Marciano-Ali: That's Right I'm Back!
Posted: 16 Dec 2006, 14:33
Boxing is always full of arguments. ‘Who was the greatest?’ is the most common of all questions that seems to have an opinion from everybody. In the early 1900’s the answer would have been Jim Jefferies. In the 1920’s it would have been Jack Dempsey. In the 1940’s it was Joe Louis, and so on.
Possibly the bigger argument would have been ‘Would this champion of beaten this one?’
Since the beginning of pugilism, old-timers always stick to their guns that men in their era were tougher than the ‘new guys’ and the younger generations boast that the guys of their time were faster and stronger than the ‘old folks’.
There has been several ‘fantasy fights’ always mentioned down the line, ‘What if, Jack Dempsey fought Joe Louis?’ or ‘What if Larry Holmes fought a prime Muhammad Ali?’
WHAT IF is clearly the biggest argument in boxing. Without the ‘what ifs’ I don’t sincerely think there would really be boxing. And I don’t think without a doubt that the biggest what if of all is the hypothetical question ‘What if Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano fought?’
I think its safe to say that a lot of today’s fans would more than likely pick Ali to win, but when you start to question them about Marciano, you see many a blank expression. Many fans have never seen Marciano, and some have probably never sat through all of Ali’s greatest fights on television.
Someone hears the two words ‘The Greatest’ and they take it simply as that. This is a generation that is sinking further and further in intelligence, as everything is learned by word of mouth and not by investigation and by the naked eye.
To give either man their due, one must look at what they did and who they fought and how they won. Marciano was 49-0 43 by knockout. He has the highest kayo percentage of any heavyweight champion by 88%. He defeated the likes of Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. He overcame a short reach, late start and crude skills to become heavyweight champion in an era that wasn’t the crème of the crop, but was certainly not one of the worst.
A lot of people point out that Charles, Moore and Walcott were ‘past their primes’, but when you truly look at each mans careers you can see that this is not true. Charles was only two years older than Rocky and was the greatest Light Heavyweight of all time and was certainly a solid Heavyweight with both skill, speed and a good punch. Not much of a disparity in age, so the ‘old, passed his prime’ explanation doesn’t quite fit. If anything, Charles was still near his prime when he fought Rocky the first and second time.
Jersey Joe Walcott was 37 years old when he won the title. In my opinion he was cheated a number of times out of title fights, such as with Joe Louis in their first fight and against Charles. Many will say he was ‘too old’ when he fought Marciano, but what many don’t take into consideration is that Walcott was fighting THE greatest fight of his carrer before being knocked out in the 13th round. Ask Joe Louis and others whether or not Joe Walcott got better in age.
Archie Moore was Marciano’s last opponent. He was a solid 10 years older than Rocky, but Moore would go on to hold the Light Heavyweight title an additional decade AFTER his loss to Marciano, and would continue to dabble at Heavyweight until 1963, facing off with Floyd Patterson for the vacant Heavyweight title, and was still ranked remarkably high as a Heavyweight when he fought a young Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali), ironically nobody scoffs at Ali when he fought Archie Moore and he was twenty years younger than he was!
Now Ali fought the best of the best, as did Marciano, in his era. He defeated the likes of Henry Cooper, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry to name a few from the 1960’s to 1975.
There is no question that Ali could have beaten the men in Marciano’s era, even Walcott, Moore and Charles, but not with the ease that everyone believes it would be, they would have been heavily contested fights. But on the other end of the spectrum, Marciano would have beaten the majority of the men Ali did as well.
Could you sincerely see Marciano losing to Cooper? Bonavena? Quarry? I can’t. Outside of Liston, Foreman and Frazier, I see Marciano beating every other man Ali fought with relative ease, just as I see Ali beating the likes of LaStarza, Matthews, Layne, etc.
Now, let’s look at it this way. How would have Walcott, Charles or Moore would have faired with Frazier and Liston? I can honestly say that if Charles could go 15 rounds with Marciano that it wouldn’t be too far out of the question that Charles could have possibly beaten Frazier or at least went the limit with him.
Or how about Walcott against the likes of Liston? Walcott was such an innovator and improved new moves and could so easily adjust himself to any situation, much like Ali could, that I could see Walcott and his ‘Waltz’ out hustle Sonny.
