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The Hurricane

Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 20:34
by Dentsun4228
Saw the movie for the first time last week. Great performance by Denzel Washington...Not really a boxing movie, but some great fight scenes. I had no idea that Hurricane Carter was such a militant guy back in the 60's and 70's. Earned him a lot of enemies...I saw him on TV a couple of years back hosting Friday night fights. He still looked good, but I haven't heard much about him lately except that he lives in Canada now. If you haven't seen this movie yet, I highly recommend it.

Also check out the documentary on Emile Griffith which probes allegations of homosexuality and the tragic circumstances of the Paret fight.

Posted: 01 Feb 2007, 03:18
by Dentsun4228
Decagon wrote:I hope he stays in Canada. I wouldn't want a murderer like him living near my family. His release from prison was a tragedy of justice, and that stupid movie about him is completely inaccurate.
I think you mean a "travesty" of justice...and how was the movie stupid or inaccurate? Many high-profile celebrities including Ali, Bob Dylan and others fought for his release. Obviously they had good reason to believe in his innocence...the movie says that the State's case was biased, the evidence tainted and the trials unfair. Do you disagree with any of that? Sounds like you may be reacting to the fact that he was a known black nationalist who expressed some antipathy towards whites...If that was true, who cares? It might even be quite justifiable based on how he was treated by the police and the criminal justice system. Fact is, he was eventually found not guilty by the Supreme court. Seems like a happy, if long overdue outcome if you ask me.

Posted: 01 Feb 2007, 08:48
by KOJOE90
One of the worst Boxing movies aver made. It was so full of half truths and just plain fantasy.

I'm glad Joey Giardello took the film makers to court and won a big payout.

Awfull film. I highly recommend Boxing fans avoide it.

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 07:12
by 'Rocket'Rigby
The whole story of Rubin Carter is much different to the film, Carter is portrayed as being a young hero, military hero and a boxer who's prime was cut down early.

The real truth is, Carter was a thug and petty thief. Carter had been charged with assault (with a glass bottle to the head) and robbery of an older male, resulting in Carter being sent to a juvenile correction facility.
In and out of trouble Carter decided to escape by joining the army, he was court martialed 4 times and eventually deemed un-fit for military duty.

Carter changed the glass bottles for fists and was recgonised with having some potential. But again the film portrays him to be better that he actually was. The noteable scene where the decision goes against him was against a good, quality fighter: Joey Giardellio (who he/or his family sued the makers of the film successfully) as the film created the impression the result was cast with racial motives where as Giardello easily handled and beat 'The Hurricane' hands down.

Don't even start me off on the evidence against him for the triple murders, that's a whole much larger story and let's just say they got it the right first time.

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 07:58
by Ezzard
As I understand it Alan Sugar in his day job as policeman was privy to conversations/evidence that made it obvious to him that the trial was a set up. Although I've never met any of the people involved in the case Ron has always seemed like a stand up guy. It must also be remembered that Ron was putting his professional reputation on the line both as a cop and a ref. Lipton had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I know Ron was a part of Carter's group of sparring partners and built a friendship with the guy...so we have to take that into account...

But as I see it...

Was Carter a bad-ass? Yes
Was he capable of doing the murder? Yes
Did he do it? Maybe...

But the only question that is relevant to his release is:
Did he get a fair trial? No

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 11:53
by 'Rocket'Rigby
Ezzard wrote:But the only question that is relevant to his release is: Did he get a fair trial? No
What could possibley be so unfair to set a triple homicide convict free?

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 12:22
by Ezzard
'Rocket'Rigby wrote:
Ezzard wrote:But the only question that is relevant to his release is: Did he get a fair trial? No
What could possibley be so unfair to set a triple homicide convict free?
Look at the OJ case. It's pretty obvious that he did it but in light of the fact that the police tried to fabricate evidence there was no other ruling that could be made.

Justice is a completely different thing to the law.

re

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 12:53
by barry
Carter is one of the worst scum-bags to ever grace the ring!!! The movie was such bullshit...very little, if any of it was actually true! That's the problem...people watch that load of shit and get the impression that Carter was a tragic figure who suffered because he was black...that's bullshit...he suffered because he is a murdering scumbag and if I were a black individual who really did suffer I would be very, very offended by Carter's lies!!!

