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Danny Williams vs Frank Bruno in their primes
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 13:46
by Heartbreak_Kid79
For the sake of it, primes being Danny Williams of 2002 vs Frank of 1995
Two Big hitters with limited skills.
I take Bruno to KO Danny mid rounds
At least Frank was good enough to demolish the B grade fighters put in front of him, every guy Frank lost to won a championship
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 13:47
by nickd
Bruno wins in 3 or 4 rounds. Williams' chin is not up to it.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 15:11
by Taki...
Bruno would shred Williams with his ramrod jab and stop him in less than 8.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 15:27
by stujones
Even though stats wise Bruno was much better, I think Danny had the edge in natural punch power and speed.
Tough fight to call in my opinion.
I do think Bruno was overated (made no secret of that). I do think his world title attempts were against champions who weren't at the best stage in their career.
Tim Witherspoon - god knows what he was snorting at the time, would go one to lose his title in one round in his next defence.
Mike Tyson - suffering all kinds of issues outside of the ring.
Lennox Lewis - Very green.
Oliver McCall - Loose cannon.
As I said in the other post, I honestly never think we saw the best Danny Williams when he stepped up. To be honest, I'm not sure he ever had the true desire (it was his father who persuaded him to box) which was needed to step up. However, Bruno's WINS are not great - Gerrie Coetzee is the exception, excellent win that was. Yes he won the EBU title, but not against an outstanding champion. Coetzee was Bruno's only win in world class against a "normal" fighter. McCall was such a loose cannon, so hard to predict. Its a crying shame the Bruno vs Mercer match never happend (I'm sure that was part of the reason why the BBC first pulled out of boxing).
Carl Williams and Pierre Coetzer were both on the slide and don't give me Bugner.
Yes, Bruno had the power to hurt Danny, but Danny had the power to hurt Bruno - for me it would be a question of who lands first, and I think a fast Danny would have.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 15:31
by The Blade
stujones wrote:Even though stats wise Bruno was much better, I think Danny had the edge in natural punch power and speed.
Tough fight to call in my opinion.
I do think Bruno was overated (made no secret of that). I do think his world title attempts were against champions who weren't at the best stage in their career.
Tim Witherspoon - god knows what he was snorting at the time, would go one to lose his title in one round in his next defence.
Mike Tyson - suffering all kinds of issues outside of the ring.
A mad assessment. Bruno would have mullered him
Lennox Lewis - Very green.
Oliver McCall - Loose cannon.
As I said in the other post, I honestly never think we saw the best Danny Williams when he stepped up. To be honest, I'm not sure he ever had the true desire (it was his father who persuaded him to box) which was needed to step up. However, Bruno's WINS are not great - Gerrie Coetzee is the exception, excellent win that was. Yes he won the EBU title, but not against an outstanding champion. Coetzee was Bruno's only win in world class against a "normal" fighter. McCall was such a loose cannon, so hard to predict. Its a crying shame the Bruno vs Mercer match never happend (I'm sure that was part of the reason why the BBC first pulled out of boxing).
Carl Williams and Pierre Coetzer were both on the slide and don't give me Bugner.
Yes, Bruno had the power to hurt Danny, but Danny had the power to hurt Bruno - for me it would be a question of who lands first, and I think a fast Danny would have.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 15:32
by The Blade
The Blade wrote:stujones wrote:Even though stats wise Bruno was much better, I think Danny had the edge in natural punch power and speed.
Tough fight to call in my opinion.
I do think Bruno was overated (made no secret of that). I do think his world title attempts were against champions who weren't at the best stage in their career.
Tim Witherspoon - god knows what he was snorting at the time, would go one to lose his title in one round in his next defence.
Mike Tyson - suffering all kinds of issues outside of the ring.
A mad assessment. Bruno would have mullered him
Lennox Lewis - Very green.
Oliver McCall - Loose cannon.
As I said in the other post, I honestly never think we saw the best Danny Williams when he stepped up. To be honest, I'm not sure he ever had the true desire (it was his father who persuaded him to box) which was needed to step up. However, Bruno's WINS are not great - Gerrie Coetzee is the exception, excellent win that was. Yes he won the EBU title, but not against an outstanding champion. Coetzee was Bruno's only win in world class against a "normal" fighter. McCall was such a loose cannon, so hard to predict. Its a crying shame the Bruno vs Mercer match never happend (I'm sure that was part of the reason why the BBC first pulled out of boxing).
