BoxRec

What do you think -- would SRR have had a chance?

Both of these guys are above his pay grade...too big and of course they are the cream of the crop of the LH's. It would not be competitive like the Maxim affair.

I think they were both just too big physically for Robinson, which usually I do not look at size as much of a tangible, well in the heavyweights, but when there is one opf the greatest fighters ever going against another of the greatest fighters ever who is quite a bit larger physically then I do think size would play a big part! Moore and Charles were just too talented to go along with the added size which would just be too much for Robinson's usual overwhelming talent!

BoxBuzz wrote:Both of these guys are above his pay grade...too big and of course they are the cream of the crop of the LH's.

If I'd want to tease you I'd say "Charles yes, Moore no" -- but I guess you got it right.

Btw, SRR Maxim was not only "competitive", SRR dominated most of the fight. I reckon he could have gone a few competitive rounds also with Moore and Charles, but perhaps not 15.

SRR would have put up a tremendous fight for sure, but ultimately, as great as he was, I think he would have been found wanting against Charles & Moore at LHW.

He would have lost on points IMO.

A rampaging Archie Moore tears Robinson a new arsehole by the fourth. Charles spears him all night before bringing out the big guns to stop him in about the tenth round.

pundit wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Both of these guys are above his pay grade...too big and of course they are the cream of the crop of the LH's.

If I'd want to tease you I'd say "Charles yes, Moore no" -- but I guess you got it right.

Btw, SRR Maxim was not only "competitive", SRR dominated most of the fight. I reckon he could have gone a few competitive rounds also with Moore and Charles, but perhaps not 15.

Maxim was holding back because of the heat - in reality, he wasn't doing much work at all. Maxim-Robinson in proper conditions would most likely have been a lot closer, and I'd bet on Maxim winning. Many forget that he was suffering from the heat as well, and wasn't fighting to his maximum ability (whereas Robinson was, which is why he didn't last until the end).

Just to think, there was talk of SRR fighting Floyd Patterson in 1959 for the HW title!

Thankfully it never happened, especially in 1959.

SRR would have been slaughtered by Patterson in his prime, yet alone when he was nearly 40.

>>>A rampaging Archie Moore tears Robinson a new arsehole by the fourth.<<<

Archie Moore was never a rampaging fighter!!! He was a counter-puncher extraordinaire and did his best work when fighters came to him! James Toney has a style that is very similar to what Moore’s was.

A bout between Moore and Robinson would likely be a pretty boring fight overall as both fighters preferred to have an opponent come toward them and being that both were as skilled as it gets it just simply would not be an exciting fight. Due to his size advantage, Moore would eventually wear Robinson down and most likely get a close points decision, but if Moore came in “rampaging” then he would be wild and likely make mistakes that a fighter like Robinson would not allow to get by and very possibly could end up on his ass listening to the referee count, but that would never happen as that just simply was not the kind of fighter that Moore was!

The only time that Moore ever scored any knockouts before the fifth round, which were against true quality opposition, he either done so by just catching the opponent with a quick hook, or straight right and then proceeded to finish the fighter off, or it was done against relatively weak-chinned fighters, but rarely, very rarely did Moore ever stop a solid, quality fighter before the 7th round. Not only did Ray Robinson have a great chin, but he was P4P one of the top three greatest fighters ever, so no fighter under 200 is going to score a quick KO against Robinson, unless they just caught Robinson with a lucky-shot that he never saw coming, but being that it never happened in 200 fights before I certainly do not see it happening against someone like Moore as Robinson would be at the absolute top of his game against Moore and would be a very cautious fighter! Around 90% of the knockouts that Moore scored against actual, true quality opponents were done so after the 7th round. Again, I'll say...Moore was never a rampaging style of fighter.

Moore W15
Charles, possibly by a knockout sometime after the 9th round, but likely a pretty clear points win over 15 rounds.

The only concern I have for Ray is if his great offensive prowess would have carried over, not just into LHW, but against an all-time great LHW in Archie Moore. Sure Ray beat alot ofg MW's and a few LHW's who beat or went the distance against HW contenders, but I don't see it really working for him against Archie---he would have to rely on his other attributes, speed, skill and of course his toughness and endurance.

If Robinson could slap Maxim silly for 13 rounds before becoming so dehydrated that he had to quit, I think he could have a good chance against Archie...but if I could just call it as I see it, compared to both mens careers and what they did and who they beat and how long they remained a threat---I'd pick Archie by a majority decision.

