BoxRec

I was after a conclusive answer for the slashed glove in the first Ali/Cooper fight?

I was watching 'Ringside' last night with Bert sugar and George Chuvalo watching the fight.

Whilst having to suck up Sugar's anti British jibes, which I have to say were ok considering the way we are with Henry.

It started with the presenter saying that We(british) take it as some sort of victory that Henry stuck Ali on his arse in the fourth. Sugar responds with ' Yeah the British think Dunkirk was a victory'. Anyway no mention of the U.S turning up two years too late for the war ets.. Anyway I digress.

They were talking of the 10-15 seconds extra time that Dundee was trying to buy to get Ali in shape. For example saying his glove was slashed so they would have to go back to the dressing room to get another pair. Even though he knew there wern't any there in the first place.

10-15 seconds doesn't seem considering and Ali got up easily enough in my opinion.

Is it me or did I dream this?
I thought that Dundee slashed Ali's glove on purpose whilst buying him a wee bit of recooperating(nice pun, thinking about it) time. Knowing full well that Cooper's eye was already seriously damaged. With the slash in the glove, this would be popped into Coopers' eye in the next round constantly.
Then the fight is stopped as his eye is just too bad..

Anyway is there any truth in this part of the fight?

About as much truth as Ali throwing his gold medal in the river. Its Ali-lore, that has got out ofhand. Dundee tried somehting, but nothing happened and it was a regular 1 min interval.

Roars Like Me wrote:I was after a conclusive answer for the slashed glove in the first Ali/Cooper fight?

I was watching 'Ringside' last night with Bert sugar and George Chuvalo watching the fight.

Whilst having to suck up Sugar's anti British jibes, which I have to say were ok considering the way we are with Henry.

It started with the presenter saying that We(british) take it as some sort of victory that Henry stuck Ali on his arse in the fourth. Sugar responds with ' Yeah the British think Dunkirk was a victory'. Anyway no mention of the U.S turning up two years too late for the war ets.. Anyway I digress.

They were talking of the 10-15 seconds extra time that Dundee was trying to buy to get Ali in shape. For example saying his glove was slashed so they would have to go back to the dressing room to get another pair. Even though he knew there wern't any there in the first place.

10-15 seconds doesn't seem considering and Ali got up easily enough in my opinion.

Is it me or did I dream this?
I thought that Dundee slashed Ali's glove on purpose whilst buying him a wee bit of recooperating(nice pun, thinking about it) time. Knowing full well that Cooper's eye was already seriously damaged. With the slash in the glove, this would be popped into Coopers' eye in the next round constantly.
Then the fight is stopped as his eye is just too bad..

Anyway is there any truth in this part of the fight?

There wasn't the mythical 1-2 minute break that some people think there was. The break was 65 seconds, 5 seconds longer than normal. Poor Cooper even believes it was much longer but I guess he would say that as it makes a good story for his after dinner speeches.

If the punch landed 30 seconds earlier who knows what the outcome would have been. Clay looked pretty much out of it and one more solid Cooper 'ammer could have ended the fight. But hey the boxing world is full of ifs and buts.

Controversial wrote:

Roars Like Me wrote:I was after a conclusive answer for the slashed glove in the first Ali/Cooper fight?

I was watching 'Ringside' last night with Bert sugar and George Chuvalo watching the fight.

Whilst having to suck up Sugar's anti British jibes, which I have to say were ok considering the way we are with Henry.

It started with the presenter saying that We(british) take it as some sort of victory that Henry stuck Ali on his arse in the fourth. Sugar responds with ' Yeah the British think Dunkirk was a victory'. Anyway no mention of the U.S turning up two years too late for the war ets.. Anyway I digress.

They were talking of the 10-15 seconds extra time that Dundee was trying to buy to get Ali in shape. For example saying his glove was slashed so they would have to go back to the dressing room to get another pair. Even though he knew there wern't any there in the first place.

10-15 seconds doesn't seem considering and Ali got up easily enough in my opinion.

Is it me or did I dream this?
I thought that Dundee slashed Ali's glove on purpose whilst buying him a wee bit of recooperating(nice pun, thinking about it) time. Knowing full well that Cooper's eye was already seriously damaged. With the slash in the glove, this would be popped into Coopers' eye in the next round constantly.
Then the fight is stopped as his eye is just too bad..