So in this aspect, Marciano is on even ground with Ali.
As far as George Foreman is concerned, I must admit, it is extremely hard for me to envision Marciano being able to withstand George Foreman’s onslaught of thunderous punches. So I don’t think I could bring myself to ever say that Marciano could have beaten George Foreman, although, unlike Joe Frazier, Marciano wasn’t as aggressive, and he made himself a much smaller target than what Joe did, so the only chance Marciano could have had is if he extended Foreman passed the 6th or 7th round.
But…
We are talking Marciano against Ali, not Marciano against Foreman. Now, this might sound crazy, but I do think that Marciano could have beaten the same Ali that fought Foreman in 1974 in Zaire, and here’s the reason why.
I don’t think, after careful review of both fighters careers that Marciano could have knocked out Muhammad Ali. Ali managed to prove between 1970-1975 that he could take a punch against Norton, Foreman and Frazier, among others.
The Ali of 1974 didn’t have the spring in his legs, and against Foreman he showed that. He rested on the ropes for over seven rounds and it wasn’t until the middle of the 8th that he managed to make an affective attack and that was because Foreman was tired and would have eventually dropped dead from exhaustion---like he would do against Jimmy Young in the aftermath of their fight in 1978.
Ali I believe would have had the clear mindset that he couldn’t dance for 15 rounds against Marciano, who would come at him from the first bell to the last. Ali would have ‘rope-a-doped’ for the majority of the rounds, while the ‘Rock’ would have punched and punched at everything in reach of him, especially the arms.
Take a look at what Marciano did to Roland LaStarza in their second fight. Marciano punched and punched his opponents arms until the blood vessels burst and the bones began to crack. LaStarza was once quoted as saying ’10 rounds I could have made with him, but not for 15’ and how he urinated blood after the loss to Marciano.
Joe Frazier himself after seeing this fight on film was once quoted as saying that the ‘rope-a-dope’ wouldn’t have worked on Marciano, that Ali would have had to of done something different, else he would have taken a battering.
Now a prime Marciano versus the Ali of the 1974 Foreman fight, I can’t see beating Marciano, for the simple fact that Marciano was such a tenacious man in training that he never seemed to tire in the ring. Take for example his fight with Ezzard Charles in their first match, there was but only one clinch in the entire 15 rounds they fought.
I see the Marciano-Ali fight going the distance, with close scores, considering Ali could fight off the ropes and his last minute flurries could influence judges.
The way I see it is, if a man who hit almost* as hard as George Foreman and was just as tenacious in his ferocity, could keep punching non-stop (since Marciano was unquestionably the best conditioned heavyweight champion in history) unlike George Foreman, with Ali doing the ‘rope-a-dope’ for the majority of the fight…
I think its pretty well explanatory that Marciano would have been extremely difficult for Ali to beat---had Ali fought the way he did against Foreman. And it does lead me to think he would considering he used the ‘rope-a-dope’ against Joe Frazier in all three of their fights, and all three fights were blood baths, with Frazier winning one of the three, which could have been two out of three, had Frazier came out for the 15th round in Manila, since Ali collapsed after being awarded the victory and said it was the closest thing to death he ever felt.
And Marciano hit harder than Joe, and was better in defense and had the edge in endurance. I think the Ali of the 1960’s could have beaten Marciano, but then again, Ali was never really pressured in his career and learned how to deal with real conflict until he went up against Frazier in 1970---but I don’t think the Ali of 1975 and beyond could have beaten Marciano. 1970-1975 was the perfect Ali, where he still had obtained a lot of his speed, shown that he could take punishment and could adapt to most styles and situations.
With all that being said, Marciano could have beaten the Ali of 1974 had he fought like he did against Foreman, which makes me believe he would have considering how Foreman would cut down the ring, as would Frazier and Marciano.
Prime versus prime? That is a question I am still trying to work on. Myself, as I have said prior, the Ali of 70-75 had it all, minus a few deducted points in speed. But the 70’s is when he truly showed his greatness. The 60’s just showed that he was the fastest man to ever lace the gloves at Heavyweight, but little else, other than his personality.