Now, Robinson vs Charles? Forget about it. If Moore couldn't beat Charles, who moved from MW to LHW to eventually gaining the HW title as well, the three times they fought at 175, I don't see Robinson doing any much better than what Moore could do with him. Charles was THE greatest LHW of all time, despite not winning the title. TKO in 8 rounds for Charles.

barry wrote:>>>A rampaging Archie Moore tears Robinson a new arsehole by the fourth.<<<

Archie Moore was never a rampaging fighter!!! He was a counter-puncher extraordinaire and did his best work when fighters came to him! James Toney has a style that is very similar to what Moore’s was.

A bout between Moore and Robinson would likely be a pretty boring fight overall as both fighters preferred to have an opponent come toward them and being that both were as skilled as it gets it just simply would not be an exciting fight. Due to his size advantage, Moore would eventually wear Robinson down and most likely get a close points decision, but if Moore came in “rampaging” then he would be wild and likely make mistakes that a fighter like Robinson would not allow to get by and very possibly could end up on his ass listening to the referee count, but that would never happen as that just simply was not the kind of fighter that Moore was!

The only time that Moore ever scored any knockouts before the fifth round, which were against true quality opposition, he either done so by just catching the opponent with a quick hook, or straight right and then proceeded to finish the fighter off, or it was done against relatively weak-chinned fighters, but rarely, very rarely did Moore ever stop a solid, quality fighter before the 7th round. Not only did Ray Robinson have a great chin, but he was P4P one of the top three greatest fighters ever, so no fighter under 200 is going to score a quick KO against Robinson, unless they just caught Robinson with a lucky-shot that he never saw coming, but being that it never happened in 200 fights before I certainly do not see it happening against someone like Moore as Robinson would be at the absolute top of his game against Moore and would be a very cautious fighter! Around 90% of the knockouts that Moore scored against actual, true quality opponents were done so after the 7th round. Again, I'll say...Moore was never a rampaging style of fighter.

Moore W15
Charles, possibly by a knockout sometime after the 9th round, but likely a pretty clear points win over 15 rounds.

barry, don't ever let anyone tell you that you do not have clear, concise communication skills. But like some rampaging fighters you can be drawn off your game. Stick with these type of precision skills and you would win any battle of words you might ever find yourself in. My observation has been that when you come in bombing you are rendered ordinary. No offense meant here. In fact your ability to put your observations of fighters into understandable terms are at times sheer examples of excellence. If you stay patient in your response the audience will always end up on your side. When you get pissed....well that's another kettle of fish.

Merry Christmas barry

By the way the sheer amount of KO's that Archie had is such an amazing example of a fighter that could read his man to the point of near perfection, take advantage of almost any opportunity, combined with a flawless ability to determine the precise moment when an opponent would be most vulnerable. He was not a one punch destroyer as you have clearly indicated.

Most of his losses were examples of times when he beleived in his own skills too much....it could happen to almost anyone who possessed such skills. Especially with so many events in one lifetime. It's all about that fine leather I've talked about before. There may have been fighters with better skills and a few with better judgement....but very very few with the combination that he possessed of both. Robinson, Ali, Louis had combinations of these critical assets. Ok Ezzard Charles as well.

Merry Christman Jaclem

barry wrote:>>>A rampaging Archie Moore tears Robinson a new arsehole by the fourth.<<<

Archie Moore was never a rampaging fighter!!! He was a counter-puncher extraordinaire and did his best work when fighters came to him! James Toney has a style that is very similar to what Moore’s was.

A bout between Moore and Robinson would likely be a pretty boring fight overall as both fighters preferred to have an opponent come toward them and being that both were as skilled as it gets it just simply would not be an exciting fight. Due to his size advantage, Moore would eventually wear Robinson down and most likely get a close points decision, but if Moore came in “rampaging” then he would be wild and likely make mistakes that a fighter like Robinson would not allow to get by and very possibly could end up on his ass listening to the referee count, but that would never happen as that just simply was not the kind of fighter that Moore was!

The only time that Moore ever scored any knockouts before the fifth round, which were against true quality opposition, he either done so by just catching the opponent with a quick hook, or straight right and then proceeded to finish the fighter off, or it was done against relatively weak-chinned fighters, but rarely, very rarely did Moore ever stop a solid, quality fighter before the 7th round. Not only did Ray Robinson have a great chin, but he was P4P one of the top three greatest fighters ever, so no fighter under 200 is going to score a quick KO against Robinson, unless they just caught Robinson with a lucky-shot that he never saw coming, but being that it never happened in 200 fights before I certainly do not see it happening against someone like Moore as Robinson would be at the absolute top of his game against Moore and would be a very cautious fighter! Around 90% of the knockouts that Moore scored against actual, true quality opponents were done so after the 7th round. Again, I'll say...Moore was never a rampaging style of fighter.

