There can be no doubts about Lewis' greatness.

Yes, he was KO'd, but so was Joe Louis & he went on to become the greatest HW of all time & nobody doubts his greatness.

Syntax Error wrote:There can be no doubts about Lewis' greatness.

Yes, he was KO'd, but so was Joe Louis & he went on to become the greatest HW of all time & nobody doubts his greatness.

Good point. 15 title defences is an impressive feat.
Everyone seems to forget that many great HW champs were KO'd when they bash lewis.

Max Schleming who KO'd a prime Joe Louis was no better than Hasim Rahman

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Max Schleming who KO'd a prime Joe Louis was no better than Hasim Rahman

Oh just fcuk off.

DoubleM wrote:

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Max Schleming who KO'd a prime Joe Louis was no better than Hasim Rahman

Oh just fcuk off.

Oh just grow up.

[quote="Heartbreak_Kid79]
Max Schleming who KO'd a prime Joe Louis was no better than Hasim Rahman[/quote]

I think you are wrong there, but whose to say? I would not claim to know the answer for sure.
Brave statement.

Syntax Error wrote:There can be no doubts about Lewis' greatness.

Yes, but not for the reason given in the opening post. Most would have Lewis in their top 20 ATG HW, and many (including myself) in the top 10.

Yes, he was KO'd, but so was Joe Louis & he went on to become the greatest HW of all time & nobody doubts his greatness.

This is an inadequate comparison. Louis was KOed by Schmeling and Marciano, two ATGs, with the first loss coming before Louis' title reign and the second thereafter.

Lewis was KOed during his reign by McCall and Rahman, two second-rate fighters.

This said, you can be ranked below Louis and still be an ATG -- after all all heavyweight ATGs except perhaps Ali do.

DonCorleone wrote:[quote="Heartbreak_Kid79]
Max Schleming who KO'd a prime Joe Louis was no better than Hasim Rahman

I think you are wrong there, but whose to say? I would not claim to know the answer for sure.
Brave statement.[/quote]

Not afraid to stick my neck out.

Schleming is never mentioned as an all time great is he?
Rahman would destroy a 190 pound Schleming regardless

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Max Schleming who KO'd a prime Joe Louis was no better than Hasim Rahman

Oh just fcuk off.

Oh just grow up.

It's you who needs to grow up and sort out your shitty logic.

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Rahman would destroy a 190 pound Schleming regardless

Request: reasons why.

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote: Schmeling is never mentioned as an all time great is he?

Many if not most people have him in their top 20 and rightly so.

DoubleM wrote:

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Rahman would destroy a 190 pound Schleming regardless

Request: reasons why.

Infact I bet I know your answer already - "he's bigger, he's more powerful."

Right... Schmeling was probably more durable, and much more skilled & intelligent. A bit faster, with far better stamina, and he hit easily hard enough to hurt Rahman. It would be a classic case of the very good smaller man beating the half-decent bigger man.