BoxRec

How do yuou think he would do against todays crop of heavies?

Just been watching him on ESPN against Fraizer.I think he would have done very welll.Tough as anything ,brave, great chin ,decent power a better boxer than I remembered (mind you I was only a little kid when he fought Ali) In fight against Fraizer,he showed a ton of guts to withstand Fraizers attack and hurt Fraizer 3 or 4 times flooring him twice. When you see the pace those two fella s fought at and compare today to then it's another world.

icejack wrote:Just been watching him on ESPN against Fraizer.I think he would have done very welll.Tough as anything ,brave, great chin ,decent power a better boxer than I remembered (mind you I was only a little kid when he fought Ali) In fight against Fraizer,he showed a ton of guts to withstand Fraizers attack and hurt Fraizer 3 or 4 times flooring him twice. When you see the pace those two fella s fought at and compare today to then it's another world.

I was watching it too, that's what made me post it.
They did have excellent stamina and speed it has to be said. I did notice that Frazier was around 204 so i guess Oscar was the same.
They are super heavies now, I finally know what that stands for,'Super Slow'
He gave Ali a tought time aswell I noticed, alas the closest this current crop have to Oscar is Joe Mesi

I think Oscar would be right up there, probably hold a version of the world title...J

Ali rated their fight one of the ten toughest he had. Fraizer was a dangerous guy to fight non stop aggresion and his powerful hooks,Bonevena showed great strength in close against Joe,feel Joe won it clear enough but as you say Bonevena would almost certainly be a world champ now

Roars Like Me wrote: alas the closest this current crop have to Oscar is Joe Mesi

How on earth can you put Bonavena and Mesi in the same sentence??

A soft protected patsy with an alleged punch versus an all time hard nut who would go hell for leather with some of the greatest ever right down the stretch.

I would favor Bonavena over any of the current title-holders.

Maskaev and Briggs I don't feel like I need to give an explanation.

Vs Klitschko, Wlad would have to fight at a pace he would not be comfortable in and get gassed. If Brewster could make Wlad tire with body shots and constantly being in his face, then the more awkward, much better conditioned (and granite jawed) Oscar would give Klitschko hell and have him ready for a knockout loss by the 8th.

Vs Valuev, if sloppy Ruiz could get inside and land enough leather to decision Valuev, I think Bonavena would as well.

I only see Byrd being slick and tough enough to beat Bonavena, but it would be a prime Byrd, not the guy today.

Agree. Could not see Wlad lasting the pace with Bonavena. No way no how.

overhand_right wrote:

Roars Like Me wrote: alas the closest this current crop have to Oscar is Joe Mesi

How on earth can you put Bonavena and Mesi in the same sentence??

A soft protected patsy with an alleged punch versus an all time hard nut who would go hell for leather with some of the greatest ever right down the stretch.

This is my whole point, the divison is that weak that is all I could come up with, It was a random name, they are all rubbish..
Feel free to pick one yourself for the current crop if you can

You've got him in the wrong division.

He was a 200-205 lb fighter in his prime.

Now tell me what kind of cruiser he would have been.

That's scary...buy Quarry would have to be allowed back to join him at around 200 lbs.

Joe

If hes over 200 then hes a heavy mate. A fighter of Bonavena's size & qualities would do serious damage in this division. I dont care how many of these modern day weight lifters would outweight him by 40ibs, Bonavena would not be blown out by anybody & they cannot fight at a pace.

Quarry, exact same size as he was way back when, would also mop the floor with these guys.

Rng Anncr wrote:You've got him in the wrong division.

He was a 200-205 lb fighter in his prime.

Now tell me what kind of cruiser he would have been.

That's scary...buy Quarry would have to be allowed back to join him at around 200 lbs.

Joe

In terms of pure body size and physique, he was a slightly bigger version of David Tua.

Difference was Bonavena was ripped and hard, and Tua even vs the likes of Ibeabuchi was soft like silly putty.

overhand_right wrote:Agree. Could not see Wlad lasting the pace with Bonavena. No way no how.

Why not? Wlad proved he could box and move for a full 12 rounds vs Sam Peter.

Oscar was a tough nut, but he lost quite a few matches to the likes of Ellis, Foley, Patterson, and Lyle.