Anyway is there any truth in this part of the fight?

There wasn't the mythical 1-2 minute break that some people think there was. The break was 65 seconds, 5 seconds longer than normal. Poor Cooper even believes it was much longer but I guess he would say that as it makes a good story for his after dinner speeches.

If the punch landed 30 seconds earlier who knows what the outcome would have been. Clay looked pretty much out of it and one more solid Cooper 'ammer could have ended the fight. But hey the boxing world is full of ifs and buts.

I only thought there was around 10 seconsd as it goes..
As Chuvalo pointed out Clay jumped up well from Henry's punch.

Roars Like Me wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Roars Like Me wrote:I was after a conclusive answer for the slashed glove in the first Ali/Cooper fight?

I was watching 'Ringside' last night with Bert sugar and George Chuvalo watching the fight.

Whilst having to suck up Sugar's anti British jibes, which I have to say were ok considering the way we are with Henry.

It started with the presenter saying that We(british) take it as some sort of victory that Henry stuck Ali on his arse in the fourth. Sugar responds with ' Yeah the British think Dunkirk was a victory'. Anyway no mention of the U.S turning up two years too late for the war ets.. Anyway I digress.

They were talking of the 10-15 seconds extra time that Dundee was trying to buy to get Ali in shape. For example saying his glove was slashed so they would have to go back to the dressing room to get another pair. Even though he knew there wern't any there in the first place.

10-15 seconds doesn't seem considering and Ali got up easily enough in my opinion.

Is it me or did I dream this?
I thought that Dundee slashed Ali's glove on purpose whilst buying him a wee bit of recooperating(nice pun, thinking about it) time. Knowing full well that Cooper's eye was already seriously damaged. With the slash in the glove, this would be popped into Coopers' eye in the next round constantly.
Then the fight is stopped as his eye is just too bad..

Anyway is there any truth in this part of the fight?

There wasn't the mythical 1-2 minute break that some people think there was. The break was 65 seconds, 5 seconds longer than normal. Poor Cooper even believes it was much longer but I guess he would say that as it makes a good story for his after dinner speeches.

If the punch landed 30 seconds earlier who knows what the outcome would have been. Clay looked pretty much out of it and one more solid Cooper 'ammer could have ended the fight. But hey the boxing world is full of ifs and buts.

I only thought there was around 10 seconsd as it goes..
As Chuvalo pointed out Clay jumped up well from Henry's punch.

I read somewhere that it was actually officially timed at 65 seconds, although some people say 10 seconds. I think it matters not a lot. Clay was well recovered and if the bell went 10-15 seconds earlier I don't think would have made much difference to the final outcome. I know Clay jumped up quick but he was in some trouble. In his corner he tried to stand up and gets pushed back down and his eyes were glazed. He did recover very well though, and goes to prove that Clay/Ali had one of the best chins ever in heavyweight boxing.

Controversial wrote:

Roars Like Me wrote:

Controversial wrote: There wasn't the mythical 1-2 minute break that some people think there was. The break was 65 seconds, 5 seconds longer than normal. Poor Cooper even believes it was much longer but I guess he would say that as it makes a good story for his after dinner speeches.

If the punch landed 30 seconds earlier who knows what the outcome would have been. Clay looked pretty much out of it and one more solid Cooper 'ammer could have ended the fight. But hey the boxing world is full of ifs and buts.

I only thought there was around 10 seconsd as it goes..
As Chuvalo pointed out Clay jumped up well from Henry's punch.

I read somewhere that it was actually officially timed at 65 seconds, although some people say 10 seconds. I think it matters not a lot. Clay was well recovered and if the bell went 10-15 seconds earlier I don't think would have made much difference to the final outcome. I know Clay jumped up quick but he was in some trouble. In his corner he tried to stand up and gets pushed back down and his eyes were glazed. He did recover very well though, and goes to prove that Clay/Ali had one of the best chins ever in heavyweight boxing.

he was quite wobbly indeed. Cooper mustv had some power.

cultus wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Roars Like Me wrote: I only thought there was around 10 seconsd as it goes..
As Chuvalo pointed out Clay jumped up well from Henry's punch.

