BoxRec

Considering that Bell and Mormeck are fighting the eliminator soon for a spot how would the rest of the 16 man All time "Cruiserweight" Tourament be seeded and bracketed?

1.Evander Holyfield
2.Rocky Marciano
3.Ezzard Charles
4.James Toney
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Michael Moorer
8.Floyd Patterson
9.Archie Moore
10.Michael Spinks
11.Juan Carlos Gomez
12.Vasily Jirov
13.O'Neil Bell
14.Jean Marc Mormeck
15.Virgil Hill
16.Carlos DeLeon
17.Al Cole

Consideration only given to those that won championships in any weight class but either fought under 200 lbs. and/or were naturally at and had their best success at under 200 lb. (Jirov, Toney, Cole)

I like this, good idea.

It's a remarkably strong field with a wide range of talents. My goodness, what serious boxing fan wouldn't sell a kidney to see a prime Archie Moore staring across the ring at a 187lb Jack Dempsey? #1 seed should surely go to Holyfield, the greatest "formal" cruiserweight of all-time, and he could be argued on his overall merits as well.

Bob Foster could get into this tournament, couldn't he?

Qawi too.

actjac wrote:Considering that Bell and Mormeck are fighting the eliminator soon for a spot how would the rest of the 16 man All time "Cruiserweight" Tourament be seeded and bracketed?

1.Evander Holyfield
2.Rocky Marciano
3.Ezzard Charles
4.James Toney
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Michael Moorer
8.Floyd Patterson
9.Archie Moore
10.Michael Spinks
11.Juan Carlos Gomez
12.Vasily Jirov
13.O'Neil Bell
14.Jean Marc Mormeck
15.Virgil Hill
16.Carlos DeLeon
17.Al Cole

Consideration only given to those that won championships in any weight class but either fought under 200 lbs. and/or were naturally at and had their best success at under 200 lb. (Jirov, Toney, Cole)

THe likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney and Charles being in this tourny makes the rest of the contestants mute.

Take out those 4 (and Evander, who'd be the next clear favorite) and the tournament becomes more interesting.

Ezzard wrote:Bob Foster could get into this tournament, couldn't he?

However, though Foster tried he never won a title above 175. Spinks, Hill and Moorer did.

dempseyfire wrote:

actjac wrote:Considering that Bell and Mormeck are fighting the eliminator soon for a spot how would the rest of the 16 man All time "Cruiserweight" Tourament be seeded and bracketed?

1.Evander Holyfield
2.Rocky Marciano
3.Ezzard Charles
4.James Toney
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Michael Moorer
8.Floyd Patterson
9.Archie Moore
10.Michael Spinks
11.Juan Carlos Gomez
12.Vasily Jirov
13.O'Neil Bell
14.Jean Marc Mormeck
15.Virgil Hill
16.Carlos DeLeon
17.Al Cole

Consideration only given to those that won championships in any weight class but either fought under 200 lbs. and/or were naturally at and had their best success at under 200 lb. (Jirov, Toney, Cole)

THe likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney and Charles being in this tourny makes the rest of the contestants mute.

Take out those 4 (and Evander, who'd be the next clear favorite) and the tournament becomes more interesting.

Modern day cruiserweights fight at a higher weight than older heavyweight
champs (Tunney, Dempsey, Charles and Marciano). Today they would be competing in the same weight class.

actjac wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

actjac wrote:Considering that Bell and Mormeck are fighting the eliminator soon for a spot how would the rest of the 16 man All time "Cruiserweight" Tourament be seeded and bracketed?

1.Evander Holyfield
2.Rocky Marciano
3.Ezzard Charles
4.James Toney
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Michael Moorer
8.Floyd Patterson
9.Archie Moore
10.Michael Spinks
11.Juan Carlos Gomez
12.Vasily Jirov
13.O'Neil Bell
14.Jean Marc Mormeck
15.Virgil Hill
16.Carlos DeLeon
17.Al Cole

Consideration only given to those that won championships in any weight class but either fought under 200 lbs. and/or were naturally at and had their best success at under 200 lb. (Jirov, Toney, Cole)

THe likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney and Charles being in this tourny makes the rest of the contestants mute.

Take out those 4 (and Evander, who'd be the next clear favorite) and the tournament becomes more interesting.

Modern day cruiserweights fight at a higher weight than older heavyweight
champs (Tunney, Dempsey, Charles and Marciano). Today they would be competing in the same weight class.

I'm not contesting they wouldn't weigh the same.

But the gap between Dempsey, Charles, Marciano etc. in terms of the overall combination of skill, durability, punching power etc. is too much.

dempseyfire wrote:

actjac wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: THe likes of Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney and Charles being in this tourny makes the rest of the contestants mute.

Take out those 4 (and Evander, who'd be the next clear favorite) and the tournament becomes more interesting.

