Jack Dempsey vs The Big Men of Boxing
Posted: 16 Dec 2006, 14:36
Jack Dempsey vs. The Big Men of Boxing
Jack Dempsey would possibly be a Cruiserweight had he fought in today’s era of gigantic heavyweights. It doesn’t take a genius to notice that as time has went on, despite the big men getting bigger and possibly stronger, that they have gotten more lackluster in their performances and in physical health, where they’re sucking wind after four rounds.
Jack Dempsey was nicknamed ‘The Giant Killer’ after his kayo victory, in today’s standards it would have been a technical knock out, over then Heavyweight champion Jess Willard who was not only the winner of the ‘Great White Hope’ tournament and defeated the great Jack Johnson in Havana, Cuba he was also an immense 6’6” and weighed around 235 pounds.
Dempsey’s battering of Willard, along with knockouts over other giants of the time, such as Fred Fulton and Carl Morris and eventually his 2nd round kayo over ‘The Wild Bull of the Pampas’ Luis Angel Firpo, catapulted his career and made him a larger than life superstar.
The argument that most ‘experts’ make today against Dempsey is, of course, his weight. Dempsey usually came into fights at around 185-190 pounds. His height of 6’ also doesn’t help matters these days, considering the average height of the top ten men today is roughly 6’4” and weighing anywhere from 245-325 pounds.
John Ruiz himself stands 6’2” and weighs 245 pounds, and he is considered a small heavyweight in today’s division. Dempsey would be giving up 2” in height and 55 pounds in weight to Ruiz.
But make no mistake; Dempsey has knocked out much larger men than John Ruiz in 2 rounds or less. You could say that the big men of Dempsey’s time were rather one-dimensional and wouldn’t stand up to the big men of today, but let’s take a look back on a few of these big men.
Fred Fulton was 6’5” and 230 pounds. Dempsey knocked out this behemoth in no more or less than 15 seconds of the first round! Fulton wasn’t just another ‘white hope’ as this man had one of the highest kayo percentages in all of boxing history, albeit against limited opposition, although Fulton had defeated such men as Sam Langford twice, one by decision, the other by knock out!
Luis Angel Firpo was 6’2” and 220 pounds. Though the ‘smallest’ of the big men Dempsey fought, this Argentine giant who threw punches without abandon. He was a wild brawler who had over 26 knockouts in 38 fights, 27 percent of those knockouts in two rounds! He came close to stopping Dempsey, but the Manassas Mauler stopped Firpo in what was named the ‘greatest fight of the first half of the century’.
Carl Morris was 6’4” and 240 pounds, a ‘white hope’ who was dropping all-comers and was on his way to title contention, as he wanted to be the man to get Jack Johnson. Morris lost to Jim Flynn, only to beat Flynn in decisions and managed to have a three year unbeaten streak before meeting with Jack Dempsey. He lost all three times, the first by decision, the second by disqualification and the last by a 14 second kayo loss.
Jess Willard, as mentioned before, was a winner of the ‘white hope’ tournament and defeated Jack Johnson by kayo in 26 rounds under the blistering sun in Cuba back in 1914. Willard was a man who knew how to use his immense reach and whenever an opponent got in close he would throw thunderous uppercuts, he is also one of boxing’s forgotten body punchers. Willard was not a popular champion, but at the time nobody believed that he could have been beaten, as he was ‘too big’ and ‘too tall’ and of course, too strong.
Other honorable ‘giants’ that Dempsey beaten were Arthur Pelky (6’2”) and power hitters such as Gunboat Smith. Looking on it, despite the height and weight discrepancies Dempsey had a ridiculously high success rate against powerful and imposing men.
This makes one wonder if Dempsey’s size was actually an asset to him. To punch up, rather than down, has far more power, which would be the case in all of Jack’s fights with men that were bigger than himself. Also with his bobbing and weaving he would have been a far smaller target to hit, and even if he did get hit, the punches would more than likely land on the top of his head, rather than flush.
As a rule most big men are too dependant on their size and reach. If you look at many films, of such men as Primo Carnera, who had an 85” reach, they had serious problems with infighting, as they were too used to keeping their opponents at arms length. Don’t believe me, watch how Max Baer, as sloppy as he was, went right at Carnera, getting passed the reach and knocked the 6’5” Italian behemoth down 11 times in 11 rounds.
This rule generally is the same with most boxers. Ali, despite his fast hands and lateral foot movements, had troubles with guys who came straight at him, such as Joe Frazier who took him to the limit three times.
