BoxRec

Here is an honest attempt to come up with a reasonably consistent top 100 all-time list, where "all-time" starts with Corbett vs. Sullivan. Of course there are plentiful chances to disagree (I'm not always in agreement with myself and copuld spend several more hours rearranging the list). Comments are welcome.

I considered Vitali retired but Vlad, Rahman, Byrd, Ruiz active. On current achievements Vlad would probably enter the top 70. The other three would barely make the top 100.

Cheers,
P

---------------------------

Hororable mention (out of competition) : John L Sullivan

1. Muhammad Ali - Prime 1963-1967
2. Joe Louis - Prime 1935-1942
3. Jack Johnson - Prime 1906-1910
4. Larry Holmes -Prime 1978-1984
5. George Foreman - Prime 1970-1974
6. Sonny Liston - Prime 1958-1962
7. Lennox Lewis - Prime 1997-2001
8. Sam Langford - Prime 1909-1912
9. Joe Frazier- Prime 1967-1971
10. Gene Tunney - Prime 1924-1928

11. Rocky Marciano - Prime 1951-1954
12. Jack Dempsey - Prime 1918-1922
13. Mike Tyson - Prime 1986-1990
14. Ezzard Charles - Prime 1946-1950
15. Harry Wills - Prime 1916-1921
16. James Jeffries - Prime 1899-1904
17. Evander Holyfield - Prime 1996-1999
18. James Corbett - Prime 1889-1894
19. Max Schmeling - Prime 1929-1933
20. Jersey Joe Walcott - Prime 1946-1951

21. Floyd Patterson - Prime 1956-1962
22. Peter Jackson- Prime late 1880's
23. Jack Sharkey- Prime 1926-1930
24. Michael Spinks - prime 1985-87
25. Ken Norton - Prime 1973-1978
26. Max Baer - Prime 1932-1935
27. Riddick Bowe - Prime 1992-1995
28. Joe Jeanette - Prime 1908-1913
29. Jerry Quarry - Prime 1967-1973
30. Bob Fitzsimmons - Prime 1896-99

31. Archie Moore - Prime 1952-1955
32. Elmer Ray - Prime 1942-1947
33. Jimmy Young - Prime 1974-1977
34. Tim Witherspoon - Prime 1983-1986
35. Cleveland Williams - Prime 1958-1963
36. Sam McVea - Prime 1907-1911
37. Ron Lyle - Prime 1973-1976
38. Pinklon Thomas - Prime 1982-1985
39. George Godfrey - Prime 1925-1928
40. Mike Weaver - Prime 1979-1983

41. Billy Conn - Prime 1941/1942 (at HW)
42. Ernie Terrell - prime 1963-1967
43. Tom Sharkey - Prime 1896-1899
44. Earnie Shavers - prime 1976-79
45. Vitali Klitschko - Prime 2002-04
46. Lee Q Murray- Prime 1943-1947
47. Ingemar Johannsen - Prime 1958-1961
48. Jimmy Ellis - Prime 1967-1971
49. Eddie Machen - Prime 1957-1962
50. Primo Carnera - Prime 1932-1934

51. Tommy Loughran - prime 1929-33
52. Young Stribling - prime 1928-31
53. Zora Folley - prime 1956-65
54. Jim Braddock - prime 1934-37
55. Joe Choynski - prime 1892-96
56. Harry Greb - prime (at HW) 1919-22
57. Oscar Bonavena - prime 1966-69
58. Tommy Gibbons - prime 1919-23
59. Jimmy Bivins - prime 1942-46
60. Earnie Schaaf - prime 1930-32

61. David Tua - prime 1996-2000
62. Tony Tucker - prime 1987-92
63. Buddy Baer - prime 1937-41
64. Gerry Cooney - prime 1980-82
65. George Chuvalo - prime 1966-70
66. James Douglas - prime 1986-90
67. Donovan Ruddock - prime 1989-92
68. Billy Miske - prime 1917/18
69. Tommy Burns - prime 1906-1910
70. Paolino Uzcudun - prime 1927-30

71. Ray Mercer - prime 1990-96
72. Larry Gains - prime 1928-32
73. Ike Ibeabuchi – prime 1997-99
74. Trevor Berbick - prime 1980-86
75. Andrew Golota - prime 1995/96
76. Gerrie Coetzee - prime 1979-83
77. Michael Moorer - prime 1992-97
78. Peter Maher, prime 1896-99
79. Lou Nova, prime 1938-41
80. Harold Johnson, prime 1953-61

81. Bob Pastor, prime 1938-42
82. Kid Norfolk, prime 1917-22
83. Michael Dokes - prime 1980-83
84. Fred Fulton - prime 1917-1920
85. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson - prime 1954-57
86. Denver Ed Martin - prime 1902-04
87. Frank Bruno - prime 1993-96
88. Jess Willard - prime 1915-1919
89. Clarence Henry - prime 1950-1953
90. Henry Cooper - prime 1958-63