None of the above guys were known for tough chins, and none of the above guys had Vlad's power or size. Vlad would stop Bonavena, or win an easy decison.

pound per pound wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Agree. Could not see Wlad lasting the pace with Bonavena. No way no how.

Why not? Wlad proved he could box and move for a full 12 rounds vs Sam Peter.

Oscar was a tough nut, but he lost quite a few matches to the likes of Ellis, Foley, Patterson, and Lyle.

None of the above guys were known for tough chins, and none of the above guys had Vlad's power or size. Vlad would stop Bonavena, or win an easy decison.

No doubt Lyle hit as hard as Klitschko.

Lyle and Ellis also had excellent chins. Patterson and Foley at their best were excellent boxer-punchers with great stamina.

Sam Peter? The guy fought Wlad with the foot speed of a snail and fought standing straight up, despite already being the much shorter guy. He was a sitting duck for Wlad's straight shots all night, and even when Wlad tired, the 245 lb, 6'1 Peter was even more gassed and couldn't do anything in the later rounds but follow Wlad around and eat jabs and right crosses.

Bonavena, in MUCH better condition, he knew how to crouch vs taller opponents, much more awkward to fight, just as durable. Only thing I'd give Peter over Oscar is punching power.

dempseyfire wrote:

pound per pound wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Agree. Could not see Wlad lasting the pace with Bonavena. No way no how.

Why not? Wlad proved he could box and move for a full 12 rounds vs Sam Peter.

Oscar was a tough nut, but he lost quite a few matches to the likes of Ellis, Foley, Patterson, and Lyle.

None of the above guys were known for tough chins, and none of the above guys had Vlad's power or size. Vlad would stop Bonavena, or win an easy decison.

No doubt Lyle hit as hard as Klitschko.

Lyle and Ellis also had excellent chins. Patterson and Foley at their best were excellent boxer-punchers with great stamina.

Sam Peter? The guy fought Wlad with the foot speed of a snail and fought standing straight up, despite already being the much shorter guy. He was a sitting duck for Wlad's straight shots all night, and even when Wlad tired, the 245 lb, 6'1 Peter was even more gassed and couldn't do anything in the later rounds but follow Wlad around and eat jabs and right crosses.

Bonavena, in MUCH better condition, he knew how to crouch vs taller opponents, much more awkward to fight, just as durable. Only thing I'd give Peter over Oscar is punching power.

Demspeyfire,

Lyle and Ellis had excellent chins you say? Excellent chins? Bollocks. Lyle was Ko'd more than Vlad was in his first 50 fights. Ellis was a small heavy. He too was Ko'd by the power punchers he fought. Ellis was a boxer, not a puncher, yet he floored Bonevena twice. What do you think Vlad would do to him?

Also, Lyle does not hit as hard as Vlad.

Something tells me your baised when it comes to the new breed of heavyweights with lots of K's, C's V's, I's and O's in their names.

pound per pound wrote:Lyle was Ko'd more than Vlad was in his first 50 fights.

Lyle was stopped 4 times.

Ali in 1975 (TKO, he never hit the deck)
Foreman in 1976
Ball in 1979 when he was 38
Cooney 1n 1980 when he was 39

So prior to the age of 38, Lyle was KO’d twice by 2 of the greatest HWs of all time, and one of them couldn’t get him off his feet. Wlad was stopped by Purritty when he was only 22, but Sanders and Brewster stomped him while he was in his prime years. No offense intended, but trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment.

pound per pound wrote:Also, Lyle does not hit as hard as Vlad.

Wlad does hit hard, but this is nothing more than opinion. Lyle dropped Foreman twice and KO’d Shavers. In fact, Lyle is the only HW to drop Foreman without the George being exhausted. I think most reasonable observers would agree that it’s quite likely that Lyle's power was at least comparable to Wlad’s.

pound per pound wrote:Something tells me your baised when it comes to the new breed of heavyweights with lots of K's, C's V's, I's and O's in their names.

Something tells me you may be biased towards the “modern” breed of HW that can’t fight at a decent pace for more than 4 or 5 rounds.

The Great John L

Lyle was stopped 4 times.