Modern day cruiserweights fight at a higher weight than older heavyweight
champs (Tunney, Dempsey, Charles and Marciano). Today they would be competing in the same weight class.

I'm not contesting they wouldn't weigh the same.

But the gap between Dempsey, Charles, Marciano etc. in terms of the overall combination of skill, durability, punching power etc. is too much.

Moore, Hill, Tunney and Toney can certainly be competitive with the above mentioned. In a tourament you need opening round matches and the rest are worthy opponents.

actjac wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

actjac wrote: Modern day cruiserweights fight at a higher weight than older heavyweight
champs (Tunney, Dempsey, Charles and Marciano). Today they would be competing in the same weight class.

I'm not contesting they wouldn't weigh the same.

But the gap between Dempsey, Charles, Marciano etc. in terms of the overall combination of skill, durability, punching power etc. is too much.

Moore, Hill, Tunney and Toney can certainly be competitive with the above mentioned. In a tourament you need opening round matches and the rest are worthy opponents.

OK, I should have included Tunney and Moore.
Toney could last the distance and give some trouble to a few guys but I wouldn't favor him at all vs Marciano, Tunney, Dempsey, Charles.

Toney imitated the likes of Moore and Walcott. He'd be in over his head if he actually faced them.

Virgil Hill? Come on now . . .

I don't mean to crap on your tournament. I think it's an interesting idea. I just would exclude some of the proven all time greats/bigger guys who trained down to make it more interesting as to who prevails.

Marciano just too fornicating powerful. Dempsey just too damn brutal. Tunney very skillful and one of the best LHW's of all time. Charles is a step and a half over Tunney in the same areas.

Only guys who would do good outside of those four:

-Holyfield
-Patterson
-Spinks
-Moore


The rest? Fuckin forget about it. Sure they all worthy opponents, but they wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell against The Rock or The Manassa Mauler.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Marciano just too effing powerful. Dempsey just too damn brutal. Tunney very skillful and one of the best LHW's of all time. Charles is a step and a half over Tunney in the same areas.

Only guys who would do good outside of those four:

-Holyfield
-Patterson
-Spinks
-Moore


The rest? Fuckin forget about it. Sure they all worthy opponents, but they wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell against The Rock or The Manassa Mauler.

Think about what a second round would possibly then look like:
Dempsey-vs- Moore
Marciano -vs- Spinks
Charles -vs- Holyfield
Tunney -vs- Patterson

actjac wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Bob Foster could get into this tournament, couldn't he?

However, though Foster tried he never won a title above 175. Spinks, Hill and Moorer did.

Yes, but Foster didn't have the Crusiser division or the proliferation of titles to aim for. I think he'd have beaten some on your list.

Ezzard wrote:

actjac wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Bob Foster could get into this tournament, couldn't he?

However, though Foster tried he never won a title above 175. Spinks, Hill and Moorer did.

Yes, but Foster didn't have the Crusiser division or the proliferation of titles to aim for. I think he'd have beaten some on your list.

Agreed that he was a great champion and possibly could have beat others on the list but he rarely fought above 175lbs and the few times he did he usually lost....Jones, Foley, Terrell, Ali, Frazier

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=9000

Foster also lost to Charlie Polite, if I recall. Makes one wonder why he believed he could take on Frazier, let alone Ali.

actjac, this is an interesting idea. Here af ew guys that you could add that are better than some of the guys that you originally listed:

Harold Johnson- Basically a lightheavyweight champion, had some success against heavyweights. Beat Charles,Valdes, and Machen.

Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Tom Sharkey
James Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

I agree that Qawi should be included. Add these to the 17 you already have and thats 25. I'll bet we wouldn't have much trouble getting up to 32 guys, which is a good amount for tournament. (wouldn't have to have byes).

Ambling Alp wrote:actjac, this is an interesting idea. Here af ew guys that you could add that are better than some of the guys that you originally listed:

Harold Johnson- Basically a lightheavyweight champion, had some success against heavyweights. Beat Charles,Valdes, and Machen.

Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Tom Sharkey
James Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

I agree that Qawi should be included. Add these to the 17 you already have and thats 25. I'll bet we wouldn't have much trouble getting up to 32 guys, which is a good amount for tournament. (wouldn't have to have byes).

see below......

Think about what a second round would possibly then look like:
Dempsey-vs- Moore
Marciano -vs- Spinks
Charles -vs- Holyfield
Tunney -vs- Patterson


I don't see Moore fairing with Dempsey any better than he did against Marciano, who was alot like Dempsey (but hit harder). Spinks would lose by kayo in around 6 rounds with The Rock (if he can't fair with Tyson's power, don't see how he could with Rocky). Charles-Holyfield is a bit too hard for me to make, but I'd lean towards Charles as he was the superior boxer and faster. Same with Tunney-Patterson, though Patterson hit harder and in my opinion was the second fastest HW champion.