91. Bob Baker - prime 1953-56
92. Johnny Risko - prime 1927-30
92. Arturo Godoy - prime 1937-40
93. Lee Oma - prime 1944-46
94. Nino Valdes - prime 1953-55
95. Tony Galento - prime 1936-39
96. Rex Layne - prime 1950-53
97. Karl Mildenberger - prime 1963-66
98. Charley Weinert - prime 1920-24
99. Gus Ruhlin - prime 1899-1902
100. Joe Bugner - prime 1970-1974


Just missed the cut: Joe Goddard (prime in part before Sullivan-Corbett), Marvin Hart, Bill Brennan, Willy Meehan, Luis Angel Firpo, Jack Renault, Tom Heeney, King Levinsky, Tommy Farr, Nathan Mann, Tami Mauriello, Joe Baksi, Lee Savold, Roland LaStarza, Harry Kid Matthews, Joe Erskine, Thad Spencer, Leotis Martin, Leon Spinks, Renaldo Snipes, Corrie Sanders

How in the heck is Vitali Klitschko at #45???

Billy Conn and Lee Q Murray over Primo Carnera, Jess Williard, and Ingo Johansson???

Donovan Ruddock over Tommy Burns??

I just have to say I'm confused by some your choices, but honest attempt at a top 100.

dempseyfire wrote:How in the heck is Vitali Klitschko at #45???

Too high? Too low?

Billy Conn and Lee Q Murray over Primo Carnera, Jess Williard, and Ingo Johansson???

Just compare Conn's and Carnera's performances vs. Joe Louis.

Murray is one of the avoided 1940s top black heavyweights and hard to rate. Willard though never beat anyone except for an old, fat, unmotivated Jack Johnson. It's hard to rate him higher.

Ingemar could perhaps be a bit further up, but I also see no really compelling reason for it.

Donovan Ruddock over Tommy Burns??

Well, maybe, maybe not. Ruddock was competitive with prime Tyson. Burns got beaten up with embarassing ease by Jack Johnson. #67 vs. #69 is a grey area.

pundit wrote:Here is an honest attempt to come up with a reasonably consistent top 100 all-time list, where "all-time" starts with Corbett vs. Sullivan. Of course there are plentiful chances to disagree (I'm not always in agreement with myself and copuld spend several more hours rearranging the list). Comments are welcome.

I considered Vitali retired but Vlad, Rahman, Byrd, Ruiz active. On current achievements Vlad would probably enter the top 70. The other three would barely make the top 100.

Cheers,
P

---------------------------

Hororable mention (out of competition) : John L Sullivan

1. Muhammad Ali - Prime 1963-1967
2. Joe Louis - Prime 1935-1942
3. Jack Johnson - Prime 1906-1910
4. Larry Holmes -Prime 1978-1984
5. George Foreman - Prime 1970-1974
6. Sonny Liston - Prime 1958-1962
7. Lennox Lewis - Prime 1997-2001
8. Sam Langford - Prime 1909-1912
9. Joe Frazier- Prime 1967-1971
10. Gene Tunney - Prime 1924-1928

11. Rocky Marciano - Prime 1951-1954
12. Jack Dempsey - Prime 1918-1922
13. Mike Tyson - Prime 1986-1990
14. Ezzard Charles - Prime 1946-1950
15. Harry Wills - Prime 1916-1921
16. James Jeffries - Prime 1899-1904
17. Evander Holyfield - Prime 1996-1999
18. James Corbett - Prime 1889-1894
19. Max Schmeling - Prime 1929-1933
20. Jersey Joe Walcott - Prime 1946-1951

21. Floyd Patterson - Prime 1956-1962
22. Peter Jackson- Prime late 1880's
23. Jack Sharkey- Prime 1926-1930
24. Michael Spinks - prime 1985-87
25. Ken Norton - Prime 1973-1978
26. Max Baer - Prime 1932-1935
27. Riddick Bowe - Prime 1992-1995
28. Joe Jeanette - Prime 1908-1913
29. Jerry Quarry - Prime 1967-1973
30. Bob Fitzsimmons - Prime 1896-99

31. Archie Moore - Prime 1952-1955
32. Elmer Ray - Prime 1942-1947
33. Jimmy Young - Prime 1974-1977
34. Tim Witherspoon - Prime 1983-1986
35. Cleveland Williams - Prime 1958-1963
36. Sam McVea - Prime 1907-1911
37. Ron Lyle - Prime 1973-1976
38. Pinklon Thomas - Prime 1982-1985
39. George Godfrey - Prime 1925-1928
40. Mike Weaver - Prime 1979-1983