Ali in 1975 (TKO, he never hit the deck)
Foreman in 1976
Ball in 1979 when he was 38
Cooney 1n 1980 when he was 39

So prior to the age of 38, Lyle was KO’d twice by 2 of the greatest HWs of all time, and one of them couldn’t get him off his feet. Wlad was stopped by Purritty when he was only 22, but Sanders and Brewster stomped him while he was in his prime years. No offense intended, but trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment

There is no shame in being stopped by huge punchers like Sanders or Brewster. These guys hit much harder than Ali or Ball, and punch much faster than Foreman. My response was directed towards the “excellent " chin comment. Clearly, Lyle did not have that.

pound per pound wrote:Also, Lyle does not hit as hard as Vlad.

Wlad does hit hard, but this is nothing more than opinion. Lyle dropped Foreman twice and KO’d Shavers. In fact, Lyle is the only HW to drop Foreman without the George being exhausted. I think most reasonable observers would agree that it’s quite likely that Lyle's power was at least comparable to Wlad’s.

Shavers wasn't strong in the chin department either. Jimmy Young dropped big George, as did Ali. Only an novice or basied fan thinks Lyle hits harder than Vlad. While Lyle can be classifed as a puncher, he was not a eliete level puncher like Vlad is.

Something tells me you may be biased towards the “modern” breed of HW that can’t fight at a decent pace for more than 4 or 5 rounds.

Not so. I love the old time fighters. Its just some fans ( not you ) seem to hate modern boxing and hold them to unfair standards that past generations are exempt from.

Ring anncr is 100% corrct
Like many pre 80s HWs, Bonavena would be a cruiserweight today, or even if he had began his career in the 80s.

For his time, he was a solid HW, a guy who wasnt afraid to take on the best. Most of his losses read like the who's who on the elite of the era, and he had some wins against some tough compition. As I have said before, I put a lot more stock in that in terms of acheavement then most.

I'll take a guy with 9 or 10 losses against elite opponents, over a guy who fought on the margins, got a title shot, lost and faded back into mediocrity, and ended his career with 2 or 3 losses any day.

If he were to attempt life in the HW division today however, and go in at say 210-215 , he would be the consummate gatekeeper. He might beat the Harrisons, Guinns and Becks, but fail at any level beyond that.

Against Wlad ?
A punchers chance at best, and a prohibitive long shot at that.

As I have said over and over again, these favorable comparisons between many past era fighters and today’s HWs, is a combination of romanticized hindsight and underestimating of the current HW crop.

There are maybe 6 HWs from the 70s, 3, maybe 4 from the 60s, 1 from the 50s and ZERO prior to that who even warrant consideration in a head to head match up against the best of the HW crop of today.
Like it or not, size, strength and the short term evolution of all athletes, boxers included, matter more then some are willing to accept.

pound per pound wrote:There is no shame in being stopped by huge punchers like Sanders or Brewster. These guys hit much harder than Ali or Ball, and punch much faster than Foreman. My response was directed towards the “excellent " chin comment. Clearly, Lyle did not have that.

Please give examples that prove Brewster and Sanders were huge punchers. Besides stopping Wlad neither has anything particularly impressive on their resume. Brewster couldn’t even stop the weak chinned Black Rhino and Sanders has a ton of KO’s over B level competition, but not much else. Without their KO’s of Wlad, they would both be considered C level fighters.

And perhaps you missed the fact that Ali didn’t drop Lyle. However, I do admit, that it takes some big ones to even mention Sanders and Brewster in the same paragraph as Ali and Foreman.

pound per pound wrote:Shavers wasn't strong in the chin department either.

Shaver’s chin was actually pretty good. While he was stopped a few times while in his prime, Quarry had to hit him about 50 times to get him off his feet, and most of his other stoppage losses were when he was quite long in the tooth, or were as much from exhaustion as the punches. You seem to be looking only at his record in Boxrec. You should watch his fights because he usually stood up pretty well to punches. Definitely not a great chin, but much better than he’s now given credit for.

Please also keep in mind that Wlad most likely won’t be fighting past his prime, as fighters in the past had to do, so he’ll miss out on plenty of opportunities to get stopped by journeymen when he’s 37+ years old.

pound per pound wrote:Jimmy Young dropped big George, as did Ali.

Perhaps you haven’t actually seen these fights. I think that you may be the only poster I’ve seen on this forum that would express doubts about George’s chin. But you are entitled to your opinion.

pound per pound wrote:Only an novice or basied fan thinks Lyle hits harder than Vlad.