Ambling Alp wrote:actjac, this is an interesting idea. Here af ew guys that you could add that are better than some of the guys that you originally listed:

Harold Johnson- Basically a lightheavyweight champion, had some success against heavyweights. Beat Charles,Valdes, and Machen.

Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Tom Sharkey
James Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

I agree that Qawi should be included. Add these to the 17 you already have and thats 25. I'll bet we wouldn't have much trouble getting up to 32 guys, which is a good amount for tournament. (wouldn't have to have byes).

Qawi was 22-10 above 175 lbs. and lost to a few to marginal opposition.
Harold Johnson rarely fought above 175lbs.
Tommy Loughran had a lot of losses to good fighters
Jimmy Bivins lost a lot to both Charles and Moore
Sharkey was only 13-7 in the last half of his career
Corbett is questionable. His only claim to fame was beating Sullivan

I would agree that Fitzsimmons and Burns could be considered.

actjac wrote:
11.Juan Carlos Gomez
12.Vasily Jirov
16.Carlos DeLeon
17.Al Cole

Mr Actjac,

if the above 4 are in the tournament I really feel that a place should be found for Johnny Nelson. You could also argue that Dariusz Michalczewski should get a placement as well, aftre all he was under 200lbs and also won a Cruiserweight title.

best wishes

"T.M.K"

actjac wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:actjac, this is an interesting idea. Here af ew guys that you could add that are better than some of the guys that you originally listed:

Harold Johnson- Basically a lightheavyweight champion, had some success against heavyweights. Beat Charles,Valdes, and Machen.

Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Tom Sharkey
James Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

I agree that Qawi should be included. Add these to the 17 you already have and thats 25. I'll bet we wouldn't have much trouble getting up to 32 guys, which is a good amount for tournament. (wouldn't have to have byes).

Qawi was 22-10 above 175 lbs. and lost to a few to marginal opposition.
Harold Johnson rarely fought above 175lbs.
Tommy Loughran had a lot of losses to good fighters
Jimmy Bivins lost a lot to both Charles and Moore
Sharkey was only 13-7 in the last half of his career
Corbett is questionable. His only claim to fame was beating Sullivan

I would agree that Fitzsimmons and Burns could be considered.

You do need to consider a few things:
Qawi- About the 10 losses over 175 (actually 9) 5 were when he was over 35 and well past it. Ezzard Charles lost 13 of his last 23 fights, but most people don't hold these losses against him becasue he was well past it. Same with Qawi in those 5. Of the other 4, 1 was to Foreman (who was no cruiserweight ) 2 were to Holyfield. Qawi was a very underrated lightheavyweight champion. He won the cruiserwieght title. His first fight with Holyfield is the greatest cruiserweight fight of all time.

Harold hohnson- though he didn't usually way much more than a lightheavyweight, Johnson had some success against heavyweights, escpecially smaller one. He beat Charles before Charles was washed up, beat Bivins, and also beat Eddie Machen who was a highly ranked contender. He gave rchie Moore a lot of trouble at lightheavyweight. Johnson would be a tough fight for almost anyone under 200 pounds.

Tommy Loughran did lose to several heavyweights, but he also beat several. This includes Max Baer, Jimmy Braddock,Jack Sharkey,Johnny risko, and Ernei Schaaf.

Jimmy Bivins- did lose to Moore and charles, and he wasn't as good as them. He did beat some decent heavyweights, including Pastor, Mauriello, and Thompson.

Tom Sharkey- did lost the 7 fights that you mentioned. However, that is a little deceiving. 2 were to Jeffries, and he was very competitive in both. 2 were to Ruhlin, who he also beat. 1 was to Fitzsimmons, one was a DQ and another was a 6 round newspaper decison. Sharkey also beat Choynksi and Goddard.

Corbett did more than just beat Sullivan. He had some other great fights. He beat Choynski, and had the 61 round fight with Peter Jackson. He also was way ahead on points when he was knocked out in the 23rd round by Jeffries.

Qawi,Loughran,Bivins,Sharkey and Corbett, probably wouldn't win the tournament. However, they each were better some of the guys that you had such as McCormeck, Hill, and Cole.

Ambling Alp wrote:

actjac wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:actjac, this is an interesting idea. Here af ew guys that you could add that are better than some of the guys that you originally listed:

Harold Johnson- Basically a lightheavyweight champion, had some success against heavyweights. Beat Charles,Valdes, and Machen.

Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Tom Sharkey
James Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

I agree that Qawi should be included. Add these to the 17 you already have and thats 25. I'll bet we wouldn't have much trouble getting up to 32 guys, which is a good amount for tournament. (wouldn't have to have byes).