41. Billy Conn - Prime 1941/1942 (at HW)
42. Ernie Terrell - prime 1963-1967
43. Tom Sharkey - Prime 1896-1899
44. Earnie Shavers - prime 1976-79
45. Vitali Klitschko - Prime 2002-04
46. Lee Q Murray- Prime 1943-1947
47. Ingemar Johannsen - Prime 1958-1961
48. Jimmy Ellis - Prime 1967-1971
49. Eddie Machen - Prime 1957-1962
50. Primo Carnera - Prime 1932-1934

51. Tommy Loughran - prime 1929-33
52. Young Stribling - prime 1928-31
53. Zora Folley - prime 1956-65
54. Jim Braddock - prime 1934-37
55. Joe Choynski - prime 1892-96
56. Harry Greb - prime (at HW) 1919-22
57. Oscar Bonavena - prime 1966-69
58. Tommy Gibbons - prime 1919-23
59. Jimmy Bivins - prime 1942-46
60. Earnie Schaaf - prime 1930-32

61. David Tua - prime 1996-2000
62. Tony Tucker - prime 1987-92
63. Buddy Baer - prime 1937-41
64. Gerry Cooney - prime 1980-82
65. George Chuvalo - prime 1966-70
66. James Douglas - prime 1986-90
67. Donovan Ruddock - prime 1989-92
68. Billy Miske - prime 1917/18
69. Tommy Burns - prime 1906-1910
70. Paolino Uzcudun - prime 1927-30

71. Ray Mercer - prime 1990-96
72. Larry Gains - prime 1928-32
73. Ike Ibeabuchi – prime 1997-99
74. Trevor Berbick - prime 1980-86
75. Andrew Golota - prime 1995/96
76. Gerrie Coetzee - prime 1979-83
77. Michael Moorer - prime 1992-97
78. Peter Maher, prime 1896-99
79. Lou Nova, prime 1938-41
80. Harold Johnson, prime 1953-61

81. Bob Pastor, prime 1938-42
82. Kid Norfolk, prime 1917-22
83. Michael Dokes - prime 1980-83
84. Fred Fulton - prime 1917-1920
85. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson - prime 1954-57
86. Denver Ed Martin - prime 1902-04
87. Frank Bruno - prime 1993-96
88. Jess Willard - prime 1915-1919
89. Clarence Henry - prime 1950-1953
90. Henry Cooper - prime 1958-63

91. Bob Baker - prime 1953-56
92. Johnny Risko - prime 1927-30
92. Arturo Godoy - prime 1937-40
93. Lee Oma - prime 1944-46
94. Nino Valdes - prime 1953-55
95. Tony Galento - prime 1936-39
96. Rex Layne - prime 1950-53
97. Karl Mildenberger - prime 1963-66
98. Charley Weinert - prime 1920-24
99. Gus Ruhlin - prime 1899-1902
100. Joe Bugner - prime 1970-1974


Just missed the cut: Joe Goddard (prime in part before Sullivan-Corbett), Marvin Hart, Bill Brennan, Willy Meehan, Luis Angel Firpo, Jack Renault, Tom Heeney, King Levinsky, Tommy Farr, Nathan Mann, Tami Mauriello, Joe Baksi, Lee Savold, Roland LaStarza, Harry Kid Matthews, Joe Erskine, Thad Spencer, Leotis Martin, Leon Spinks, Renaldo Snipes, Corrie Sanders

I think most of the list is solid, but there are a good few idiosyncracies that bother me...
I think Johnson, Langford and Tunney are too high, Marciano, Jeffries, and Holyfield are too low, Johansson is too low, Willard is much too low, Henry Cooper doesn't belong in the top 100, and I would have Mauriello, Firpo, and LaStarza in there instead of guys like Bugner and Mildenberger, whose inclusion ahead of them baffles me.

Boy, I guess Evander Holyfield would have had to administer THREE one-sided ass-whoopins of Mike Tyson to beat Iron Mike in the all-time ratings

pundit wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:How in the heck is Vitali Klitschko at #45???

Too high? Too low?

Billy Conn and Lee Q Murray over Primo Carnera, Jess Williard, and Ingo Johansson???

Just compare Conn's and Carnera's performances vs. Joe Louis.

Murray is one of the avoided 1940s top black heavyweights and hard to rate. Willard though never beat anyone except for an old, fat, unmotivated Jack Johnson. It's hard to rate him higher.

Ingemar could perhaps be a bit further up, but I also see no really compelling reason for it.

Donovan Ruddock over Tommy Burns??

Well, maybe, maybe not. Ruddock was competitive with prime Tyson. Burns got beaten up with embarassing ease by Jack Johnson. #67 vs. #69 is a grey area.

But you aren't putting much stock in to guys who were the "undisputed Heavyweight champions of the world"

Billy Conn has one real good win at HW, vs Bob Pastor, and after that he's nothing. Just b/c he did better vs Louis shouldn't push him high in HW rankings.

