BoxRec

Hi Frank,

I hope you still come on this forum....

You have a huge show on Saturday at Wembley arena, i will be there for sure.

Last week i attended the Cage Rage show at Wembley, I am not sure if you were there but I know David (Haye) was there.

I think UK Boxing promotion can learn from some of the things they do at the cage rage show.

It would be great to see the following at saturdays show (I dont know if time permits)

1) The big screens above the ring can be used to show replays of the action between rounds and after the fight so those in the cheaper seats can actually see what happened... this is already done in many US boxing fights and was done at cage rage.

2) At the weigh in you could cut some promos (quick interviews) with the fighters on the card, get them giving there predictions etc and show these on the big screens before the fight starts. It build the atmosphere nicely and introduces the audience to the fighters.

3) After each fight an in ring interview with the winner would be nice, certainly in the bigger fights.

I know some of the above things happen occasionally but it would be nice to see them consistently.

You may have already thought about these things and they may not be practical but on Saturday the place will be full of people who dont normally attend boxing matches so it would be nice if they left thinking they would love to come back :-)


What do you think>????

What do you other guys think???

Thanks

Matty

All good points, but I think there is one major stumbling block in all this, the fighters.

In MMA in general, the fighters are not paid anything like headline boxers. Of course there are exceptions, the biggest names are all earning well, but I don't think it's comparable yet.

I don't think that a boxing promoter could have all that razzle dazzle and still pay the fighters what they demand.

The other problem is that boxing doesn't have the same demographic, nor in general the crowds you get at MMA.

I was shocked when I went to cage rage at Wembley to see how many people were there, it was absolutely packed, and the crowd was so young as well.

However, boxing promoters MUST sit up and take notice, and start introducing some of these elements.

Why is it for instance, that you can sit and order drinks at ringside at an MMA show but not a boxing show? I feel the answer is in the partisan nature of boxing shows, where there is usually a mixture of hometown and 'outside' fighters. The incendiary atmosphere at many of the smaller shows certainly would surely lead to an almighty punch up?

The presentation of these shows is slick, jazzy and expensive looking, whilst most boxing shows have all the razzle-dazzle of a british rail sandwich. I have been to some boxing shows whichwere a bit more up to date (some of the Hennessy shows at Ally Pally spring to mind, where they had DJ's and some surprisingly decent grub). but in general it's still stuck in the 1950's 'spit and sawdust' mentality.

I find some of the MMA stuff a bit WWE or whatever it's called now, but the production values are certainly higher.

If boxing promoters want to generate a new wave of fans, they need to start introducing some of these changes gradually, but I fear they've already left it too late. MMA is tapping in to the WWE generation, the 10-14 year old who were watching ridiculous tight-wearing steroid ridden musclemen doing backflips in the ring, are being seduced by the production and drama of MMA, whilst the crowd at boxing shows seems to get older and older.

Was never big on pyrotechnics and loud music etc - it's all a bit corny. The personalities that go with it are corny as well. Then you gte to see a pair of overmuscled showoffs sitting on each other!

Final Fight wrote:Was never big on pyrotechnics and loud music etc - it's all a bit corny. The personalities that go with it are corny as well. Then you gte to see a pair of overmuscled showoffs sitting on each other!

The thing is, people like you will go to shows regardless. I mean, I went to watch Argyle when we were struggling in the bottom divison, I watched last season under Tony-fornicating-Pullis, and I'll keep going to watch in the future. I also, however, understand why crowds dipped under Tony-fornicating-Pullis, because the football (and therefore the 'show') was bleddy awful. It's the casual fan that promoters need to put on a bit of a show for.

That said, close competative matchmaking is the most important thing in getting casual fans to come back for the next show, imo.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:All good points, but I think there is one major stumbling block in all this, the fighters.

In MMA in general, the fighters are not paid anything like headline boxers. Of course there are exceptions, the biggest names are all earning well, but I don't think it's comparable yet.

James, Too true, but the MMA wages are getting better in the UK but i agree certainly at the top end they are less than boxing, then again the undercard fighters in boxing seldom get more than a couple of grand.

However I dont think the things I talk about will cost a lot to provide, please correct me if I am wrong.

The cameras and presenters are normally there at the weigh in so can record some promos, cannot see there being much additional expense there.

The interviews in ring merely require the guy from SKY TV getting in the ring with a mic..... Ed Robinson is good at that stuff for example.

The TV screens... I am not entirely sure but i am sure Wembley provide these and they are in place.. of course they may charge a bit too use them ...

I dont think any of the above is gonna be a hugely expensive add on....

Of course it depends what margins the promoters are operating at.......
Whilst the small town-hall promoters dont have much cash generally as there is no TV money, Mr Warren surely has no such cash flow problems????