Another of Dempsey’s strengths was his ability to not only get inside without much harm, but to take a punch from even the largest of foes, and his hand speed. Sometimes it was incredibly hard to tell what punch, whether it be the right or left hand, which caused the knockout, as Dempsey threw punches so quick and in such fast combinations.
Let’s take a look at the ‘big’ men who wore the crown:
Larry Holmes- 20 successful title defenses, 7 year title reign. 6’3” and 220 pounds
Lennox Lewis- 3x Heavyweight champion. 6’5” and 245 pounds, 85” reach
Vitali Klitschko- WBC title holder. 6’8” 245 pounds
Wladimir Klitschko- IBF/WBO title holder. 6’7” 245 pounds
George Foreman- 2x Heavyweight champion. 6’3” 220 pounds, 300 pounds
Primo Carnera- 6’5” 270 pounds, 85” reach
Bonecrusher Smith- 6’4” 240 pounds. WBA title holder
John Tate- 6’4” 230 pounds. WBA title holder
Nicolay Valuev- WBA title holder, 2 title defenses, 7’ and 328 pounds
In my opinion, out of this list of some of the bigger men to hold the title, this is how the fights would have gone, had Dempsey engaged in matches with them:
Primo Carnera vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 6th win for Dempsey
John Tate vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 2nd win for Dempsey
Bonecrusher Smith vs Jack Dempsey- KO 4th win for Dempsey
Nicolay Valuev vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 8th win for Dempsey
Lennox Lewis vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 10th win for Jack Dempsey
Klitschko(s) vs. Jack Dempsey- KO in the middle rounds for Dempsey
It is my belief that Dempsey could have beaten all the men above, and I know there will be a few who will say that Lennox Lewis wouldn’t have lost to Dempsey, but if McCall and Rahman could upset Lewis, and Mike Tyson could buzz Lewis in the 1st round of their fight, its not out of the ordinary, at least in my mind, that Dempsey could upset Lewis as well.
I didn’t place Larry Holmes in the list of knockout victims to Dempsey, because I sincerely do not know how to evaluate a Dempsey-Holmes match-up without it being fair to either man. Dempsey always had problems with the real good boxers of his era, and Holmes is probably second to Ali when it comes to using the jab.
Holmes lost to Tyson, who was very much in the mold of Jack Dempsey, but the difference is time and age. Holmes was 38 years old, inactive for over a year, coming off two losses to Michael Spinks, with no tune up bouts before he met up with Tyson, and Holmes, up til that time, gave Tyson one of the most challenging fights of his career, though it lasted four rounds.
To compare Tyson with Dempsey, though, is ludacris in my mind. Yes they were similar in style, but unlike Dempsey, Tyson didn’t have the mental makeup to keep going in a tough situation. Dempsey proved he could climb up off the floor to win after being knocked down, and could keep moving forward even when hurt. Tyson proved neither of this in his entire pugilistic career.
Tyson had the edge in power, but then again, if Tyson struggled with Bonecrusher Smith, who, in my mind, was on the level with Fulton and Morris in terms of overall worth and ability. Tyson just wasn’t facing off with legit fighters, at least real challenging opponents.
Holmes was a master boxer, tough as nails, could climb up off the floor to win, and is vastly under-rated as a Heavyweight champion. Yes Holmes fought in a sinfully weak era defending his title against the likes of Scott LeDoux and Scott Frank, among others, but you can’t look passed 20 title defenses and his masterful performances and skills.
In terms of ability I place Holmes almost up there with Muhammad Ali. Dempsey vs. Holmes would have been heavily contested, but as much as I like Dempsey, I just can’t see him beating Larry Holmes. It would have went the distance, but Holmes is definitely better than Gene Tunney, and certainly better than any other tactician in Dempsey’s time.
Yes, Dempsey was passed his prime and inactive when he fought Gene Tunney, but we ain’t talking Light Heavyweights in their primes facing off with burned out Heavyweights, but if Dempsey could drop a prime Tunney in their second fight, and both of them go the distance in heavily contested fights, then I just can’t say Tunney could be better than Holmes who beat the likes of Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers (twice) and 18 other fighters near or at there primes, even when he was on the downside.
Even at that, Dempsey, in my mind, is still the giant killer, as he could have beaten every other big man in heavyweight history, minus Holmes, for they either lacked the ability or the real stuff that makes fighters truly great: the heart and determination of a ‘never say die!’ attitude.