For anyone who thinks different the website that Decagon posted

http://www.graphicwitness.com/carter/

tells the correct story...not the made-up Holywood bullshit that some people fall for. Carter is still nothing but a drunken scumbag...a murderer set free.


Dentsun4228---Read over the website that has actual accounts and actual facts about the case instead of relying on a Bob Dylan song and then come back and tell me that you think it was a "travesty" of justice. I've yet to see any of you that have come on here trying to praise Carter who has stuck around to continue the praises after being pointed to the actual facts...will you be different than the rest and come back and annonce that you spoke too soon on the topic, or will you just vanish like the others?

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 15:24
by HomicideHenry
'the number one contender for the middleweight crown...'

Carter wasn't even ranked in the top 10 i dont think when he was sent to prison. He was on a downward spiral after his fight with Giardello. It wasn't no fix, wasn't no boxing travesty. Carter did mess up Giardello's face, but Giardello won fair and square on points, he sucked up the punishment and kept on Carter.

His best was his kayo of Griffith. A win over a HOF is nothing to sneeze at, but then again, and I might be mistaken, but Griffith was on the downside then? It's hard to tell with Griffith, he reinvented himself all the time and made so many good comeback wins after losses. Always redeemed himself.

Rubin Carter the boxer was ferocious, but was just one of many fighters who showed promise in that era. A flash in the pan. Had he never went to prison, there's very little doubt in my mind, that he would have just faded into oblivion.

Rubin Carter the man......is another story altogether.

Posted: 02 Feb 2007, 23:57
by cosand
Well you can go by the movie, the song, you can go by that web sight Berry and Dracagon posted, which was clearly composed by a latent racist nutjob with an axe to grind, you can listen to the AWMs (angry white males) who posted comments here

OR

There are the FACTS

You can read the Judges decision, and see that in a nutshell. The only prosecution witness that placed Carter at the scene of the crime, was a habitual liar who failed a polygraph, that the prosecution committed virtually every habeas corpus violation imaginable, failed to disclose evidence that supported Carter's innocence during discovery, and used prejudicial evidence that played to the most racist tendencies imaginable.

This is why Carter is free today


http://graphicwitness.com/carter/sarokin.html

THE HABEAS CORPUS PETITIONS
The instant petitions for habeas corpus were filed February 13, 1985 by Carter and February 28, 1985 by Artis. The actions
were consolidated in an order dated May 6, 1985. A motion for summary judgment on seven of the petition's twelve grounds
was filed by petitioners on May 25, 1985 and oral argument on the motion was held July 22, 1985, after which the court
received further submissions from counsel.
The petitioners allege:

1. The state violated the requirements of Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83, 10 L. Ed. 2d 215, 83 S. Ct. 1194 (1963) by
failing to disclose the results of a lie detector test given to the state's only "eyewitness".

2. The state violated the Equal Protection and Due Process rights of petitioners by improperly appealing to racial prejudice
during the trial by claiming the killings were motivated by racial [**12] revenge.

3. The jury considered material not introduced as evidence and members of the jury had preexisting racial prejudice.

4. The prosecution misled the defense as to its theory of the case, withheld discovery, improperly cross-examined and unfairly
denigrated defense witnesses.

5. The prosecution violated the Due Process rights of petitioners by exerting improper pressure on certain witnesses to support
a false alibi claim.

6. The prosecution violated the Due Process rights of petitioners by using Bello as a witness despite proof of his "monumental"
untrustworthiness.

7. The prosecution withheld a memorandum in violation of Brady showing how Bello was persuaded to change his mind.

8. The prosecution violated the petitioners' rights to a Speedy Trial by making last-minute presentations at trial of a new theory.

9. The evidence presented at trial did not meet the reasonable doubt standard.

10. The petitioners' Due Process rights were violated because public funds were not made available for investigative and expert
services and because the trial judge did not properly exercise judicial discretion to limit cross examination regarding Carter's
[**13] criminal record.