Final fight:
Like Mr Beard pointing out guys like you and I arent gonna save the sport.... its the casual fans you need to attract. They respond well to that extra bit of effort.

The fact that British boxing promoters are being given a ‘101’ in promoting by companies that have been in existence for a handful of years is an appalling indictment of how complacent the industry has become.

The cornerstone of MMA’s relative success is competitive matchmaking throughout the card – no fillers, no predictable 60 – 54 pts saunters; real fights.

Boxing promoters are far too close to being managers these days and offer not only uncompetitive match making (and I am talking about the large, well advertised, televised cards here) but also poorly executed shows. No big screens for replays, no professionally produced montages between fights to whet the appetite. no in ring interviews, no sense of drama being created.

The UFC on Saturday was well run with no long lags between matches, a bill that didn’t alter hugely in the days preceding the fights and no sign of the uncompetitive undercard strolls that are now so prevalent in padding out big boxing bills.

If boxing doesn’t up its game I will stick to attending small hall shows featuring local fighters for my boxing fix and give my ticket money to UFC and the like when I am looking for a big night out and value for money.

knockout wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:All good points, but I think there is one major stumbling block in all this, the fighters.

In MMA in general, the fighters are not paid anything like headline boxers. Of course there are exceptions, the biggest names are all earning well, but I don't think it's comparable yet.

James, Too true, but the MMA wages are getting better in the UK but i agree certainly at the top end they are less than boxing, then again the undercard fighters in boxing seldom get more than a couple of grand.

However I dont think the things I talk about will cost a lot to provide, please correct me if I am wrong.

The cameras and presenters are normally there at the weigh in so can record some promos, cannot see there being much additional expense there.

The interviews in ring merely require the guy from SKY TV getting in the ring with a mic..... Ed Robinson is good at that stuff for example.

The TV screens... I am not entirely sure but i am sure Wembley provide these and they are in place.. of course they may charge a bit too use them ...

I dont think any of the above is gonna be a hugely expensive add on....

Of course it depends what margins the promoters are operating at.......
Whilst the small town-hall promoters dont have much cash generally as there is no TV money, Mr Warren surely has no such cash flow problems????


Final fight:
Like Mr Beard pointing out guys like you and I arent gonna save the sport.... its the casual fans you need to attract. They respond well to that extra bit of effort.

I did a piece on the show over at BBN, and pretty much said the same, the big screens certainly would help and they provided info on the fighters which would be easy enough to do.

I am afraid to say Warren has led the way on crappy undercards..

The smaller promoters seem to work harder on providing a competitive show.

Hennesey also seems to put on more competetive fights on the undercard.

The late 90's on Sky were an absolute joke.... Prospect versus Nobby Nobbs fighter/Fondus fighter..... you could successfully pick 90% of the results on a card... No coincidence that boxing popularity declined in those times.

BBN wrote:
I did a piece on the show over at BBN, and pretty much said the same, the big screens certainly would help and they provided info on the fighters which would be easy enough to do.

Is that Kevin??

knockout wrote:Hi Frank,

I hope you still come on this forum....

You have a huge show on Saturday at Wembley arena, i will be there for sure.

Last week i attended the Cage Rage show at Wembley, I am not sure if you were there but I know David (Haye) was there.

I think UK Boxing promotion can learn from some of the things they do at the cage rage show.

It would be great to see the following at saturdays show (I dont know if time permits)

1) The big screens above the ring can be used to show replays of the action between rounds and after the fight so those in the cheaper seats can actually see what happened... this is already done in many US boxing fights and was done at cage rage.

2) At the weigh in you could cut some promos (quick interviews) with the fighters on the card, get them giving there predictions etc and show these on the big screens before the fight starts. It build the atmosphere nicely and introduces the audience to the fighters.

3) After each fight an in ring interview with the winner would be nice, certainly in the bigger fights.

I know some of the above things happen occasionally but it would be nice to see them consistently.

You may have already thought about these things and they may not be practical but on Saturday the place will be full of people who dont normally attend boxing matches so it would be nice if they left thinking they would love to come back :-)


What do you think>????

What do you other guys think???

Thanks

Matty

If you go on Saturday you will be on your own.

The show is Friday.

KO Artist wrote:
If you go on Saturday you will be on your own.

The show is Friday.

i knew that !!!!

I agree that the sport needs to re-ignite the casual fan.

A lot of big sports fans who are casual fans of boxing often ask me why there are no big tournaments in boxing. They don't understand how a fighter can be 'ducked' or can become British Champion and not fight the best on offer. Or how Hatton is not going to fight Witter.

They want it simple and when I try to explain to them the way matches are made etc they just switch off.

One of them made a point to me that rings true...