Tommy Burns defended the title 16 times, vs some solid opponents . . getting beaten comprehensively vs a prime Johnson (who is in your top 3) should not put him so low. And Ruddock being slightly competetive with Tyson in 91 speaks more to Tyson's deficiencies (which were later exposed more) than to Ruddock as a fighter. He did nothing to be rated above any of the lineal HW champs.

i like seeing peoples ratings.but no one will ever agree.
not saying you are wrong in your assesment.it is just that i would of had
alot of changes.
biggest problems i have are tyson above holyfield
and vitali in the top 50
26 of your top 30 are the same fighters i have in my top 30 just
in different orders.

nice read though

Thanks for your knowledgeable comments, guys. They are well taken. This is what I'm after.

Cheers,
P

This won't be easy, but since I'm critiquing I might as well present my own for critique as well. For an all time ranking I'm trying to include a mixture of head to head, accomplshments, and how good they were at their best.

I exclude fighters pre-Burns due to lack of film and tangible resources that are available to the study of fighters in the 19teens and beyond.

1) Joe Louis

2) Cassius Clay/Ali

3) Jack Johnson

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Larry Holmes

6) Jack Dempsey

7) George Foreman

8) Sonny Liston

9) Joe Frazier

10) Sam Langford

11) Gene Tunney

12) Lennox Lewis

13) Evander Holyfield

14) Mike Tyson

15) Max Schmeling

16) Ezzard Charles

17) Jersey Joe Walcott

18) Joe Jeannette

19) Harry Willis

20) Max Baer

21) Floyd Patterson

22) Sam Mcvey

23) Riddick Bowe

24) Ken Norton

25) Jerry Quarry

26) Eddie Machen

27) Archie Moore

28) Jack Sharkey

29) Billy Miske

30) Jess Williard

31) Elmer Ray

32) Cleveland Williams

33) Jimmy Young

34) Ernie Terrell

35) George Godfrey

36) Tiger Jack Fox

37) Ed Gunboat Smith

38) Primo Carnera

39) Tommy Loughran

40) Larry Gaines

41)Ingo Johannson

42) Tommy Burns

43) Zora Folley

44) Jimmy Braddock

45) Tommy Farr

46) Young Stribling

47) Jimmy Ellis

48) Fred Fulton

49) Lou Nova

50) Earnie Shavers

51) Tim Witherspoon

52) George Chuvalo

53) James Douglas

54) Jimmy Bivins

55) Kid Norfolk

56) Buddy Baer

57) Oscar Bonavena

58) Roland LaStarza

59) Bill Brennan

60) Michael Spinks

61) Joe Bugner

62) Mike Weaver

63) Trevor Berbick

64) Lee Q. Murray

65) Pinklon Thomas

66) Michael Dokes

67) Tony Tucker

68) Michael Moorer

69) Gerry Cooney

70) Leotis Martin

71) Bob Cleroux

72) Doug Jones

73) Chris Byrd

74) Vitali Klitschko

75) Curtis Sheppard

76) Bob Pastor

77) Tony Galento

78) James Bonecrusher Smith

79) Abe Simon

80) Luther Mccarty

81) Ray Mercer

82) Henry Cooper

83) Lee Savold

84) Tami Mauriello

85) Frank Moran

86) Jim Coffey

87) Turkey Thompson

88) Arturo Godoy

89) Paulino Uzucudun

90) Rex Laybe

91) Leon Spinks

92) Frank Bruno

93) Karl Mildenburger

94) Clarence Henry

95) Bob Baker

96) David Tua

97) Wladimir Klitschko

98) Charley Weinert

99) Nathan Mann

100) Jeff Clarke

dempseyfire wrote:How in the heck is Vitali Klitschko at #45???

Billy Conn and Lee Q Murray over Primo Carnera, Jess Williard, and Ingo Johansson???

Donovan Ruddock over Tommy Burns??

I just have to say I'm confused by some your choices, but honest attempt at a top 100.

lee Q murray is one of the most underated heavyweights of all time, i have done alot of studying on murray. i rate him 44th greatest heavyweigt of all time. very dangerous boxer-puncher

there is no logical reason to have tunney in top 10 heavyweights. tunney accomplished little to nothing at heavyweight(outside of two wins over a old rusty jack dempsey 1 of them tunney was down for 14 seconds), had just 8 fights at heavyweight, and ducked two hall of fame heavyweights george godfrey and jack sharkey

dempseyfire wrote:97) Wladimir Klitschko

How do you rate Wladdy so low?

He would marauder atleast half of the guys you rank from 15-50

If he retired tomorrow, somewhere between Patterson and Sharkey in your ratings would seem proper, I would think.

Sure, there are a few guys who are ranked lower that would most likely beat him, but that can be said about anyone on your list.

How about Ken Norton? There's alot more people lower on that list that would KO Norton than would KO Wlad.