Only someone without anything worth adding to the debate would make a statement like this. Lyle’s record and accomplishments speak for themselves, as do Wlad’s.

pound per pound wrote:

The Great John L

Lyle was stopped 4 times.

Ali in 1975 (TKO, he never hit the deck)
Foreman in 1976
Ball in 1979 when he was 38
Cooney 1n 1980 when he was 39

So prior to the age of 38, Lyle was KO’d twice by 2 of the greatest HWs of all time, and one of them couldn’t get him off his feet. Wlad was stopped by Purritty when he was only 22, but Sanders and Brewster stomped him while he was in his prime years. No offense intended, but trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment

There is no shame in being stopped by huge punchers like Sanders or Brewster. These guys hit much harder than Ali or Ball, and punch much faster than Foreman. My response was directed towards the “excellent " chin comment. Clearly, Lyle did not have that.

pound per pound wrote:Also, Lyle does not hit as hard as Vlad.

Wlad does hit hard, but this is nothing more than opinion. Lyle dropped Foreman twice and KO’d Shavers. In fact, Lyle is the only HW to drop Foreman without the George being exhausted. I think most reasonable observers would agree that it’s quite likely that Lyle's power was at least comparable to Wlad’s.

Shavers wasn't strong in the chin department either. Jimmy Young dropped big George, as did Ali. Only an novice or basied fan thinks Lyle hits harder than Vlad. While Lyle can be classifed as a puncher, he was not a eliete level puncher like Vlad is.

Something tells me you may be biased towards the “modern” breed of HW that can’t fight at a decent pace for more than 4 or 5 rounds.

Not so. I love the old time fighters. Its just some fans ( not you ) seem to hate modern boxing and hold them to unfair standards that past generations are exempt from.

Have you seen Ellis's KO losses? The Ali fight was basically due to exhaustion (partly due to overtraining) and in both Frazier fights he took a helluva lot of bombs and kept going at it until the ref or the corner stopped it. The only time he was counted out was vs Shavers. Both Ellis and Lyle at their best were much more durable than Klitschko could ever dream.

Lyn Ball was actually a very hard puncher-how do you know he didn't hit harder than Brewster and Sanders? Sanders was able to KO journeyman like Al Cole and Bobby Cyz but landed his best bombs on Rahman and still lost the fight. Brewster also went the distance vs Shufford, Ettiene, and got a gift vs Meehan (and lost to Rahman after landing his best shots on Hasim) The guy has a fair punch but is basically nothing more than an over-achieiving gatekeeper (and Sanders WAS a gatekeeper)

Klitschko has a great but limited offensive arsenal. He probably has the best hook off the jab of any bigger HW (over 6'3) who ever lived, and his jab and right cross can be beautiful. Unfortunately, he can't really do much beyond that. His chin is made of pure glass (I've seen him AT LEAST stunned and hold on EVERYTIME he's ever been hit by a clean shot to the face), his stamina is very shaky (he showed some heart in the Peter fight but the only reason he went the distance was that Peter was more tired than he was), he fights scared of being hit and he has no inside punches to speak of. He's a big guy with some talent with serious vulnerabilities (which is why he's lost 3 times by KO to completely unheralded guys . . .does a girl need to cheat on you 3 times before you realize she's unfaithful?)

Back to the original point, the less skilled but superiorly conditioned and durable puncher in Bonavena rolls over Klitschko.

edit

DaveV17 wrote:Size and strength do matter in boxing.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Size does matter.

DaveV17 wrote: In the 70s the 6-5. 235 pound Roy Williams was a feared heavyweight. He was mostly a sparring partner, but few wanted to fight him because of his size.

No, actually he was feared because of his punching power, his performances in the gym and his menacing look. But yes, the size did help.

DaveV17 wrote:Today, fighters his size are common. Some of them have extensive amateur backgrounds, and others are well conditioned and well schooled.

There are very few that appear well conditioned compared to top HWs from prior generations, and the amateur program is a mere shell of what it was just as recently as the late 70’s-early 80’s. The diminishing number of boxing gyms in the US severly compromises the talent developed in this country.

DaveV17 wrote: To get to the top today, a fighter Bonavena's size or even the size of the 1973 Foreman (6-3, 217), is going to have to give up size and strength almost every fight.