If the Cleveland Williams fight was Ali at his best, and the first Ezzard Charles fight was Rocky’s best, I think in fairness, these two would have probably put on the greatest fight of all time, and if Marciano didn’t cut to the point where it was stopped, I think it would have been a very, very close draw. A fight that truly could have went either way.
Both men were simply the greatest.
Possibly the bigger argument would have been ‘Would this champion of beaten this one?’
Since the beginning of pugilism, old-timers always stick to their guns that men in their era were tougher than the ‘new guys’ and the younger generations boast that the guys of their time were faster and stronger than the ‘old folks’.
There has been several ‘fantasy fights’ always mentioned down the line, ‘What if, Jack Dempsey fought Joe Louis?’ or ‘What if Larry Holmes fought a prime Muhammad Ali?’
WHAT IF is clearly the biggest argument in boxing. Without the ‘what ifs’ I don’t sincerely think there would really be boxing. And I don’t think without a doubt that the biggest what if of all is the hypothetical question ‘What if Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano fought?’
I think its safe to say that a lot of today’s fans would more than likely pick Ali to win, but when you start to question them about Marciano, you see many a blank expression. Many fans have never seen Marciano, and some have probably never sat through all of Ali’s greatest fights on television.
Someone hears the two words ‘The Greatest’ and they take it simply as that. This is a generation that is sinking further and further in intelligence, as everything is learned by word of mouth and not by investigation and by the naked eye.
To give either man their due, one must look at what they did and who they fought and how they won. Marciano was 49-0 43 by knockout. He has the highest kayo percentage of any heavyweight champion by 88%. He defeated the likes of Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. He overcame a short reach, late start and crude skills to become heavyweight champion in an era that wasn’t the crème of the crop, but was certainly not one of the worst.
A lot of people point out that Charles, Moore and Walcott were ‘past their primes’, but when you truly look at each mans careers you can see that this is not true. Charles was only two years older than Rocky and was the greatest Light Heavyweight of all time and was certainly a solid Heavyweight with both skill, speed and a good punch. Not much of a disparity in age, so the ‘old, passed his prime’ explanation doesn’t quite fit. If anything, Charles was still near his prime when he fought Rocky the first and second time.
Jersey Joe Walcott was 37 years old when he won the title. In my opinion he was cheated a number of times out of title fights, such as with Joe Louis in their first fight and against Charles. Many will say he was ‘too old’ when he fought Marciano, but what many don’t take into consideration is that Walcott was fighting THE greatest fight of his carrer before being knocked out in the 13th round. Ask Joe Louis and others whether or not Joe Walcott got better in age.
Archie Moore was Marciano’s last opponent. He was a solid 10 years older than Rocky, but Moore would go on to hold the Light Heavyweight title an additional decade AFTER his loss to Marciano, and would continue to dabble at Heavyweight until 1963, facing off with Floyd Patterson for the vacant Heavyweight title, and was still ranked remarkably high as a Heavyweight when he fought a young Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali), ironically nobody scoffs at Ali when he fought Archie Moore and he was twenty years younger than he was!
Now Ali fought the best of the best, as did Marciano, in his era. He defeated the likes of Henry Cooper, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry to name a few from the 1960’s to 1975.
There is no question that Ali could have beaten the men in Marciano’s era, even Walcott, Moore and Charles, but not with the ease that everyone believes it would be, they would have been heavily contested fights. But on the other end of the spectrum, Marciano would have beaten the majority of the men Ali did as well.
Could you sincerely see Marciano losing to Cooper? Bonavena? Quarry? I can’t. Outside of Liston, Foreman and Frazier, I see Marciano beating every other man Ali fought with relative ease, just as I see Ali beating the likes of LaStarza, Matthews, Layne, etc.
Now, let’s look at it this way. How would have Walcott, Charles or Moore would have faired with Frazier and Liston? I can honestly say that if Charles could go 15 rounds with Marciano that it wouldn’t be too far out of the question that Charles could have possibly beaten Frazier or at least went the limit with him.
Or how about Walcott against the likes of Liston? Walcott was such an innovator and improved new moves and could so easily adjust himself to any situation, much like Ali could, that I could see Walcott and his ‘Waltz’ out hustle Sonny.
So in this aspect, Marciano is on even ground with Ali.