Carl Williams and Pierre Coetzer were both on the slide and don't give me Bugner.
Yes, Bruno had the power to hurt Danny, but Danny had the power to hurt Bruno - for me it would be a question of who lands first, and I think a fast Danny would have.
A mad assessment, Bruno would have mullered him.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 15:46
by stujones
The Blade wrote:The Blade wrote:stujones wrote:Even though stats wise Bruno was much better, I think Danny had the edge in natural punch power and speed.
Tough fight to call in my opinion.
I do think Bruno was overated (made no secret of that). I do think his world title attempts were against champions who weren't at the best stage in their career.
Tim Witherspoon - god knows what he was snorting at the time, would go one to lose his title in one round in his next defence.
Mike Tyson - suffering all kinds of issues outside of the ring.
A mad assessment. Bruno would have mullered him
Lennox Lewis - Very green.
Oliver McCall - Loose cannon.
As I said in the other post, I honestly never think we saw the best Danny Williams when he stepped up. To be honest, I'm not sure he ever had the true desire (it was his father who persuaded him to box) which was needed to step up. However, Bruno's WINS are not great - Gerrie Coetzee is the exception, excellent win that was. Yes he won the EBU title, but not against an outstanding champion. Coetzee was Bruno's only win in world class against a "normal" fighter. McCall was such a loose cannon, so hard to predict. Its a crying shame the Bruno vs Mercer match never happend (I'm sure that was part of the reason why the BBC first pulled out of boxing).
Carl Williams and Pierre Coetzer were both on the slide and don't give me Bugner.
Yes, Bruno had the power to hurt Danny, but Danny had the power to hurt Bruno - for me it would be a question of who lands first, and I think a fast Danny would have.
A mad assessment, Bruno would have mullered him.
As I said, Blade - I don't have ANY facts to make that assessments cause Danny's "prime" was so brief and it was against relatively limited opposition. I say relatively limited cause I don't think Kali Meehan (Danny's best win) is THAT far away from Gerrie Coetzee (Frank's best win). Meehan should have been a world champion, most people thought he beat Brewster handily.
I only wished it would have been the likes of Ruiz who Danny was facing in that purple patch and not Potter, Meehan, Francis II, Sprott 1 and Long.
If you compare Danny's efforts over those last three mentioned (in those "prime" performances) with that of Harrison and Skelton then for me Danny (in that shape) is a level above the two now ranked above him. Harrison laboured to a points win over Julius, and Skelton only managed late stoppages vs Long (in a much closer fight) and Sprott.
I do think the Williams that the millions of terrestial TV viewers have been exposed to is completely different fighter to the one who dismantled Meehan.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 15:57
by nickd
Bruno held his own in world class and won a version of the heavyweight title. Williams got mullered at European level by Sam. Bruno would have handed him his arse every time.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 16:01
by Phenomenal-Nutrition
Looking at it style wise Bruno had the advantage on the outside with his jab and right and Williams probably has the advantage inside/mid range. Remember Bruno outboxed Lennox, Witherspoon, Smith, McCall and hurt Tyson. Bruno had a massive reach and strength advantage. So Bruno would win the early going and would probably land something big on Williams prior to him tiring. Even if he did get tired Williams was never Mr Stamina himself. Williams himself has an outside chance of catching Bruno when tired and stopping him
2 of my favourate British fighters and both could have been so much more on the world scene
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 16:18
by stujones
nickd wrote:Bruno held his own in world class and won a version of the heavyweight title. Williams got mullered at European level by Sam. Bruno would have handed him his arse every time.
But before that (in better shape) beat a guy who should have been a world champion in Kali Meehan.
Yes, Kali Meehan isn't the greatest heavyweight out there as Hasim Rahman proved, but I think he is better than Samil Sam and his record in terms of performance at world class is better. When Sam stepped up he got beaten widely. Both he and Meehan are 0-2 at world class, but Meehan should be 1-1.
As I said, I always assumed I would be in the minority but I think Danny lost only once when is good shape physically (first fight with Julius). If I was saying who achieved the most and who had the better standing then obviously I agree. Bruno certainly never lost a fight through lack of preperation, which his to his utmost credit. However, I just think the Danny who fought those guys I have continually mentioned put up a performance that was of the #2 British Heavyweight of the last 20 years.