11. The petition's Due Process rights were violated by the trial judge's bias.

12. The state committed a Brady violation by failing to produce a file by a former investigator in the case.
Petitioners seek summary judgment on Grounds 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8 and 10.
During oral argument, counsel for Petitioner Carter represented that the complaint would be amended to exclude Ground 12,
the identical issue rejected by the Appellate Division on July 2, 1985, so that there would be no dispute that he had presented
only exhausted claims to his petition. Respondents agreed to the amendment of the complaint.
Petitioner Artis has not amended his petition to delete Ground 12, and argues that technical exhaustion of his state remedies is
unnecessary because the corrective process in the New Jersey state courts is so [*538] clearly deficient as to render futile any
efforts to obtain relief. That issue is discussed below. (See: Exhaustion of State Remedies, infra).

re

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 03:42
by barry
>>>you can listen to the AWMs (angry white males) who posted comments here<<<

Exactly what AWMs are you speaking of?

re

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 04:01
by barry
I'm part American Indian!!

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 11:40
by cosand
barry



Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 7002
Location: North Tazewell, Virginia
Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: re

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>you can listen to the AWMs (angry white males) who posted comments here<<<

Exactly what AWMs are you speaking of?
It was a blanket generalization (my bad...maybe)
I don't care if you are half Mongolian and half Kurd, it is undeniable that whenever a subject like this comes up, the paranoia and inverted objectivity of SOME white males who are of the belief that any positive reference to a person of color, who also happens to have had human shortcomings, is somehow contributing to the demise of the Caucasian race, drips from the walls.
No matter what race of ethnicity it comes from, the whole " Counter PC culture " thing is far worse then any unfairness that comes from those who are accused of being "overly sensitive to racial issues".
Carter was a thug, and possibly criminal, but in this case, his guilt was at best, in question and anyone who denies that his trial was a travesty of justice, based on race, has some major issues with reality.
It is ok to acknowledge that YES, white people have, and still do oppress and subjugate people of color....No really...it is
It doesn’t make you a self-loathing folk singing fuzzy headed PC liberal, it just shows you have a grasp of reality

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 11:42
by KOJOE90
I'm white but not angry just stating my opinion.

Lets keep this thread on Carter and related issues and not the ethnic or cultural backgrounds of Boxrec members.

THANK YOU.

re

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 12:11
by barry
Well considering that one of my favorite area's of boxing to research is the pre-1940 African-american fighter claims of racial prejudice fall on deaf ears! Besides...anyone who could try to rally for that scumbag Carter, well, all of their dogs are not barking...regardless of whether they are black, white, red, pink, orange, purple, or whatever and it's bordering on retarded to attempt to bring race into the Carter issue. Carter was a violent, murdering scumbag...nothing more, nothing less and there is a ton of evidence to back that statement up, but you can listen to an acid-eating rendition of Carter from Dylan if you want...I believe that I will stick to the actual facts of the issue instead of fantasy!!!

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 13:58
by cosand
barry



Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 7003
Location: North Tazewell, Virginia
Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: re

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well considering that one of my favorite area's of boxing to research is the pre-1940 African-american fighter claims of racial prejudice fall on deaf ears! Besides...anyone who could try to rally for that scumbag Carter, well, all of their dogs are not barking...regardless of whether they are black, white, red, pink, orange, purple, or whatever and it's bordering on retarded to attempt to bring race into the Carter issue. Carter was a violent, murdering scumbag...nothing more, nothing less and there is a ton of evidence to back that statement up, but you can listen to an acid-eating rendition of Carter from Dylan if you want...I believe that I will stick to the actual facts of the issue instead of fantasy!!!
I can honestly say i have never listened to Dylan's song all the way through. I don't shape my opinions on folk songs anyway.
The FACT is, that if you want to blame someone for bringing "race" into the issue, blame the prosicution, and the judge who allowed it in the first place. Anyone who knows the facts of the case and can deny that, does not just border on retarded, they have trancended the term
The FACT also is, that a federal judge set aside the conviction, based on the rule of law, sighting the very FACT that race was indeed the motivation, the FACT that the only witness that placed Carter at the scene of the crime, was at best, questionable, and that the state hid eveidence that favored Carter's innocence during discovery
As for Carter being a scumbag....
Newsflash !!!!
The constitution is designed to protect scumbags. Freedom is, and has always been protected on the fringes, NOT in the mainstream.
As your 8th grade social studies teacher should have explianed to you, Not guilty of a certain crime, doesnt always mean "Innocent".
I have to chuckle at the web sight you posted, in contrast with a documantary I saw the other day, which compared the very white child molester and domestic terrorist/murderer David Koresh with Andrew Jackson and Thomas Jefferson.
If institutional racialism were not so unjust, it would almost be funny.
But..I digress