Jack Dempsey would possibly be a Cruiserweight had he fought in today’s era of gigantic heavyweights. It doesn’t take a genius to notice that as time has went on, despite the big men getting bigger and possibly stronger, that they have gotten more lackluster in their performances and in physical health, where they’re sucking wind after four rounds.
Jack Dempsey was nicknamed ‘The Giant Killer’ after his kayo victory, in today’s standards it would have been a technical knock out, over then Heavyweight champion Jess Willard who was not only the winner of the ‘Great White Hope’ tournament and defeated the great Jack Johnson in Havana, Cuba he was also an immense 6’6” and weighed around 235 pounds.
Dempsey’s battering of Willard, along with knockouts over other giants of the time, such as Fred Fulton and Carl Morris and eventually his 2nd round kayo over ‘The Wild Bull of the Pampas’ Luis Angel Firpo, catapulted his career and made him a larger than life superstar.
The argument that most ‘experts’ make today against Dempsey is, of course, his weight. Dempsey usually came into fights at around 185-190 pounds. His height of 6’ also doesn’t help matters these days, considering the average height of the top ten men today is roughly 6’4” and weighing anywhere from 245-325 pounds.
John Ruiz himself stands 6’2” and weighs 245 pounds, and he is considered a small heavyweight in today’s division. Dempsey would be giving up 2” in height and 55 pounds in weight to Ruiz.
But make no mistake; Dempsey has knocked out much larger men than John Ruiz in 2 rounds or less. You could say that the big men of Dempsey’s time were rather one-dimensional and wouldn’t stand up to the big men of today, but let’s take a look back on a few of these big men.
Fred Fulton was 6’5” and 230 pounds. Dempsey knocked out this behemoth in no more or less than 15 seconds of the first round! Fulton wasn’t just another ‘white hope’ as this man had one of the highest kayo percentages in all of boxing history, albeit against limited opposition, although Fulton had defeated such men as Sam Langford twice, one by decision, the other by knock out!
Luis Angel Firpo was 6’2” and 220 pounds. Though the ‘smallest’ of the big men Dempsey fought, this Argentine giant who threw punches without abandon. He was a wild brawler who had over 26 knockouts in 38 fights, 27 percent of those knockouts in two rounds! He came close to stopping Dempsey, but the Manassas Mauler stopped Firpo in what was named the ‘greatest fight of the first half of the century’.
Carl Morris was 6’4” and 240 pounds, a ‘white hope’ who was dropping all-comers and was on his way to title contention, as he wanted to be the man to get Jack Johnson. Morris lost to Jim Flynn, only to beat Flynn in decisions and managed to have a three year unbeaten streak before meeting with Jack Dempsey. He lost all three times, the first by decision, the second by disqualification and the last by a 14 second kayo loss.
Jess Willard, as mentioned before, was a winner of the ‘white hope’ tournament and defeated Jack Johnson by kayo in 26 rounds under the blistering sun in Cuba back in 1914. Willard was a man who knew how to use his immense reach and whenever an opponent got in close he would throw thunderous uppercuts, he is also one of boxing’s forgotten body punchers. Willard was not a popular champion, but at the time nobody believed that he could have been beaten, as he was ‘too big’ and ‘too tall’ and of course, too strong.
Other honorable ‘giants’ that Dempsey beaten were Arthur Pelky (6’2”) and power hitters such as Gunboat Smith. Looking on it, despite the height and weight discrepancies Dempsey had a ridiculously high success rate against powerful and imposing men.
This makes one wonder if Dempsey’s size was actually an asset to him. To punch up, rather than down, has far more power, which would be the case in all of Jack’s fights with men that were bigger than himself. Also with his bobbing and weaving he would have been a far smaller target to hit, and even if he did get hit, the punches would more than likely land on the top of his head, rather than flush.
As a rule most big men are too dependant on their size and reach. If you look at many films, of such men as Primo Carnera, who had an 85” reach, they had serious problems with infighting, as they were too used to keeping their opponents at arms length. Don’t believe me, watch how Max Baer, as sloppy as he was, went right at Carnera, getting passed the reach and knocked the 6’5” Italian behemoth down 11 times in 11 rounds.
This rule generally is the same with most boxers. Ali, despite his fast hands and lateral foot movements, had troubles with guys who came straight at him, such as Joe Frazier who took him to the limit three times.