Its a bit like comparing Ali with Tyson and saying who would win 1968 Ali or 1988 Mike Tyson. Tyson fought MUCH inferior opposition over the course of his career and got exposed at a later date as a bully with stamina problems. However, was the evident early on - when lived and breathed the sport - no. Was Tyson ever exposed as not liking being in a fight when he was in his pomp - no. Does this mean he always had the problems - or was it just because he was getting old and lost the "fighting guts", could be we will never know for sure. For me, the 1988 version of Mike Tyson was a fighting machine who I would favour over any heavyweight.
Same with Danny, was he chinny and had naturally bad stamina or was it due to his conditioning. Danny was rarely hurt when in good shape and his stamina looked okay vs Francis 1 and Senior. I would suggest that he had good stamina naturally and we will never know about his chin. Its a big pitty it was only the likes of Meehan, Long and Sprott in those fights and not the likes of Sam, Ruiz and Rahman.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 16:20
by nickd
Williams is massively overrated on this forum, really. Domestic level operator who failed miserably at Euro level.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 17:21
by monkeybusiness
Bruno! Bruno! Bruno!
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 18:32
by ebeneezer
stujones wrote:I don't think Kali Meehan (Danny's best win) is THAT far away from Gerrie Coetzee (Frank's best win). Meehan should have been a world champion, most people thought he beat Brewster handily.
I take it you haven't seen Coetzee fight in his prime?
He was light years ahead of Kali Meehan.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 18:55
by glittermonkey
nickd wrote:Williams is massively overrated on this forum, really. Domestic level operator who failed miserably at Euro level.
Yep, seconded.
Bruno would beat Williams comfortably. A shame that Bruno's prime coincided with what, in retrospect, was a fairly strong period in the division. He'd have smashed some of today's world level operators.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 19:48
by stujones
ebeneezer wrote:stujones wrote:I don't think Kali Meehan (Danny's best win) is THAT far away from Gerrie Coetzee (Frank's best win). Meehan should have been a world champion, most people thought he beat Brewster handily.
I take it you haven't seen Coetzee fight in his prime?
He was light years ahead of Kali Meehan.
Prime for prime Coetzee was obviously better, I'm not sure about light years - fights I have seen of Coetzee he was a slow, brave plodder. Although, in my fights I have seen of Coetzee he never won. I believe he did do very well in winning the title vs Dokes.
My point with my previous comment was whether Greg Page took something out of Coetzee. Was Gerrie at his prime when he met Big Frank?
Meehan would go on to basically beat Brewster and should have had the title fairly soon after the Williams fight, yet "prime" Danny is being described a not European class. If you go by today standard and todays champions (very similar to 1995 when Bruno got the title) then Meehan showed some world class creditials. He was capable of beating Brewster who was considered by some leading writers to be the future long term champion. Had Meehan got the decision then he would have surely been ranked #2 or #3 - thats surely got to be considered World class.
Meehan got obliterated by Hasim Rahman, but I still think he is a far more deserving challenger than most of the recent challengers (Beck, Barrett, Briggs, Lyakhovich, McCline, Ibramhigov, Okhello).
I'm not saying that Meehan is better or that close to a prime Coetzer. If Coetzer and Bruno could be transported to this generation I would favour them vs all the champions except Wladimir. Similarly though, if Danny of those four fights could be transported to 2006 - I would favour him against the same 4 champions.
There are 1 or 2 non champions who I would favour over that version of Danny (namely Rahman and Toney), but I would favour them over Frank too.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 20:18
by nickd
Rahman disposed of Meehan easily, thats the real form guide. Brewster was in apalling shape against Meehan.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 20:44
by Taki...
nickd wrote:Williams is massively overrated on this forum, really. Domestic level operator who failed miserably at Euro level.
I'll never forget seeing Williams destroyed by Sinan Samil Sam, for me that is definitive Danny Williams. The fighters Bruno lost to would all be top 5 HW's if they were around now.
Posted: 20 Dec 2006, 20:46
by stujones
nickd wrote:Rahman disposed of Meehan easily, thats the real form guide. Brewster was in apalling shape against Meehan.
And Danny was in appaulling shape for Sam, Klitchsko, Harrison and Skelton.
Brewster was actually lighter vs Meehan than he was vs Lyakhovich, and Kransiqi - aswell as most of his non title fights.
The man was a massive 3 lbs over his weight for Golota (which was his lightest weight since 2000).
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 05:02
by nickd
Forget the weight, have you seen the fight? Brewster is blowing and throws next to nothing for most of the fight.
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 05:13
by Goz
Fair play to Stu for taking on the entire forum over this!!