As far as George Foreman is concerned, I must admit, it is extremely hard for me to envision Marciano being able to withstand George Foreman’s onslaught of thunderous punches. So I don’t think I could bring myself to ever say that Marciano could have beaten George Foreman, although, unlike Joe Frazier, Marciano wasn’t as aggressive, and he made himself a much smaller target than what Joe did, so the only chance Marciano could have had is if he extended Foreman passed the 6th or 7th round.
But…
We are talking Marciano against Ali, not Marciano against Foreman. Now, this might sound crazy, but I do think that Marciano could have beaten the same Ali that fought Foreman in 1974 in Zaire, and here’s the reason why.
I don’t think, after careful review of both fighters careers that Marciano could have knocked out Muhammad Ali. Ali managed to prove between 1970-1975 that he could take a punch against Norton, Foreman and Frazier, among others.
The Ali of 1974 didn’t have the spring in his legs, and against Foreman he showed that. He rested on the ropes for over seven rounds and it wasn’t until the middle of the 8th that he managed to make an affective attack and that was because Foreman was tired and would have eventually dropped dead from exhaustion---like he would do against Jimmy Young in the aftermath of their fight in 1978.
Ali I believe would have had the clear mindset that he couldn’t dance for 15 rounds against Marciano, who would come at him from the first bell to the last. Ali would have ‘rope-a-doped’ for the majority of the rounds, while the ‘Rock’ would have punched and punched at everything in reach of him, especially the arms.
Take a look at what Marciano did to Roland LaStarza in their second fight. Marciano punched and punched his opponents arms until the blood vessels burst and the bones began to crack. LaStarza was once quoted as saying ’10 rounds I could have made with him, but not for 15’ and how he urinated blood after the loss to Marciano.
Joe Frazier himself after seeing this fight on film was once quoted as saying that the ‘rope-a-dope’ wouldn’t have worked on Marciano, that Ali would have had to of done something different, else he would have taken a battering.
Now a prime Marciano versus the Ali of the 1974 Foreman fight, I can’t see beating Marciano, for the simple fact that Marciano was such a tenacious man in training that he never seemed to tire in the ring. Take for example his fight with Ezzard Charles in their first match, there was but only one clinch in the entire 15 rounds they fought.
I see the Marciano-Ali fight going the distance, with close scores, considering Ali could fight off the ropes and his last minute flurries could influence judges.
The way I see it is, if a man who hit almost* as hard as George Foreman and was just as tenacious in his ferocity, could keep punching non-stop (since Marciano was unquestionably the best conditioned heavyweight champion in history) unlike George Foreman, with Ali doing the ‘rope-a-dope’ for the majority of the fight…
I think its pretty well explanatory that Marciano would have been extremely difficult for Ali to beat---had Ali fought the way he did against Foreman. And it does lead me to think he would considering he used the ‘rope-a-dope’ against Joe Frazier in all three of their fights, and all three fights were blood baths, with Frazier winning one of the three, which could have been two out of three, had Frazier came out for the 15th round in Manila, since Ali collapsed after being awarded the victory and said it was the closest thing to death he ever felt.
And Marciano hit harder than Joe, and was better in defense and had the edge in endurance. I think the Ali of the 1960’s could have beaten Marciano, but then again, Ali was never really pressured in his career and learned how to deal with real conflict until he went up against Frazier in 1970---but I don’t think the Ali of 1975 and beyond could have beaten Marciano. 1970-1975 was the perfect Ali, where he still had obtained a lot of his speed, shown that he could take punishment and could adapt to most styles and situations.
With all that being said, Marciano could have beaten the Ali of 1974 had he fought like he did against Foreman, which makes me believe he would have considering how Foreman would cut down the ring, as would Frazier and Marciano.
Prime versus prime? That is a question I am still trying to work on. Myself, as I have said prior, the Ali of 70-75 had it all, minus a few deducted points in speed. But the 70’s is when he truly showed his greatness. The 60’s just showed that he was the fastest man to ever lace the gloves at Heavyweight, but little else, other than his personality.
If the Cleveland Williams fight was Ali at his best, and the first Ezzard Charles fight was Rocky’s best, I think in fairness, these two would have probably put on the greatest fight of all time, and if Marciano didn’t cut to the point where it was stopped, I think it would have been a very, very close draw. A fight that truly could have went either way.
Both men were simply the greatest.