Moore W15
Charles, possibly by a knockout sometime after the 9th round, but likely a pretty clear points win over 15 rounds.

Barry - Moore wasn't always methodical and precise. Often - especially against an opponent he considered inferior - he'd storm them, chop them down and hit the body hard. Moore was much stronger and hard punching - his rib shots would take all the life out of Robinson. I'm not exaggerating when I say Moore was a whole different animal to anyone Robinson ever fought.

Moore UD15 Robinson? That's crap. Nobody Robinson faced carried anywhere near the kind of power Moore would bring to the table - let alone the punching skills. You can repeat all you want about Robinson never being stopped by punches... But he came close a couple of times against much less devastating punchers than Moore. The hardest hitter Robinson fought was perhaps Rocky Graziano - Moore probably hit harder by a significant margin, and not only that, but he was far more accurate, much more varied, and light years ahead in intelligence. It's hardly out of the question to predict a Moore stoppage, especially when he knocked out intelligent movers or cagey veterans like Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Harold Johnson, Jimmy Bivins and Cocoa Kid.

Charles was a great puncher, but how can you give him more of a chance to knock Robinson out than Moore?

.....once again...when robinson was asked if he'd challenge ezzard charles, the sugarman said "hey, do you want to get me killed?" the talk about him fighting moore was just that..talk. both would have kayoed the great srr....when the cobra and the mongoose were at 175.(okay, the robinson quote was a reply about his challenging ezzard for the heasvyweight title, but at that time charles was fighting at around only 180..and maybe a little less. either way, sugar just wasn't heavy enough to handle a really tough light heavy and he knew it.)

as for rocky graziano being the hardest hitter robinson faced....i don't think so. i'm not going to go back and look at the list of his opponents, but one that comes to mind is artie levine. robby came very close to being kayoed in that one.....a long count my well have occured....but robinson recovered to score a knockout.

and a happy new year to you, boxbuzz.....too bad the writings here are free...if you were paid by the word you could afford to send me one magnificent gift to go along with your greeting.

>>>Moore UD15 Robinson? That's crap.<<<

Don't get upset with me just because YOU got it wrong!!! Perhaps if you would actually try to learn about something before speaking up then you won't be made to look as you do now!

Perhaps you could enlightens us and give us all some examples of when Moore just stormed his opponent...

Can you do that?

I doubt it, because likely...you don't know where to look and like usually you will just go off on some other clueless rant that has nothing to do with anything and ignore the challenge to present some actual facts to back your usually very flawed and uninformed comments!!!!

...and "came close to," well that only works in grenades...it has no bearing whatsoever in boxing!!!

While both Moore and Charles would have a physical advantage over Ray I dont see either of them blasting him out, Ray was just too great a fighter to be blasted out, even by those guys... I'd go for both winning by decisions with their extra strength and size being the decider... Charles would be tougher as he was that bit faster than Moore... I can see Ray doing well early on against Moore with his extra speed and then Moores size telling in the last rounds... both would be compoetitive fights imo... even Marcinao wouldnt have been able to simply blast Robinson out...

barry wrote:>>>Moore UD15 Robinson? That's crap.<<<

Don't get upset with me just because YOU got it wrong!!! Perhaps if you would actually try to learn about something before speaking up then you won't be made to look as you do now!

Perhaps you could enlightens us and give us all some examples of when Moore just stormed his opponent...

Can you do that?

I doubt it, because likely...you don't know where to look and like usually you will just go off on some other clueless rant that has nothing to do with anything and ignore the challenge to present some actual facts to back your usually very flawed and uninformed comments!!!!

...and "came close to," well that only works in grenades...it has no bearing whatsoever in boxing!!!

Just stop right now. I haven't been an arsehole with you, so I don't expect the same treatment back. You are not always right, however much you like to think so, and even if you are, that doesn't give you the right to bombard me with exlamation marks. Now listen:

Around 75 of Moore's knockouts occured within the first four rounds - roughly the time in which I would expect Moore to take Robinson out. Don't even try to make it sound like Moore was a slow starter, because he wasn't. Moore would be the far bigger man (Robinson was naturally 147-154lbs, Moore was 175-180lbs) in this fight, contain by far the most power, and would possess all the same skills and speed of the smaller man. Quite simply, it's a small legend being put in with a much bigger legend. Imagine Willie Pep being thrown in with Thomas Hearns.

silkov wrote:While both Moore and Charles would have a physical advantage over Ray I dont see either of them blasting him out, Ray was just too great a fighter to be blasted out, even by those guys... I'd go for both winning by decisions with their extra strength and size being the decider... Charles would be tougher as he was that bit faster than Moore... I can see Ray doing well early on against Moore with his extra speed and then Moores size telling in the last rounds... both would be compoetitive fights imo... even Marcinao wouldnt have been able to simply blast Robinson out...