For what it's worth I don't think Williams would last 3 rounds with a prime Bruno, a few sickeneing jabs and follows ups and he'd be out of there.
This is not nostalgia talking, I often think we go overboard criticising the modern crop of fighters and look at the past through rose-tinted glasses BUT in this case Bruno was genuine world class and Williams isn't even European level.
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 06:27
by jamesmcdonnell
stujones wrote:nickd wrote:Bruno held his own in world class and won a version of the heavyweight title. Williams got mullered at European level by Sam. Bruno would have handed him his arse every time.
But before that (in better shape) beat a guy who should have been a world champion in Kali Meehan.
Yes, Kali Meehan isn't the greatest heavyweight out there as Hasim Rahman proved, but I think he is better than Samil Sam and his record in terms of performance at world class is better. When Sam stepped up he got beaten widely. Both he and Meehan are 0-2 at world class, but Meehan should be 1-1.
As I said, I always assumed I would be in the minority but I think Danny lost only once when is good shape physically (first fight with Julius). If I was saying who achieved the most and who had the better standing then obviously I agree. Bruno certainly never lost a fight through lack of preperation, which his to his utmost credit. However, I just think the Danny who fought those guys I have continually mentioned put up a performance that was of the #2 British Heavyweight of the last 20 years.
Its a bit like comparing Ali with Tyson and saying who would win 1968 Ali or 1988 Mike Tyson. Tyson fought MUCH inferior opposition over the course of his career and got exposed at a later date as a bully with stamina problems. However, was the evident early on - when lived and breathed the sport - no. Was Tyson ever exposed as not liking being in a fight when he was in his pomp - no. Does this mean he always had the problems - or was it just because he was getting old and lost the "fighting guts", could be we will never know for sure. For me, the 1988 version of Mike Tyson was a fighting machine who I would favour over any heavyweight.
Same with Danny, was he chinny and had naturally bad stamina or was it due to his conditioning. Danny was rarely hurt when in good shape and his stamina looked okay vs Francis 1 and Senior. I would suggest that he had good stamina naturally and we will never know about his chin. Its a big pitty it was only the likes of Meehan, Long and Sprott in those fights and not the likes of Sam, Ruiz and Rahman.
Danny was a lot more chinny than Frank. Frank's problem was that when his stamina went, his defence went with it and he had zero survival instincts. He was still on his feet when losing to Tyson in their first fight, and was taking bombs, it wasn't his chin that was bad, it was his ability to defend himself. Every time Bruno was stopped, it was always on his feet with the referee rescuing him from further punishment.
Danny was twatted stupid by Samil Sam, wobbled by Sprott, Keith Long, hardly a murderers row of vaunted punchers. Frank was definetly clobbered by a better class of operator.
Meehan is an ordinary fighter, just because he should have been given the nod and won a title doesn't mean much, todays division is so shit that even Audley is considered a contender after beating up a demotivated, undertrained and shot Danny Williams.
I like Williams, he's a great guy, and a very very brave man, but beat Bruno, cannot see it, he would have been wobbled by Frank's jab, and if he got hit with one of those uppercuts or right crosses, then he'd have been sitting at the right hand of Mohammad.
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 09:22
by overhand_right
Bruno would likely knock him out cold or Williams would keep getting knocked down but getting up til the ref saved him. Williams just doesn't have the chin or confidence to cope with a guy as huge & hard hitting as Bruno coming at him. Bruuuuno (for his obvious faults) is too lightly regarded for my liking. Brunos competition and achievements far outweight Williams, and i love an over achiever way more than a chronic under achiever.
You had to be world class top 10 heavy with serious kayo power & a solid jaw to beat Bruno, and Williams is not.
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 09:29
by overhand_right
Taki... wrote:
The fighters Bruno lost to would all be top 5 HW's if they were around now.
Exactly. Who the f#ck of this sorry crop would survive Witherspoon, Tyson, and Lewis? I know Wlad K is top dog right now but would you really bet the house on him v Bonecrusher Smith, a fella with cement chin & big power, able to throw knockout shots in the last rd...?
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 09:32
by Syntax Error
I would tip Frank on this one, but there is question mark about his stamina.
If Danny could hold out until the mid to late rounds, I might even fancy him to pull it off.
Posted: 21 Dec 2006, 09:35
by THEBUTCH
Bruno wins big time. Far too consistant and wouldn't have a problem finding Danny with that excellent jab, and if Bruno can catch you with the jab then the right cross is going to follow.....