I'm curious why you rank him so low? I mean, surely you realize that other people on your list have dubious losses as well? And/or have worse records to lesser competition.

He's only beaten what, like... Over 15 top 20 fighters?

How many top fighters did Jess Willard beat? He beat a 37 year old Jack Johnson... That warrants a top 30 rating, but dominating a slew of contenders doesn't?

Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster are sure as hell better than alot of the fighters half of the people on that list have lost to. (Both would beat the everloving shit out of Fireman Jim Flynn, for example)

True, Wladimir lacks career defining wins, but Chris Byrd was better than the best wins of many of the other fighters on that list.


I also think you both rate Michael Moorer way too low.

I miss Walter Neusel in your lists. I thin he was better than e.g. Karl Mildenberger.

The top 4 is my top 4. The top 20 is just about mine. Holyfield should be higher though (definitely higher than Tyson).

Mike Spinks at 24 seems way to high. Pinklon Thomas is nearly 40 places higher than Coetzee and Berbick which seems too much of a discrepancy. Similarly Ingo at 47 seems too low.

Bonecrusher Smith seems to deserve a ranking. Is he in there and I haven't noticed?

Bugner is much better than 100. He'd have taken Ruddock to school.

Nice list pundit. Like everyone else, I have a slightly different order than you, but most of the names are the same, and much of the placement is within spitting distance.

And glad to see Choynski get some acknowledgement.

Tantum wrote:How many top fighters did Jess Willard beat? He beat a 37 year old Jack Johnson...

There are quite a few other very good fighters on Willard’s resume. Perhaps you should look a little closer.

And yes, Wlad has beaten quite a few "top 20” fighters, but when there are about 25 rating organizations, I’m not sure that means too much. He certainly has a respectable resume, but it’s those brutal KO loses to journeymen Sanders, Brewster and Puritty that keep him lower in most peoples ratings.

Tantum wrote:He's only beaten what, like... Over 15 top 20 fighters?

How many top fighters did Jess Willard beat? He beat a 37 year old Jack Johnson... That warrants a top 30 rating, but dominating a slew of contenders doesn't?

Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster are sure as hell better than alot of the fighters half of the people on that list have lost to. (Both would beat the everloving shit out of Fireman Jim Flynn, for example)

True, Wladimir lacks career defining wins, but Chris Byrd was better than the best wins of many of the other fighters on that list.


I also think you both rate Michael Moorer way too low.

I generally give a lot of the older fighters credit for having success in MUCH deeper eras of talent and overall depth. The fact that Wladimir has beaten a flew of "top 20" fighters means little to me in an era of corrupt rankings and litle depth. The Heavyweights of 50 years ago had a much harder road to the top, and this pretty much translasted into being more durable, skilled, and experienced.

For example, and I really don't mean to exaggerate, but Brewster, Calvin Brock, and Sam Peter would've never made it past the club circuit in the 1940s. Sam Peter would've found out quickly he wasn't the only guy around with a chin and a big punch.

The fact that Wladimir lost embarssingly to several guys who were not even top level in this era (Brewster came from nowhere and has done little since) coupled with his major flaws in terms of durability, chin, and killer instinct, and I can't rank him much higher than I did.

I will agree though I probably rated Moorer too low. To be honest I'd forgotten about him until later in my rankings. But I wouldn't put him much higher.

dempseyfire wrote:This won't be easy, but since I'm critiquing I might as well present my own for critique as well. For an all time ranking I'm trying to include a mixture of head to head, accomplshments, and how good they were at their best.

I guess this is the only wat to do it.

My main points of disagreement with your list:

1) Joe Louis
2) Cassius Clay/Ali
3) Jack Johnson
4) Rocky Marciano
5) Larry Holmes
6) Jack Dempsey

Dempsey and espeically Marciano are a tad too high in for my taste. Marciano was losing to Walcott before he knocket him out, and he stuggled badly with an over-the-hill Charles. He delivered the goods, but it also matters how you deliver them. Dempsey's resumee suffers from the lack of top competition. Gibbons, Miske, Fulton are the highlights. Btw, I did not find Gibbons on your list -- this seems an important oversight.

7) George Foreman
8) Sonny Liston
9) Joe Frazier
10) Sam Langford
11) Gene Tunney
12) Lennox Lewis
13) Evander Holyfield
14) Mike Tyson
15) Max Schmeling
16) Ezzard Charles
17) Jersey Joe Walcott
18) Joe Jeannette
19) Harry Willis
20) Max Baer
21) Floyd Patterson
22) Sam Mcvey
23) Riddick Bowe
24) Ken Norton
25) Jerry Quarry

Mostly solid, Alp will love you for putting McVey so high;. even though on balance he didn't beat anyone on your top 100 list (as Denver Ed Martin did not make your list)

26) Eddie Machen

Too high -- destroyed by Johannson, beaten comfortably by Patterson

27) Archie Moore
28) Jack Sharkey

Sharkey is too low. In the late 20s he was arguably the best heavyweight except Tunney.