I read somewhere that it was actually officially timed at 65 seconds, although some people say 10 seconds. I think it matters not a lot. Clay was well recovered and if the bell went 10-15 seconds earlier I don't think would have made much difference to the final outcome. I know Clay jumped up quick but he was in some trouble. In his corner he tried to stand up and gets pushed back down and his eyes were glazed. He did recover very well though, and goes to prove that Clay/Ali had one of the best chins ever in heavyweight boxing.

he was quite wobbly indeed. Cooper mustv had some power.

Cooper had a fantastic left hook, which was nicknamed 'ENRYS 'AMMER. This punch ended many of his 27ko's out of 40 wins. If you get a chance watch Cooper flattening Joe Erskine, great left hook KO. Just goes to show that size doesn't always matter. A 185lb Cooper had Ali in more trouble than Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier etc... ever did.

Just goes to show anyone can be put down if cault right, also shows early career knockdowns shouldn't be used to cast doubt on a fighter's chin (depending on the nature of the KD I suppose).

In an interview I saw with Cooper he mentions how in their first fight he could get away with murder on the inside, but by the second Ali had learnt to use his strength to tie up, as truth be told Ali was not a great in-fighter.

J-C wrote:Just goes to show anyone can be put down if cault right, also shows early career knockdowns shouldn't be used to cast doubt on a fighter's chin (depending on the nature of the KD I suppose).

In an interview I saw with Cooper he mentions how in their first fight he could get away with murder on the inside, but by the second Ali had learnt to use his strength to tie up, as truth be told Ali was not a great in-fighter.

Exactly. Bert Cooper had Evander Holyfield down and in trouble and Bert Cooper was basically a cruiserweight, although a very big hitter. Yet Holyfield walked through Tysons punches.

Also Riddick Bowe claimed Herbie Hide punched him the hardest and Hide was only a blown up cruiserweight.

There is some argument how much time may have elapsed between rounds.
Some say as much as 12 minutes other just 65 seconds.
Well,I dont think you can go by the film footage that ESPN shows,because obviuosly its the edited version.
Probably the BBC got rid of the original version years ago,when they destroyed many of the BBC produced shows to make room(like some Jimi Hendrix concerts that the BBC taped.

Brutu wrote:There is some argument how much time may have elapsed between rounds.
Some say as much as 12 minutes other just 65 seconds.
Well,I dont think you can go by the film footage that ESPN shows,because obviuosly its the edited version.
Probably the BBC got rid of the original version years ago,when they destroyed many of the BBC produced shows to make room(like some Jimi Hendrix concerts that the BBC taped.

Harry Carpenter, who was doing the commentary for the BBC says it was 65 seconds. You think he'd know and if you listen to his very pro-Cooper commentary I'm sure he'd have been making a huge song and dance about it if the intermission had over run for more than a few seconds.

Bruto, I think I'm right in saying you've raised this myth more than once in here while never producing any evidence. I know it's hard to find evidence that doesn't exist but...

To keep perpetuating the myth, you must have something to go on rather than the stories by the two fellows who have dined out on this rubbish for 40 years.

If you can post some contemporary fight reports from Uk newspapers of the time mentioning this 12 minute delay, I'd take you more seriously. It shouldn't be hard to find if it really happened as this was a huge fight in the UK at the time and would have been covered extensively in the press of the day.

I remember seeing Dundee say he tore the glove. Ali says he couldnt recall Dundee ever doing it, but said if Dundee said he done it, then he did.

Seconds feel like minutes, minutes feel like hours in there. Like Cooper said 'Just a lil time is like a life time for an athlete.'

As far as Ali jumping up immediately from the punch, true, but he was dazed when he hit the stool. Dundee said he passed out and then regained consciousness, or something to that affect, in a matter of seconds and had to buy his man some time, so he tore into the glove when he noticed a small tear in it.

'Cooper's hook hit me so hard it shook up my ancestors in Africa'

Ali.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I remember seeing Dundee say he tore the glove. Ali says he couldnt recall Dundee ever doing it, but said if Dundee said he done it, then he did.