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 17:15
by HomicideHenry
This country of ours (USA) was founded on bullshit to begin with, so don't know why people argue over the Constitution/Judicial System etc. I mean hell, and I may be quoting comedian George Carlin but its the truth:

'The founding fathers wrote that ALL men are created equal, yet all were slave holders. Now thats bullshit!'

The Carter case, despite a helluva lot of evidence against him, was tried as being a case of racial injustice, rather than as a murder case. It was like the OJ Simpson trial. Everybody knew he done it, knew the bastard was a scum bag, but Johnny Cockran (or however its spelled) cried 'Objection! Thats racist to my client!'

The Carter case was held out in a similar order. All evidence said that he had done it, and in the past he had REFUSED to do lie detector tests. It was said that if he could pass the lie detector test he would be released. I mean thats a helluva bargain if you ask me, yet he refused it down. Why? Cus he knows he wouldnt have passed because HE DID IT.

End of story.

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 19:38
by icejack
Did Carter lose in England to a english journey man fighter called Harry Scott?

Posted: 03 Feb 2007, 19:52
by Collins2000
icejack wrote:Did Carter lose in England to a english journey man fighter called Harry Scott?
Yes, won and lost.

I read (in Boxing News, I think) that Micky Duff claimed Carter brought a handgun over in his luggage.

:o

Posted: 04 Feb 2007, 07:52
by KOJOE90
icejack wrote:Did Carter lose in England to a english journey man fighter called Harry Scott?
Yes he won and lost a fight to Liverpools Harry Scott who was more than a journeyman fighter to be fair. Although Carter was on the slide by then possible due to heavy drinking.

re

Posted: 04 Feb 2007, 08:38
by barry
>>>You simply have a poor understanding of the trial, which is based on a popular movie instead of what actually happened.<<<

That's the problem with a lot of clowns that watch the movie!!! They have this romantic Hollywood view that Carter was a heroic/tragic figure when he was nothing more than a common criminal with very violent tendencies, but it's funny that cosand would mention other figures that have nothing to do with anything...what...do you think that white people hold up David Koresh as this innocent/tragic figure...is that why you mention him...LOL? Hell, we think Koresh is even more nuts than Carter. At least Koresh had a mental disability...Carter was/is just an common criminal!!!

As to the documentary you mention where the film-maker tries to compare Koresh with people of respect...well that is no different than you trying to pardon Carter here on the forum...ezxcept that the documentary guy is well known...you, well, you're a nobody, but you and that film-maker no doubt have a lot in common...perhaps you two should meet...LOL!!!

Posted: 04 Feb 2007, 13:30
by zojo

Posted: 08 Feb 2007, 21:10
by Dentsun4228
Seems to me like a lot of people have their minds made up about this. It's hard to read some of these posts because it's like some of the posters have never even CONSIDERED the possibility that they might not know what the heck happened that night. One poster says "why should he receive a fair trial when he was guilty?" or something to that effect. Another poster says: "Everybody knows he was guilty just like OJ". I know I'm paraphrasing but it seems like there are a lot of closed minds on this topic. It's an important point to make because none of us were there at the time. We really don't know what happened. I would venture to say that none of the guys posting on this website are qualified to judge Rubin Carter or comment on his "personal character". In other words, most of you are full of cr@p. If the movie was full of speculation, so are all of you. Who knows if Carter was a hero or a scumbag? It's all a matter of perspective. It was a great movie and it had something to say about the way justice or injustice is prosecuted in America.