He said that in football Man utd are guaranteed to play Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea at least twice a season. In boxing there is no guarantee the best fighters will ever fight one another. He also said that boxing fans (me) spend their time moaning about fights not being made rather than discussing ones that had been made.

The show at wembly itself may have been good, but the TV show was shi*e. They had right said fred doing the link work (badly) and tried way too hard to jazz it up ona shoestring budget. if they get another showing on sky, which i think they will, I reckon SkySports quality control should try to make the tv production a little more proffesional. Fights were good although it was a damned shame Bob Sapp pulled out. Also a shame they went head to head with the UFC.

knockout wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:All good points, but I think there is one major stumbling block in all this, the fighters.

In MMA in general, the fighters are not paid anything like headline boxers. Of course there are exceptions, the biggest names are all earning well, but I don't think it's comparable yet.

James, Too true, but the MMA wages are getting better in the UK but i agree certainly at the top end they are less than boxing, then again the undercard fighters in boxing seldom get more than a couple of grand.

However I dont think the things I talk about will cost a lot to provide, please correct me if I am wrong.

The cameras and presenters are normally there at the weigh in so can record some promos, cannot see there being much additional expense there.

The interviews in ring merely require the guy from SKY TV getting in the ring with a mic..... Ed Robinson is good at that stuff for example.

The TV screens... I am not entirely sure but i am sure Wembley provide these and they are in place.. of course they may charge a bit too use them ...

I dont think any of the above is gonna be a hugely expensive add on....

Of course it depends what margins the promoters are operating at.......
Whilst the small town-hall promoters dont have much cash generally as there is no TV money, Mr Warren surely has no such cash flow problems????


Final fight:
Like Mr Beard pointing out guys like you and I arent gonna save the sport.... its the casual fans you need to attract. They respond well to that extra bit of effort.

Yes, indeed, perhaps part of the problem is that whlist the MMA promoters are building for the future

I also think that many fighters, or rather the ones at the higher end of the game, are spolit, and EXPECT to have gimme fights and be bloody well paid for it. The MMA guys seem to want to be in good hard contests although I do think that they are strangely not risking as much serious injury as a boxer who can take a really sustained brain battering beating before being stopped or knocked out. Most of the MMA fights end suddenly when someone is grounded, and with the lack of leverage involved in ground and pound, aren't taking full force shots. I think that MMA is probably more painful, but less dangerous than boxing in terms of effects on the brain.

My impression (though I've not researched this), is that the promoters of MMA fighting, are probably with the exception of the massive UFC PPV's, not operating on the same kind of margins as boxing promoters, they are probably taking less and building for the future.

As for Wembley, I'm not sure whether those screens are there are not, I didn't recally noticing them when I saw boxing there, but then if they weren't on I probably wouldn't have done.

There are certainly elements to take on board, the nuts sponsored girls I saw bringing around drinks at the Cage Rage show I went to for instance.

Wales wrote:The show at wembly itself may have been good, but the TV show was shi*e. They had right said fred doing the link work (badly) and tried way too hard to jazz it up ona shoestring budget. if they get another showing on sky, which i think they will, I reckon SkySports quality control should try to make the tv production a little more proffesional. Fights were good although it was a damned shame Bob Sapp pulled out. Also a shame they went head to head with the UFC.

I agree that the presenters are pretty annoying, but correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they the guys who promote the show?

I watched the bill, and thought the fights were surprisingly compelling, considering I know little or nothing about the sport.

Wales wrote:The show at wembly itself may have been good, but the TV show was shi*e. They had right said fred doing the link work (badly) and tried way too hard to jazz it up ona shoestring budget. if they get another showing on sky, which i think they will, I reckon SkySports quality control should try to make the tv production a little more proffesional. Fights were good although it was a damned shame Bob Sapp pulled out. Also a shame they went head to head with the UFC.

I dont think you will find many people disagreeing with you that the baldies are pretty annoying...

However I think its important to look at what they did better than boxing shows rather than what they do worse.....

James: Yeah Andy and Dave i believe they are called are indeed the promoters.....

Also agree that they promote with the long term in mind.... whereas "some" big boxing promoters wanna make a huge profit on every show (and use this as an excuse not to make matches) rather than taking a short term loss for long term gain.

They lost the casual boxing fan and now it seems they can only make money by putting on fighters with a big personal following. Unfortunately the big ticket sellers arent always the good fighters and there fans are always boxing fans, so they only watch there man and then go to the bar.

Many great fighters without the right promoter cannot get fights in this country which is appalling.....

yeah I agree, its better to take the positives, but you know what, from a TV point of view there wasnt too much that was better than say, ringside, well aside from the fights being even!!