Seconds feel like minutes, minutes feel like hours in there. Like Cooper said 'Just a lil time is like a life time for an athlete.'

As far as Ali jumping up immediately from the punch, true, but he was dazed when he hit the stool. Dundee said he passed out and then regained consciousness, or something to that affect, in a matter of seconds and had to buy his man some time, so he tore into the glove when he noticed a small tear in it.

'Cooper's hook hit me so hard it shook up my ancestors in Africa'

Ali.

The fact that YOU believe the story only serves to show there is one born every minute.

Give us some evidence from the newspapers of the time, rather than simply claiming Dundee's word is holy writ.

If it happened the evidence shouldn't be hard to find...

Maybe Mr. Carpientier was an Ali fan ,who probably had a lot funner victory parties then Henry Cooper did,who probably just want peace and quiet and a hot cup of tea of course.

Brutu wrote:Maybe Mr. Carpientier was an Ali fan ,who probably had a lot funner victory parties then Henry Cooper did,who probably just want peace and quiet and a hot cup of tea of course.

You could have a point. Heck, that's no dafter than any of your other theories...

Bruto and Rupert - the dream team. Perpetuating baseless myths one post at a time.

Go read the rather excellent book,
ONLY THE RING WAS SQUARE
written by Teddy Brenner,
the famous matchmaker of Madison Square Garden.
"Long regarded as the most astute matchmaker in the boxing buisness".
Well.Mr Brenner was sitting ringside at that particular fight in Wembley stadium in 1963(seated right next to Liz and Dick,in the front row,natch)
He writes in the book that Ali ,
"had an extra rest of maybe four minutes",
between rounds.(pp 84-85).

The surviving footage of that fight is edited footage.
Notice how the film stock changes for the worse when the fifth round finally commences.
Also notice how the sound synchroniztion is off in the fourth round.
The crowd roars even before Henry Cooper lands that famous left hook!!!

FACT the delay was measured in seconds not minutes.....this has been debunked many times with the genuine footage. Dundee did bugger with a glove hole to make it worse than it already was....didn't buy him much in the final reel. This fight was not going to go Cooper's way regardless of optimistic revisionism by those with a soft spot for the Union Jack.

..i won't comment on the time delay, if there was one. but i will comment on the boxing knowledge of teddy brenner. in an interview show about heavyweights, teddy didn't think ezzard charles was underated as a heavyweight (okay, opinion,and fair enough), but he said ezzard would be rated higher as a light heayweight, but..."he didn't stay in that division long enough"!!!!!!!! i shall not comment. anyone who needs to verify this nonsense is welcome to check boxrec. he also said the fourth walcott/charles fight was not for the title. he's pulled some beauts about other boxing history, but these are the two i remember most as i have near total recall on most things ezzard.

Fifty years ago today.
I was curious as to how the English newspapers covered the fight afterwards?
What did they write about the delay?

Its all the refs fault.
Concerned Angelo Dundee just wanted to make sure that Henry Cooper
wasn't injured by Ali fighting with a torn glove in the next round.
Because that may have opened a cut with it or something.
I will never believe that there was only a "few seconds"delay.
That "someone" was sent up to Ali's dressing room to get another pair.
The fight was at the Wembley football Stadium.
How long would that have taken for someone from ringside to go up to the dressing room,look around for the gloves,then come back and say there wasn't another pair available?

Brutu wrote: I will never believe that there was only a "few seconds"delay.

That's right.

Why let facts ruin a good story.

June 18 1963,Wembley Stadium London England.
(notice what happens at about 8:31 seconds into this film footage.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frn3rTj5DOY

FACT:Ever heard of the Nixon tapes?

Who gives a fornicate, Henry should have been up waiting and in the centre of the ring not sat on his stool also. Then no one mentions this.

But by then the "Blume was off the Rose".
Im sure Enery was tired himself after all that waiting.
Sat on the stool to rest his own legs rather then just standing around in his corner for 10 minutes.
Well IMOP ,even if Enery had been awarded this fight by TKO,
No doubt Muhammad Ali would still have became
the Heavyweight Champion of the World(eventually).