BoxRec

Never seen this one proposed. Could the man who beat one half of the "best HW ever concensus" do it twice?

How about Smokin Joe on the night he beat Ali VS The Bomber on the night he lost to Schmeling? Or would you want to propose different points in their respective careers?

Hey it seemed like an interesting matchup and believe it or not I could not find it in the history here.

BoxBuzz wrote:Never seen this one proposed. Could the man who beat one half of the "best HW ever concensus" do it twice?

How about Smokin Joe on the night he beat Ali VS The Bomber on the night he lost to Schmeling? Or would you want to propose different points in their respective careers?

Hey it seemed like an interesting matchup and believe it or not I could not find it in the history here.

Interesting matchup. the question is ...could Frazier find the the weakness of Joe Louis, lowering his arm after a double-jab, like Schmeling did... and is his countering right cross as powerfull as Schmelings ? Or could he find alternative tactics to beat Louis ?

Maybe it's never been proposed because it would be the consensus opinion that Louis was heads and tails better than Smokin' Joe...Of course Frazier would have a "puncher's chance" with that left hook...but Louis wasn't as vulnerable to the hook as some other Frazier opponents tended to be, and Frazier had a history of starting slow...so I'd be watching for the early KO by Louis...and when comparing these kind of match ups...prime vs. prime!...not one guy's best night vs. another guys worst...I don't think Frazier would have been able to exploit Louis the way Schmeling did anyway...so even on that night, I'd take Louis...don't forget, Frazier could be hit...and Joe Louis hit HARD (and fast)! Perhaps the most effective combination punching heavyweight ever...(both speed and power)...others may have been faster, others may have hit harder...but not in the same package...Joe Louis was devasting...and there's plenty of nice clear film proving that...

Sweet Scientist wrote:Maybe it's never been proposed because it would be the consensus opinion that Louis was heads and tails better than Smokin' Joe...Of course Frazier would have a "puncher's chance" with that left hook...but Louis wasn't as vulnerable to the hook as some other Frazier opponents tended to be, and Frazier had a history of starting slow...so I'd be watching for the early KO by Louis...and when comparing these kind of match ups...prime vs. prime!...not one guy's best night vs. another guys worst...I don't think Frazier would have been able to exploit Louis the way Schmeling did anyway...so even on that night, I'd take Louis...don't forget, Frazier could be hit...and Joe Louis hit HARD (and fast)! Perhaps the most effective combination punching heavyweight ever...(both speed and power)...others may have been faster, others may have hit harder...but not in the same package...Joe Louis was devasting...and there's plenty of nice clear film proving that...

agreed
...but I don't think the 1936 Schmeling-fight was Louis worst one.

Sweet Scientist wrote:Maybe it's never been proposed because it would be the consensus opinion that Louis was heads and tails better than Smokin' Joe... ...

Yep and that same concensus says that Ali was better than Joe (The Smoker) ...As Joe (The Bomber) was better than Max....and yet these things happen.

Interesting, I need to sleep on this one.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Sweet Scientist wrote:Maybe it's never been proposed because it would be the consensus opinion that Louis was heads and tails better than Smokin' Joe... ...

Yep and that same concensus says that Ali was better than Joe (The Smoker) ...As Joe (The Bomber) was better than Max....and yet these things happen.

And that "same consensus" would be right, based on our vast historical knowledge base...(and rematches)...it would be pretty hard to pick an upset in a theoretical fight, kind of goes against the grain (or train of thought), don't you think? Either you think Fighter A would win, or you thing Fighter B would win...if you think Fighter A is better, but Fighter B will win anyway, you may be violating Einstein's unified field theory...

but some here will champion the idea that though a fighter can be rated higher than another in general, the "face to face" experience will be variant.

My opinion would be, 'The cream always rises'...why they have rematches, I guess...lose two in a row, the other guy must have been better, all other things being equal...

Except of course for the Charles/Moore Anomolie...one of Physics' greatest mysteries.

Or...maybe Ezzard is out and out underrated...maybe...

If Joe Louis went into the Schmelling fight ill prepared, and some think that was the case, and you take the same Joe Louis and put him in with Frazier than I give the advantage to Smokin Joe. Talent is only part of the equasion, training and preperation also play a big role.

kick asner wrote:If Joe Louis went into the Schmelling fight ill prepared, and some think that was the case, and you take the same Joe Louis and put him in with Frazier than I give the advantage to Smokin Joe. Talent is only part of the equasion, training and preperation also play a big role.

Training and preparation weren't problems for a young Joe Louis...I don't believe he was "ill prepared"...Schmeling was, perhaps, "better prepared" after studying hours of film...and remember that into the early '70's, Max was ranked in many knowledgable old timers top ten lists...and, he was a highly ranked ex-champion in 1936...bottom line here: UPSET ...Any confusion about who was really the better fighter? Watch the rematch tape, only takes a minute or so to watch the whole thing and...it leaves little doubt. Frazier wasn't one who studied film looking to exploit an opponent's weakness...Frazier figured he could create a weakness in any opponent by relentlessly pressuring him into submission...usually worked...wouldn't against Louis, who would be punching with both hands as opposed to relying on double & triple hooks...that's not to say it wouldn't be a desirable fight to watch...I just think the outcome is quite predictable...a boxer tended to give Louis more trouble than a slugger...a wade in slugger would be catching some heavy leather from Joe Louis...Louis is the last man standing in this one...

Sweet Scientist wrote:Or...maybe Ezzard is out and out underrated...maybe...

Preachin to the choir on this one...Moore and Ezzard both all time greats crem de le crem.

I think Frazier would win the first fight through constant pressure and a quick left hook. Louis would win the next two however, once Blackburn shows Louis how to utilize the uppercut to its maximum and how to shift and slide and create angles.

..boxbuzz continues to irritate..this time by matching a bad louis night with a good frazier one. even with this set up i still think louis scores an early kayo.

...and i'm in agreement with friedie that the first fight with max was not louis' worst fight....he was still landing the jab and some combinations even while he was in a fog.

...my pick for the bomber's worst.....godoy #1. friedie.....curious...what's yours?

...curious...Joe beat Godoy (I know it was ugly), but he (rightly) got the decision...Schmeling actually stopped him...pretty tough to say he looked better against Schmeling than Godoy...unless, of course, your talking about the rematches... ...doesn't a KO ending account for a large percentage of how good or bad a fighter looked on a particular day?

Jaclem wrote:...and i'm in agreement with friedie that the first fight with max was not louis' worst fight....he was still landing the jab and some combinations even while he was in a fog.

...my pick for the bomber's worst.....godoy #1. friedie.....curious...what's yours?

i think the Louis of the late 40ties and beginning 50ties was not the same good fighter he was in the 30ties, especially after the wins over Carnera and Baer. Probably the worst of his career was the Marciano fight....

Sweet Scientist wrote:...curious...Joe beat Godoy (I know it was ugly), but he (rightly) got the decision...Schmeling actually stopped him...pretty tough to say he looked better against Schmeling than Godoy

......probably Schmeling was a far better fighter than Godoy ?!

Friedie wrote: i think the Louis of the late 40ties and beginning 50ties was not the same good fighter he was in the 30ties, especially after the wins over Carnera and Baer. Probably the worst of his career was the Marciano fight....

His 4 year layoff due to WW II didn't help him any...same as Ali's layoff, Joe's reflexes suffered...never quite the same...