Wales wrote: well aside from the fights being even!!

just a minor detail then

Sky do a great job presenting the boxing given the time slots they have, but live boxing shows generally are stuck in the 50's as someone mentioned earlier....
Unfortunately the customer has changed in the last 60 years.

always has to come back to the cuddly allegedly

molly coddling Calzaghe

keeping Hatton from terrestrrial TV.

putting together some absolutely god awful shows on ITV when the chance was there to turn it all around

AForce being a flop ......dont forget its the super stars that generate all the mass audiences.......

remember the 80's golden age of terrestrial boxing ...it was the fact that Holmes/ hagler/ leonard/ duran / hearns etc were so globally significant that we were (as a corrollary) able to watch live fights featuring smallhall brits like Rocky Kelly !!!!! we were simply ravenous for boxing in those days




amir khan !!!!!

had he stayed in the amatuers for just 2 years and maybe fought in the aba's theres no doubt that brit amatuer boxing would have benefited beyond belief

Presentation of the sport, from the announcement of the fight to the presentation in the Arena could all do with a makeover.

I'm not trying to plug but I have a website making films that, amongst other things, look to exploit the hype if I'm honest. On a few occasions recently boxers have mouthed off at eachother and I've made efforts to catch up with the people involved to keep the pot bubbling but it appears that promoters want to manage their fighters closely. This is a bit of a request to promoters to have a little trust and recognise the need for some showbiz and razz-matazz.

Boxers thesedays would wise to recognise the benefits of establishing a recognisable brand around themselves. I'm not talking about the WWE Hulk Hogan type of persona but I am suggesting they open the doors backstage and let people in. The public choose what they like so just be yourself. For example, if you try and look like a gangster covered in bling there's a good chance people will pity you and want to see you beat. If on the other hand you run a roofing business and employ a couple of kids who were at risk of going off the rails before you gave them a break, the phone might start ringing off the hook.

Either way we need to push the sport back into premiership.

Yes, it's interesting isn't it, that the most popular and successful boxing of most recent times, Ricky Hatton, built his success by combining an undeniably exciting fighting style, and no-nonsense approach in between the ropes, and a modest blue collar persona outside of it.

Whilst Joe Calzaghe has arguably achieved more than Hatton, I think overall in his career, Hatton has put more arses on seats. Most of the Welsh people I've spoken said that Calzaghe wasn't really that warmed to in Wales, where they like their sporting heroes to be bluff and down to earth.

The Razamatazz seems to have dissapeared from boxing, during Naz, Eubank and Benn's day, the promotions seemed to be more jazzed up, with booming music, light shows, pyrotechnics etc. Nowadays it seems to amount to little more than a spotlight, and some tinsel on the shorts. Am I looking at the past with rose tinted spectacles, or have promotions been 'downgraded' over the last 10-15 years?

James: Talking of Hatton, I still think if there had been no Farnell then Hatton wouldnt have been half as popular.. I often think it went a bit like this......

Back in 1999ish it was Farnell selling all the tickets, loads of people would come and see him because I think his mum or Aunt ran a busy pub.

As Hatton and Farnell fought on the same shows, Farnells fans got to know Hatton and supported him as well being a fellow Manc..There was of course the football element too...

As Farnells career slowed down the Manc crowd continued to follow Hatton and the snowball started to roll.... soon he was selling out big venues and generating enough dough to tempt Tsyzu over...

I really believe Hatton wouldnt have been as big a financial success if Farnell hadnt been around at the same time.....

Perhaps so, but Ricky's personality allowed him to get on that roll. Farnell may have got it rolling, but Ricky became bigger ultimately than Farnell ever was himself.

knockout wrote:James: Talking of Hatton, I still think if there had been no Farnell then Hatton wouldnt have been half as popular.. I often think it went a bit like this......

Back in 1999ish it was Farnell selling all the tickets, loads of people would come and see him because I think his mum or Aunt ran a busy pub.

As Hatton and Farnell fought on the same shows, Farnells fans got to know Hatton and supported him as well being a fellow Manc..There was of course the football element too...

As Farnells career slowed down the Manc crowd continued to follow Hatton and the snowball started to roll.... soon he was selling out big venues and generating enough dough to tempt Tsyzu over...

I really believe Hatton wouldnt have been as big a financial success if Farnell hadnt been around at the same time.....

I know Farnell was seling loads of tickets very early in his career - a couple of coach loads went to the states to watch him fight in an early scrap!

But it should be remembered that Farnel was a red and Ricky a blue - whist some man utd fans certainly follw ricky many will have been put off by the entrance music and other associations with city.

Ultimately Ricky had the skills to go further then farnell.

In fact it was Gomez, Jennings and Farnell who sold the tickets. Hatton rode on their shirt tails for a long time.