Another of Dempsey’s strengths was his ability to not only get inside without much harm, but to take a punch from even the largest of foes, and his hand speed. Sometimes it was incredibly hard to tell what punch, whether it be the right or left hand, which caused the knockout, as Dempsey threw punches so quick and in such fast combinations.
Let’s take a look at the ‘big’ men who wore the crown:
Larry Holmes- 20 successful title defenses, 7 year title reign. 6’3” and 220 pounds
Lennox Lewis- 3x Heavyweight champion. 6’5” and 245 pounds, 85” reach
Vitali Klitschko- WBC title holder. 6’8” 245 pounds
Wladimir Klitschko- IBF/WBO title holder. 6’7” 245 pounds
George Foreman- 2x Heavyweight champion. 6’3” 220 pounds, 300 pounds
Primo Carnera- 6’5” 270 pounds, 85” reach
Bonecrusher Smith- 6’4” 240 pounds. WBA title holder
John Tate- 6’4” 230 pounds. WBA title holder
Nicolay Valuev- WBA title holder, 2 title defenses, 7’ and 328 pounds
In my opinion, out of this list of some of the bigger men to hold the title, this is how the fights would have gone, had Dempsey engaged in matches with them:
Primo Carnera vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 6th win for Dempsey
John Tate vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 2nd win for Dempsey
Bonecrusher Smith vs Jack Dempsey- KO 4th win for Dempsey
Nicolay Valuev vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 8th win for Dempsey
Lennox Lewis vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 10th win for Jack Dempsey
Klitschko(s) vs. Jack Dempsey- KO in the middle rounds for Dempsey
It is my belief that Dempsey could have beaten all the men above, and I know there will be a few who will say that Lennox Lewis wouldn’t have lost to Dempsey, but if McCall and Rahman could upset Lewis, and Mike Tyson could buzz Lewis in the 1st round of their fight, its not out of the ordinary, at least in my mind, that Dempsey could upset Lewis as well.
I didn’t place Larry Holmes in the list of knockout victims to Dempsey, because I sincerely do not know how to evaluate a Dempsey-Holmes match-up without it being fair to either man. Dempsey always had problems with the real good boxers of his era, and Holmes is probably second to Ali when it comes to using the jab.
Holmes lost to Tyson, who was very much in the mold of Jack Dempsey, but the difference is time and age. Holmes was 38 years old, inactive for over a year, coming off two losses to Michael Spinks, with no tune up bouts before he met up with Tyson, and Holmes, up til that time, gave Tyson one of the most challenging fights of his career, though it lasted four rounds.
To compare Tyson with Dempsey, though, is ludacris in my mind. Yes they were similar in style, but unlike Dempsey, Tyson didn’t have the mental makeup to keep going in a tough situation. Dempsey proved he could climb up off the floor to win after being knocked down, and could keep moving forward even when hurt. Tyson proved neither of this in his entire pugilistic career.
Tyson had the edge in power, but then again, if Tyson struggled with Bonecrusher Smith, who, in my mind, was on the level with Fulton and Morris in terms of overall worth and ability. Tyson just wasn’t facing off with legit fighters, at least real challenging opponents.
Holmes was a master boxer, tough as nails, could climb up off the floor to win, and is vastly under-rated as a Heavyweight champion. Yes Holmes fought in a sinfully weak era defending his title against the likes of Scott LeDoux and Scott Frank, among others, but you can’t look passed 20 title defenses and his masterful performances and skills.
In terms of ability I place Holmes almost up there with Muhammad Ali. Dempsey vs. Holmes would have been heavily contested, but as much as I like Dempsey, I just can’t see him beating Larry Holmes. It would have went the distance, but Holmes is definitely better than Gene Tunney, and certainly better than any other tactician in Dempsey’s time.
Yes, Dempsey was passed his prime and inactive when he fought Gene Tunney, but we ain’t talking Light Heavyweights in their primes facing off with burned out Heavyweights, but if Dempsey could drop a prime Tunney in their second fight, and both of them go the distance in heavily contested fights, then I just can’t say Tunney could be better than Holmes who beat the likes of Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers (twice) and 18 other fighters near or at there primes, even when he was on the downside.
Even at that, Dempsey, in my mind, is still the giant killer, as he could have beaten every other big man in heavyweight history, minus Holmes, for they either lacked the ability or the real stuff that makes fighters truly great: the heart and determination of a ‘never say die!’ attitude.
Or how it is relevant anyway