While both Moore and Charles would have a physical advantage over Ray I dont see either of them blasting him out, Ray was just too great a fighter to be blasted out, even by those guys

We all thought the same about Roberto Duran. Unfortunately, these things happen. Both Moore and Charles was much, much better fighters than Robinson ever faced.

I can see Ray doing well early on against Moore with his extra speed

I'm not sure if you've ever boxed, Silkov, but I have - often against much bigger opponents - and let me tell you, it's very hard to 'outspeed' an opponent who has all the advantages in strength and size, but who also has very good skills. Moore would force Robinson back and stop him committing to his punches, and probably time his jabs. This is Archie Moore, perhaps an even better counter puncher than Robinson, and who had honed his skills for years on the very best opponents. Moore could be pretty quick too, remember, he wasn't exactly slow. Robinson isn't outboxing Moore.

DoubleM wrote:

silkov wrote:While both Moore and Charles would have a physical advantage over Ray I dont see either of them blasting him out, Ray was just too great a fighter to be blasted out, even by those guys... I'd go for both winning by decisions with their extra strength and size being the decider... Charles would be tougher as he was that bit faster than Moore... I can see Ray doing well early on against Moore with his extra speed and then Moores size telling in the last rounds... both would be compoetitive fights imo... even Marcinao wouldnt have been able to simply blast Robinson out...

While both Moore and Charles would have a physical advantage over Ray I dont see either of them blasting him out, Ray was just too great a fighter to be blasted out, even by those guys

We all thought the same about Roberto Duran. Unfortunately, these things happen. Both Moore and Charles was much, much better fighters than Robinson ever faced.

I can see Ray doing well early on against Moore with his extra speed

I'm not sure if you've ever boxed, Silkov, but I have - often against much bigger opponents - and let me tell you, it's very hard to 'outspeed' an opponent who has all the advantages in strength and size, but who also has very good skills. Moore would force Robinson back and stop him committing to his punches, and probably time his jabs. This is Archie Moore, perhaps an even better counter puncher than Robinson, and who had honed his skills for years on the very best opponents. Moore could be pretty quick too, remember, he wasn't exactly slow. Robinson isn't outboxing Moore.

I've had plenty of fights and actually used to like fighting the bigger guys because they were a tad slower... I know Moore wasnt 'slow' but after seeing plenty of both of them I'm sure Ray was faster and also fought at a faster pace and threw more punches... to discount Rays chances against Moore is wrong I feel, especially as Moore often had trouble with faster fighters... this is why Patterson beat him so easily, it was his speed that allowed him to overwhelm Moore... its also why Moore had such a lot of trouble with Charles who was very simular in style to Ray...
We can agree to disagree but I still think Ray would have given Moore a run for his money and be competitve against Charles... the chances are he'd lose to both but not by ko....

Silkov, Silkov...

... There was much more to Patterson-Moore than just a speed difference. If that were so, then yes, Moore may have been troubled by Robinson. But no - Patterson had Robinson's speed, as well as lots more strength and lots more power. He had agility and youth on Moore, and he was very skilled in his own right. The only thing Moore had on Patterson was experience and guile... Against Robinson he'd have strength, experience, power, stamina (big men wear out small men), and every bit of skill that Robinson had. Had Robinson came in at a plump 175lbs, you can bet Moore would have the agility advantage as well, and perhaps also speed.

Let's face it - Moore wouldn't have any trouble beating a moving Robinson. Jimmy Bivins, Harold Johnson, Eddie Booker, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, Ezzard Charles, Lloyd Marshall - Moore had seen every bit of skill that was ever taught in the gym, and he'd picked most of it up along the way and used it for himself. He faced all those craftsmen before he even reached his prime infact. A past-prime Robinson would bring nothing to the table that Moore hadn't seen before.
In contrast, Moore would be bringing to the table skills that Robinson had never encountered as a professional - nobody he fought was as skilled as Moore, let alone as big or powerful.

Truth is, Robinson has nothing on Moore (I won't debate Charles as well, too much to talk about), not even experience. If Robinson is coming in at 175lbs, I doubt he will even be the faster man.

DoubleM wrote:Silkov, Silkov...