29) Billy Miske
30) Jess Williard

Willard is way too high. By ranking Willard in the top 30 only because he was champion one extends colorline policies into eternity. Willard should never have gotten the shot. Not only was there the great Harry Wills and the deteriorating but still excellent Sam Langford who were barred from a shot by the color of their kins, even among the great white hopes at least Fred Fulton and arguably also Gunboat Smith or Luther McCarthy were more deserving. As for the fight itself, Willard was handily outboxed for more than 20 rounds by Johnson but then the old, poorly conditioned man ran out for gas. This and only this got Willard the title. Not enough for a top 50 rating.

31) Elmer Ray
32) Cleveland Williams
33) Jimmy Young
34) Ernie Terrell
35) George Godfrey
36) Tiger Jack Fox

Fox so high up is a slightly eccentric choice

37) Ed Gunboat Smith
38) Primo Carnera
39) Tommy Loughran
40) Larry Gaines
41)Ingo Johannson
42) Tommy Burns
43) Zora Folley
44) Jimmy Braddock
45) Tommy Farr

Farr is a tad too high for my taste.

46) Young Stribling
47) Jimmy Ellis
48) Fred Fulton
49) Lou Nova
50) Earnie Shavers
51) Tim Witherspoon
52) George Chuvalo
53) James Douglas
54) Jimmy Bivins
55) Kid Norfolk
56) Buddy Baer
57) Oscar Bonavena

Bonavena below Chuvalo seems odd.

58) Roland LaStarza

What did he do except for his two Marciano losses?

59) Bill Brennan
60) Michael Spinks

Beating an ageing but still very tough Larry Holmes twice and beating up Gary Conney should get Spinks significantly higher.

61) Joe Bugner
62) Mike Weaver
63) Trevor Berbick
64) Lee Q. Murray
65) Pinklon Thomas
66) Michael Dokes
67) Tony Tucker
68) Michael Moorer
69) Gerry Cooney

I'd order these guys differently.

70) Leotis Martin
71) Bob Cleroux
72) Doug Jones
73) Chris Byrd
74) Vitali Klitschko

Byrd should not be above Vitali. He only beat him due to pure luck; while they were fighting a one-armed Vitali outscored Byrd. Vlad -- who you have much lower -- wiped the floor twice with Byrd, and Ibeabuchi took Byrd out with ease. Even an old, lame Andrew Golota was too much for Byrd. Byrd has really only one good win to his record -- a post-prime David Tua. This barely qualifies him for the top 100.

75) Curtis Sheppard
76) Bob Pastor
77) Tony Galento
78) James Bonecrusher Smith
79) Abe Simon
80) Luther Mccarty
81) Ray Mercer
82) Henry Cooper
83) Lee Savold
84) Tami Mauriello
85) Frank Moran
86) Jim Coffey
87) Turkey Thompson
88) Arturo Godoy
89) Paulino Uzucudun

A bit rough treatment for Paolino. In the late 20s he was a top contender.

90) Rex Layne
91) Leon Spinks
92) Frank Bruno
93) Karl Mildenburger
94) Clarence Henry
95) Bob Baker
96) David Tua
97) Wladimir Klitschko
98) Charley Weinert
99) Nathan Mann
100) Jeff Clarke

I'm missing Billy Conn in your list. He had a short prime at heavyweight, but this should not be held against him -- while he was at heavy he was awesome.

I guess you conscsiously did not list Harry Greb.

My quibbles part, good effort.

pundit wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:This won't be easy, but since I'm critiquing I might as well present my own for critique as well. For an all time ranking I'm trying to include a mixture of head to head, accomplshments, and how good they were at their best.

I guess this is the only wat to do it.

My main points of disagreement with your list:

1) Joe Louis
2) Cassius Clay/Ali
3) Jack Johnson
4) Rocky Marciano
5) Larry Holmes
6) Jack Dempsey

Dempsey and espeically Marciano are a tad too high in for my taste. Marciano was losing to Walcott before he knocket him out, and he stuggled badly with an over-the-hill Charles. He delivered the goods, but it also matters how you deliver them. Dempsey's resumee suffers from the lack of top competition. Gibbons, Miske, Fulton are the highlights. Btw, I did not find Gibbons on your list -- this seems an important oversight.

7) George Foreman
8) Sonny Liston
9) Joe Frazier
10) Sam Langford
11) Gene Tunney
12) Lennox Lewis
13) Evander Holyfield
14) Mike Tyson
15) Max Schmeling
16) Ezzard Charles
17) Jersey Joe Walcott
18) Joe Jeannette
19) Harry Willis
20) Max Baer
21) Floyd Patterson
22) Sam Mcvey
23) Riddick Bowe
24) Ken Norton
25) Jerry Quarry

Mostly solid, Alp will love you for putting McVey so high;. even though on balance he didn't beat anyone on your top 100 list (as Denver Ed Martin did not make your list)

26) Eddie Machen

Too high -- destroyed by Johannson, beaten comfortably by Patterson

27) Archie Moore
28) Jack Sharkey

Sharkey is too low. In the late 20s he was arguably the best heavyweight except Tunney.