Qawi was 22-10 above 175 lbs. and lost to a few to marginal opposition.
Harold Johnson rarely fought above 175lbs.
Tommy Loughran had a lot of losses to good fighters
Jimmy Bivins lost a lot to both Charles and Moore
Sharkey was only 13-7 in the last half of his career
Corbett is questionable. His only claim to fame was beating Sullivan

I would agree that Fitzsimmons and Burns could be considered.

You do need to consider a few things:
Qawi- About the 10 losses over 175 (actually 9) 5 were when he was over 35 and well past it. Ezzard Charles lost 13 of his last 23 fights, but most people don't hold these losses against him becasue he was well past it. Same with Qawi in those 5. Of the other 4, 1 was to Foreman (who was no cruiserweight ) 2 were to Holyfield. Qawi was a very underrated lightheavyweight champion. He won the cruiserwieght title. His first fight with Holyfield is the greatest cruiserweight fight of all time.

Harold hohnson- though he didn't usually way much more than a lightheavyweight, Johnson had some success against heavyweights, escpecially smaller one. He beat Charles before Charles was washed up, beat Bivins, and also beat Eddie Machen who was a highly ranked contender. He gave rchie Moore a lot of trouble at lightheavyweight. Johnson would be a tough fight for almost anyone under 200 pounds.

Tommy Loughran did lose to several heavyweights, but he also beat several. This includes Max Baer, Jimmy Braddock,Jack Sharkey,Johnny risko, and Ernei Schaaf.

Jimmy Bivins- did lose to Moore and charles, and he wasn't as good as them. He did beat some decent heavyweights, including Pastor, Mauriello, and Thompson.

Tom Sharkey- did lost the 7 fights that you mentioned. However, that is a little deceiving. 2 were to Jeffries, and he was very competitive in both. 2 were to Ruhlin, who he also beat. 1 was to Fitzsimmons, one was a DQ and another was a 6 round newspaper decison. Sharkey also beat Choynksi and Goddard.

Corbett did more than just beat Sullivan. He had some other great fights. He beat Choynski, and had the 61 round fight with Peter Jackson. He also was way ahead on points when he was knocked out in the 23rd round by Jeffries.

Qawi,Loughran,Bivins,Sharkey and Corbett, probably wouldn't win the tournament. However, they each were better some of the guys that you had such as McCormeck, Hill, and Cole.

This tournament could easily be with only the top ten mentioned because there is a gap following however with others nominated it could go to 24 or even 32 but really those in the top 10 are the only ones with a shot to win it. I suggested the latter half because of their records and the fact that there would need to be a competitive first round.

actjac wrote:

"Harold Johnson rarely fought above 175lbs."

_________________________________________________

HOWEVER---in the real world

HAROLD JOHNSON BEAT

Arturo Godoy (weight 200 to 178 for Johnson)

Nino Valdez (weighed 210 to 176 for Johnson)

Bert Whitehurst (weighed 196 to 176 for Johnson)

Sid Peaks (weighed 215 to 179 for Johnson)

Ollie Wilson (weighed 191 to 180 for Johnson)

Howard King (weighed 193 to 180 for Johnson)

Johnny York (weighed 206 to 182 for Johnson)

Eddie Machen (weighed 193 to 180 for Johnson)
__________________________________________________________


Welcome to the real world, actjac.

.

actjac wrote

"Tommy Loughran had a lot of losses to good fighters"
_________________________________________________________

Tommy Loughran beat heavyweight champions :

Jimmy Braddock

Max Baer

Jack Sharkey.


Tommy Loughran beat heavyweights :

Paolino Uzcudun

Johnny Risko (THREE times)

Ernie Schaaf (THREE times)

King Levinsky (THREE times)

Steve Hamas (twice)

Big Boy Peterson

Rat Impellettiere (twice)

Arturo Godoy

Al Etttore


Tommy Loughran beat light heavyweight champions :

Mike McTigue

Jimmy Slattery

George Carpentier


Loughran beat :

Young Stribling

Harry Greb

Mickey Walker

Johnny Wilson

Leo Lomski

Pete Latzo
__________________________________________________________

To repeat-----

actjac wrote

"Tommy Loughran had a lot of losses to good fighters"

actjac and the other "experts" here

You should certainly include

185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper

who knocked Ali down with a left hook in the fourth round of their fight

THE VERY fight before Ali supposedly was able to beat Sonny Liston.

Everyone here knows that Ali was the greatest fighter of all time--

so what does that make 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper?



You should cetainly iinclude 188 3/4 pound Doug Jones

who staggered Ali with a right hand 15 seconds into the first round of their ten round fight

and beat Ali to the punch and had Ali in danger all night long despite being outweighed by 25 pounds.

And of course this was THE SECOND TO THE LAST fight before Ali supposedly was able to beat Sonny Liston.