... There was much more to Patterson-Moore than just a speed difference. If that were so, then yes, Moore may have been troubled by Robinson. But no - Patterson had Robinson's speed, as well as lots more strength and lots more power. He had agility and youth on Moore, and he was very skilled in his own right. The only thing Moore had on Patterson was experience and guile... Against Robinson he'd have strength, experience, power, stamina (big men wear out small men), and every bit of skill that Robinson had. Had Robinson came in at a plump 175lbs, you can bet Moore would have the agility advantage as well, and perhaps also speed.

Let's face it - Moore wouldn't have any trouble beating a moving Robinson. Jimmy Bivins, Harold Johnson, Eddie Booker, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, Ezzard Charles, Lloyd Marshall - Moore had seen every bit of skill that was ever taught in the gym, and he'd picked most of it up along the way and used it for himself. He faced all those craftsmen before he even reached his prime infact. A past-prime Robinson would bring nothing to the table that Moore hadn't seen before.
In contrast, Moore would be bringing to the table skills that Robinson had never encountered as a professional - nobody he fought was as skilled as Moore, let alone as big or powerful.

Truth is, Robinson has nothing on Moore (I won't debate Charles as well, too much to talk about), not even experience. If Robinson is coming in at 175lbs, I doubt he will even be the faster man.

I think you're far too stuck on your own ideas and need to open up to other views a little more!..., to say that Robinson wouldnt bother Moore at all is just plain silly, and to say he never fought anyone close to Moore is also silly, ....and Ray would never come in at 175 he'd be 157-162 at the most like he was against Maxim... remember we're talking about prime Robinson here... you only need to look through Archies career and its evident that the speedy fighters always bothered him, also if you look at Robinson vs Maxim and Moores fights against Maxim there is little to seperate Robinsons and Moores performance against Joey... to simply dismiss Rays chances against Moore like you are is plain wrong, how many fights have you seen of each of them?.... cause you seem to be avoiding the evidence of their respective careers I'm afraid!...

A couple of tasks for you, Silkov:

1/ Name a fighter or some fighters who Robinson beat that were as good as, or even close to, Archie Moore. Not in a pound-for-pound sense, but actual, direct abilities (since we are matching them up, not comparing them relative to their weights).

2/ Name some fighters who troubled Moore because of speed.

Now, on this note:

remember we're talking about prime Robinson here

Well no, since Robinson was prime at 158-162, but I know what you mean - we're also talking about a prime Archie Moore, who was naturally about thirty pounds heavier and was a legend in his own right.

also if you look at Robinson vs Maxim and Moores fights against Maxim there is little to seperate Robinsons and Moores performance against Joey

Except Robinson lost in their encounter, whereas Moore beat Maxim three out of times? I have to let you know, if you didn't already, that Maxim hardly even fought against Robinson because of the heat. Robinson wasn't the only one being affected, Maxim was holding back a lot. He fought better against Moore on the occasions they met.

how many fights have you seen of each of them?

Oh, I've seen a lot, believe me. The thing is, I rate Robinson my #1 welterweight, but Moore my #2 light heavyweight. It's a case of a smaller legend losing to a bigger legend. As I said before, imagine Pep-Hearns.

I think Robinson would of been a pretty good Light Heavyweight.

Halfamill wrote:I think Robinson would of been a pretty good Light Heavyweight.

Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

DoubleM wrote:

Halfamill wrote:I think Robinson would of been a pretty good Light Heavyweight.

Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

And youre getting carried away with Archie Moore, ....As for Robinson having done nothing to suggest that he'd have been a good light-heavy how about him schooling Maxim for about 12 rounds??... have you even seen the fight?? he would have won had it not been for the freakish heat that night. As I already said Moores and Robinsons performances against Maxim were very close, if anything Maxim gave Moore more trouble than he gave Ray!... watch the fights!... The reasons Ray never tried moving up again was 1. he didnt have any trouble making 160 right to the end of his career and 2. the Middleweight title was a more lucrative championship and Ray figured he would get better and bigger money matches at 160 than at 175. ....and as for tasks, how about you telling me when Moore blasted out somebody of comparable ability to a peak Ray Robinson... I'd really like to hear this. Also you still havent answered my question about exactly how many fights you've actually seen of Moore and Robinson!?? 8)
I've noticed your technique of avoiding replying to certain questions (such as have you seen these guys fight??) and I'm afraid it shows major flaws in your argument...

silkov......are you going on the record to say Robinson would likely beat Moore? I know you watch fights so unlike the person you are pointing a finger at I know that's not your deficit. However with as many fights as I know you watch for you to come out claiming SRR as the likely winner.....I would suggest rewatching these fights....but wear thicker glasses.


oh.....and I dont see him getting carried away regarding Moore...... he was a pretty good fighter as I recall.