29) Billy Miske
30) Jess Williard

Willard is way too high. By ranking Willard in the top 30 only because he was champion one extends colorline policies into eternity. Willard should never have gotten the shot. Not only was there the great Harry Wills and the deteriorating but still excellent Sam Langford who were barred from a shot by the color of their kins, even among the great white hopes at least Fred Fulton and arguably also Gunboat Smith or Luther McCarthy were more deserving. As for the fight itself, Willard was handily outboxed for more than 20 rounds by Johnson but then the old, poorly conditioned man ran out for gas. This and only this got Willard the title. Not enough for a top 50 rating.

31) Elmer Ray
32) Cleveland Williams
33) Jimmy Young
34) Ernie Terrell
35) George Godfrey
36) Tiger Jack Fox

Fox so high up is a slightly eccentric choice

37) Ed Gunboat Smith
38) Primo Carnera
39) Tommy Loughran
40) Larry Gaines
41)Ingo Johannson
42) Tommy Burns
43) Zora Folley
44) Jimmy Braddock
45) Tommy Farr

Farr is a tad too high for my taste.

46) Young Stribling
47) Jimmy Ellis
48) Fred Fulton
49) Lou Nova
50) Earnie Shavers
51) Tim Witherspoon
52) George Chuvalo
53) James Douglas
54) Jimmy Bivins
55) Kid Norfolk
56) Buddy Baer
57) Oscar Bonavena

Bonavena below Chuvalo seems odd.

58) Roland LaStarza

What did he do except for his two Marciano losses?

59) Bill Brennan
60) Michael Spinks

Beating an ageing but still very tough Larry Holmes twice and beating up Gary Conney should get Spinks significantly higher.

61) Joe Bugner
62) Mike Weaver
63) Trevor Berbick
64) Lee Q. Murray
65) Pinklon Thomas
66) Michael Dokes
67) Tony Tucker
68) Michael Moorer
69) Gerry Cooney

I'd order these guys differently.

70) Leotis Martin
71) Bob Cleroux
72) Doug Jones
73) Chris Byrd
74) Vitali Klitschko

Byrd should not be above Vitali. He only beat him due to pure luck; while they were fighting a one-armed Vitali outscored Byrd. Vlad -- who you have much lower -- wiped the floor twice with Byrd, and Ibeabuchi took Byrd out with ease. Even an old, lame Andrew Golota was too much for Byrd. Byrd has really only one good win to his record -- a post-prime David Tua. This barely qualifies him for the top 100.

75) Curtis Sheppard
76) Bob Pastor
77) Tony Galento
78) James Bonecrusher Smith
79) Abe Simon
80) Luther Mccarty
81) Ray Mercer
82) Henry Cooper
83) Lee Savold
84) Tami Mauriello
85) Frank Moran
86) Jim Coffey
87) Turkey Thompson
88) Arturo Godoy
89) Paulino Uzucudun

A bit rough treatment for Paolino. In the late 20s he was a top contender.

90) Rex Layne
91) Leon Spinks
92) Frank Bruno
93) Karl Mildenburger
94) Clarence Henry
95) Bob Baker
96) David Tua
97) Wladimir Klitschko
98) Charley Weinert
99) Nathan Mann
100) Jeff Clarke

I'm missing Billy Conn in your list. He had a short prime at heavyweight, but this should not be held against him -- while he was at heavy he was awesome.

I guess you conscsiously did not list Harry Greb.

My quibbles part, good effort.

My responses

1) Marciano is so high moreso b/c he never was beaten and faced a solid if not spectacular list of fighters in his career.

2) Dempsey's pre-title wins streak to me was very imrpessive, with wins over Mike, Smith, Fulton, Brennan, and Levinsky. I think his resume combined with how good he was at his best pushes him pretty high.

3) I rank Gibbons, Conn, Rosenbloom, J. Henry Lewis and other light HWs who fought a number of HWs at Light Heavyweight. I went against this with my entry of Gene Tunney, notably b/c he won the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world.

4) Mcvey never beat anyone in my top 100? How about Willis, Langford, and Clark??? I excluded Ed Martin as I consider him a pre Burns fighter and besides the record there isn't much to judge him by. In contrast we have a lot more info on the Black Foursome of the Teens.

5) Machen got Ko'd by Ingo but past his best got beaten by Patterson, but also at an old age was the first to beat Quarry. I think in a few other eras Machen could have been champ.

6) I agree I probably should rank Sharkey above where he is. He was very erratic and inconsistant however.