Posted: 09 Feb 2007, 08:41
by silkov
Just because the movie stretched things doesnt mean Ruben was guilty of the murders. Rubens never denied that he was a hardcase before he took up boxing, anyone whose read his autobiog can hardly say he's dressing himself up as a saint... but does that make him a murderer?... not in my book, ...many things were fishy about his trail and the fact that he was high profile makes the case for him having been framed. People condemning him here should remember the conditions that coloured people lived in back in the 60s... is it really so far fetched that Ruben was framed??. As it was he still did 25 years, the way some are going on here you'd have thought he'd got out in a few months.
As for the Giardello fight I've read reports of the fight saying that Ruben was robbed, as well as reports saying that it was a fair decision... so to say that it was accepted as a clear win for Joey at the time is wrong. I havent got hold of the fight myself yet but it sounds like the sort of fight where the verdict can go either way depending on whose style/work you like. Giardello was well known to be pratically unbeatable in Philedelphia and was involved in a number of dodgey decisions through his career aside from ducking Dick Tiger for over 2 years after getting a dubious verdict over him... so all these tears over Giardellos sullied honour seem rather ill placed...

Posted: 09 Feb 2007, 10:56
by Ezzard
cosand wrote:Well you can go by the movie, the song, you can go by that web sight Berry and Dracagon posted, which was clearly composed by a latent racist nutjob with an axe to grind, you can listen to the AWMs (angry white males) who posted comments here

OR

There are the FACTS

You can read the Judges decision, and see that in a nutshell. The only prosecution witness that placed Carter at the scene of the crime, was a habitual liar who failed a polygraph, that the prosecution committed virtually every habeas corpus violation imaginable, failed to disclose evidence that supported Carter's innocence during discovery, and used prejudicial evidence that played to the most racist tendencies imaginable.

This is why Carter is free today


http://graphicwitness.com/carter/sarokin.html

THE HABEAS CORPUS PETITIONS
The instant petitions for habeas corpus were filed February 13, 1985 by Carter and February 28, 1985 by Artis. The actions
were consolidated in an order dated May 6, 1985. A motion for summary judgment on seven of the petition's twelve grounds
was filed by petitioners on May 25, 1985 and oral argument on the motion was held July 22, 1985, after which the court
received further submissions from counsel.
The petitioners allege:

1. The state violated the requirements of Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83, 10 L. Ed. 2d 215, 83 S. Ct. 1194 (1963) by
failing to disclose the results of a lie detector test given to the state's only "eyewitness".

2. The state violated the Equal Protection and Due Process rights of petitioners by improperly appealing to racial prejudice
during the trial by claiming the killings were motivated by racial [**12] revenge.

3. The jury considered material not introduced as evidence and members of the jury had preexisting racial prejudice.

4. The prosecution misled the defense as to its theory of the case, withheld discovery, improperly cross-examined and unfairly
denigrated defense witnesses.

5. The prosecution violated the Due Process rights of petitioners by exerting improper pressure on certain witnesses to support
a false alibi claim.

6. The prosecution violated the Due Process rights of petitioners by using Bello as a witness despite proof of his "monumental"
untrustworthiness.

7. The prosecution withheld a memorandum in violation of Brady showing how Bello was persuaded to change his mind.

8. The prosecution violated the petitioners' rights to a Speedy Trial by making last-minute presentations at trial of a new theory.

9. The evidence presented at trial did not meet the reasonable doubt standard.

10. The petitioners' Due Process rights were violated because public funds were not made available for investigative and expert
services and because the trial judge did not properly exercise judicial discretion to limit cross examination regarding Carter's
[**13] criminal record.

11. The petition's Due Process rights were violated by the trial judge's bias.

12. The state committed a Brady violation by failing to produce a file by a former investigator in the case.
Petitioners seek summary judgment on Grounds 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8 and 10.
During oral argument, counsel for Petitioner Carter represented that the complaint would be amended to exclude Ground 12,
the identical issue rejected by the Appellate Division on July 2, 1985, so that there would be no dispute that he had presented
only exhausted claims to his petition. Respondents agreed to the amendment of the complaint.
Petitioner Artis has not amended his petition to delete Ground 12, and argues that technical exhaustion of his state remedies is
unnecessary because the corrective process in the New Jersey state courts is so [*538] clearly deficient as to render futile any
efforts to obtain relief. That issue is discussed below. (See: Exhaustion of State Remedies, infra).
These 12 points sum up the verdict perfectly.