BoxRec

Have to dissagree on all counts here. Firstly Zales defeats early in his career came as he was developing, learning the trade, in his day you were not mollycoddled to 20-0 and a title fight after fighting a load of stiffs. Not wanting to be condecending but if you look at the records of some of the "nobodies" whom beat Zale you'll see that they were all experienced and hardened fighters who had faced contenders themselves...these were no pushovers... and it was fighting and in some cases losing fights like this that developed Zale into the great warrior he became. His punches to the body were lethal and he was a man of iron. He was unlucky to be approaching his pea just as the war came and no doubt lost his peak years (1942-1945) to it. Although Cedan was 32 himself when he faced Zale he hadn't had as many wars as Zale and the three Graziano fights really drained caught up with Tony that night.
I d definately rate Zale in the top ten at Middleweight and would give him a shot at beating Hagler at his best.
Graziano may have been a LightMiddle in reality but that only makes his acheivements more impressive, and one things for sure, he had the punch of a heavyweight. Don't forget that late in his career he dropped Ray Robinson who had a great chin. At his best Grazianoes punch and tenacity would give him a chance against any of the other Middleweight champs and so again he to my mind is not overrated.
As for Armstrong, even at Welterweight he still won his fights by overwhelming his opponents. Not just that but he beat Middleweights to and should have been crowned Middleweight champion againat Cerferano Garcia (sorry about spelling). Although he was small for a Welterweight and Middleweight Armstrong was still able to beat his opponents by his sheer speed and ferocity of attack. If my memory serves me he made about 20 defences of the Welter title alone in just a couple of years and would have stayed at the top for longer but was burned out by over-activity. I think only a few of the other Welter champs would have a chance of beating Armstrong, Robinson (perhaps but it would have been a real war, although Robinson did beat Armstrong Henry was well past it by that time), Ray Leonard (although Durans victory over Leonard makes me think that this would be a series and that Armstrong would be a nightmare for Leonard) and Duran (as strong an in-fighter as Armstrong and a little slicker) and thats it, Id definately put Armstrong in the top three at Welterweight. He would just devour Mosely, Delahoye, Trinidade and Forrest.... of them all Forrest would have the best chance....but not much of one. Zale, Graziano and Armstrong all fought in an era when there was much more competition and few soft touches. In those days you had to be speacial to make it into contendership.

IN THE "OLD" DAYS, fighters fought across 2 or 3 weight classes and fought once a week or 2-3 times a month. So having losses comes from just from not recouping from prior fights. To make it to any title is a great accomplishment. I would take any of these fighters and go to war with them.

I wouldn't say Graziano is over rated because I don't know of anybody who rates him inthe top ten. I don't think he belongs in the top twenty. He used to kid that he was the best middleweight inthe welterweight division, and other posters have pointed out he made his reputation beating up smaller guys. There was talk of him fighting LaMotta but it was just talk.Jake would have driven him out of the ring. Zale is harder to rate. He had trouble wth movers, but his body shots and just plain toughness might give him at least a chance against some top ten guys, though I wouldn't rate him there myself. Billy Conn said in the first round of their fight Zale hit him so hard in the body that he decided to stick and move the rest of the fight.. Back to Graziano...the knockdown over Robinson was actually a punch to the side of the neck, not the chin , and Robinson was up at once. I think we all can agree that when Zale and Graziano were tossing the tltle back and forth neither was the best middleweight at the time.