Today’s Boxrec top 10 has 4 fighters over 6-3, so it’s not like all of the top HWs are these towering giants. And while the average weight is also higher than in the past, that’s most likely because many of these guys aren't quite as fit as most of the top HWs from prior generations. Looking at Bonavena and a similar larger “modern” HW like Brewster, we see that Bonavena fought best at 205-210 while Brewster fights between 225-230. I think most would agree that Bonavena was just a tad bit more fit than the Brewster that seems to run out of gas in every fight. Except of course for when he fought Wlad, who ran out of gas before Lamon did. If Bonavena at his peak was in similar condition to Brwester he would probably be 220+ pounds, roughly the same size as Brewster.

It doesn’t seem a stretch to envision a 225-230 pound Foreman KOing Wlad. In fact, I’d have a hard time seeing it any other way.

DaveV17 wrote:A good fighter from the 60s or 70s might beat one of today's giants in a one time match up, but could one of those fighters get to the top having to fight one of the giants in almost every fight? Fighting up hill is hard. Preparing for it and doing it once in a career is one thing, doing it 20-30 times is another.

None of the current HWs has had to beat “one of these giants in every fight” either!! Just look at Wlad’s resume since the Brewster fight. Besides the menacing Austin and Peter, he’s been fighting smaller HWs that posed no real threat. I'd hardly call Castillo, TOS, Byrd and Brock giants. In fact, Peter is only 6-1.

edit

DaveV17 wrote:Size and strength do matter in boxing. In the 70s the 6-5. 235 pound Roy Williams was a feared heavyweight. He was mostly a sparring partner, but few wanted to fight him because of his size.

Today, fighters his size are common. Some of them have extensive amateur backgrounds, and others are well conditioned and well schooled. To get to the top today, a fighter Bonavena's size or even the size of the 1973 Foreman (6-3, 217), is going to have to give up size and strength almost every fight.

A good fighter from the 60s or 70s might beat one of today's giants in a one time match up, but could one of those fighters get to the top having to fight one of the giants in almost every fight? Fighting up hill is hard. Preparing for it and doing it once in a career is one thing, doing it 20-30 times is another.

He was feared not just b/c of his size, but because he was a big punching, athletic skilled HWwho also had an excellent chin. Much better than friggin' Ray Austin and McCline. Have you seen Williams fight?
If size was the big X factor, then why wasn't Jack O'Halloran avoided??

With the exception of Valuev and the Klitschkos, guys today aren't bigger. They are heavier. George Foreman weighed a fit 220 in his prime, but trust me he would not be dwarfed by anyone in terms of overall body-type and strength (besides Valuev, who let's face it is a real oddity who won his championship off a pair of bad decisions) Just because Rahman, Peter etc. don't watch their diet and bulk up on their 6'1 and 6'2 frames doesn't mean they are nauturally bigger and stronger than Foreman.

And watch the first Peralta fight. Foreman maintained a FURIOUS pace for 10 rounds . . .Wlad tried to maintain that pace vs Brewster and didn't last 5 rounds.

Case in point: Danny Williams. Looked a solid and strong 265 vs Tyson and others. But he was grossly overweight and not in fighting shape. Some claimed that he couldn't ever get back down in weight b/c so much of it was muscle.
Well look, he's now in the 220s and looking his best in years (and still isn't as fit as he could be). Sam Peter and others could surely do the same thing if they wanted to. It's weight, not size. Bonavena was 5'10 or 5'11 . . .Brewster is 6'1)

Yes, the Klitschkos and Grant etc. "look to be in shape" It's not about how you look . . it's how hard you train, plus your natural size. I truly think that Wlad is a hard worker and is in pretty good shape, but a guy 6'6, 245 is never going to have the stamina of a fit 6'2, 215 lber. He tried to fight at a brisk pace in the Brewster and Purrity bouts and couldn't maintain it. That's why he fights VERY slowly and cautiously now. The only thing that kept me awake in the Brock fight was the possibility that Wlad could get knocked out with a single punch!

BTW Did you see Tye Field's last fight? He looked like he was in an oxygen tank after 3 rounds . . . .

pound per pound wrote:Ellis was a boxer, not a puncher,

Ellis was indeed foremost a boxer but he had plenty of power in his right hand, the guy could punch.


As for how would Bonavena do if he was around today? Well I think the bull strong Ringo would be a dangerous top contender in any era and a title holder in a few, if only for a short time.

Ringo vs Sam Peters could be have been a real rough brawl.