7) I don't agree Williard is too high on the list. First off, he beat Luther McCarty., along with some other solid contenders in Frank Moran and Carl Morris.. And while yes Johnson was beating him the first 17 rounds or so and I don't doubt a prime Johnson beats Jess, I still consider it one of the gutsiest and laudable performances in HW title history. The fight was scheduled for 45 rounds, and Jess sucked it up, took his beating, and showed amazing stamina, persistance, and punching power in knocking out an old but still very dangerous and crafty Johnson.

8) Farr has a crazy record (he burnt out quickly b/c he started boxing professionaly at a very young age) but watching film of him, he was one of the best of the 1930s. He also beat Max Baer and got robbed vs Braddock.

9) Since Oscar beat Chuvalo, and with wins over Folley, Martin, and Mildenburger . .I see a hard case putting George over Oscar (who's only notable victory is a rather lucky KO win vs Quarry), but I wouldn't raise too much of an argument.

10) I could def. put LaStarza lower on the list . . .after 50 you are just trying to think up of names!

11) Spinks got a gift in the rematch and barely beat an old, lethargic Holmes in their first fight. A further victory over a very inactive and out of shape Cooney doesn't impress me too much.

12) I wouldn't argue with putting Byrd lower, but his wins over Golota (I thought he won a close but clear decision), McCline, Vitali and Tua over-shadow anything Vitali did (which is beat fat tubs of goo in Johnson, Williams, and Sanders, the latter an old tub of goo). Also, while I had Vitali ahead, I did not have him insurmountably ahead, nor having an 'easy' time. And Vitali used both arms in that fight . . if he was as badly injured as was claimed he literally would not have thrown so many hard lefts and rights. Danny Williams vs Potter . . .now that's a bad shoulder injury.

13) I probably should have put Paulino higher.

14) Like Conn, I don't rank Greb among the HWs.

Great list Pundit. I wouldnt put Langford and Tunney in the top 10 myself, and think Fitz is way too high at number 30 heavyweight.

Decagon wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Byrd should not be above Vitali. He only beat him due to pure luck; while they were fighting a one-armed Vitali outscored Byrd. Vlad -- who you have much lower -- wiped the floor twice with Byrd, and Ibeabuchi took Byrd out with ease. Even an old, lame Andrew Golota was too much for Byrd. Byrd has really only one good win to his record -- a post-prime David Tua. This barely qualifies him for the top 100.

Pure luck? Do you know how many people have injured their arms missing Byrd all night long? Do you also think it was "pure luck" that Sonny Liston hurt his shoulder against Ali? You're ignoring that Byrd also beat Holyfield, who was coming off a win over Hasim Rahman. Heck, Jameel McCline is no worse than Vitali Klitschko's best wins - Corrie Sanders and Danny Williams. Vitali's record is crap, while Byrd (and Ruiz) actually did beat a number of top-10 heavyweights. Vitali beat only one - Sanders - and he was a crap, three-round fighter to start with.

And downhill goes the thread...

Decagon wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Byrd should not be above Vitali. He only beat him due to pure luck; while they were fighting a one-armed Vitali outscored Byrd. Vlad -- who you have much lower -- wiped the floor twice with Byrd, and Ibeabuchi took Byrd out with ease. Even an old, lame Andrew Golota was too much for Byrd. Byrd has really only one good win to his record -- a post-prime David Tua. This barely qualifies him for the top 100.

Pure luck? Do you know how many people have injured their arms missing Byrd all night long? Do you also think it was "pure luck" that Sonny Liston hurt his shoulder against Ali? You're ignoring that Byrd also beat Holyfield, who was coming off a win over Hasim Rahman. Heck, Jameel McCline is no worse than Vitali Klitschko's best wins - Corrie Sanders and Danny Williams. Vitali's record is crap, while Byrd (and Ruiz) actually did beat a number of top-10 heavyweights. Vitali beat only one - Sanders - and he was a crap, three-round fighter to start with.

And downhill goes the thread...

Decagon wrote:You just posted that, dumbass. Why do you rank Andrew Golota over Michael Grant?

Why do you assume I'd waste my time with your daft posts?

MEISINGER wrote:i like seeing peoples ratings.but no one will ever agree.
not saying you are wrong in your assesment.it is just that i would of had
alot of changes.
biggest problems i have are tyson above holyfield
and vitali in the top 50
26 of your top 30 are the same fighters i have in my top 30 just
in different orders.

nice read though

What are the 4 in your top 30 that I don't have, and what fighters would you take out?

I've Tyson above Holyfield because in his prime (1986-89) Tyson was a deadly force at HW as Holyfield never was. Comparable with the young Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali. Post-prison Tyson was never the same again, and this is the Tyson Holyfiled beat. Holyfield's career is different -- there isn't a clear peak but various phases of achievement, followed by disappointing slippages, which again were followed by unlikely comebacks.