BoxRec

Outside the US, these seem the three countries with a critical mass of solid heavyweights to compile an AT top 10. Views.

BRITAIN

1 Lennox Lewis
2 Frank Bruno
3 Henry Cooper
4 Joe Bugner
5 Tommy Farr
6 Don Cockell
7 Brian London
8 Joe Erskine
9 Jack Bodell
10 Henry Akinwande

CANADA

1 Sam Langford
2 Tommy Burns
3 George Chuvalo
4 Trevor Berbick
5 Donovan Ruddock
6 Larry Gains
7 Georges Cleroux
8 Earl Walls
9 Jack Renault
10 Kirk Johnson

GERMANY

1 Max Schmeling
2 Karl Mildenberger
3 Walter Neusel
4 Heinz Neuhaus
5 Axel Schulz
6 Jurgen Blin
7 Gerhard Zech
8 Luan Krasniqi
9 Adolf Heuser
10 Hein ten Hoff

i think hein ten hoff should be higher, i have film of him vs walcott, he looks good. he was 6'5 220lb and had skills and power and mobility.

i would put earl walls higher. a vastly underated fighter, i think he would have whupped chuvalo and cleroux

pundit wrote:Outside the US, these seem the three countries with a critical mass of solid heavyweights to compile an AT top 10. Views.

BRITAIN

1 Lennox Lewis
2 Frank Bruno
3 Henry Cooper
4 Joe Bugner
5 Tommy Farr
6 Don Cockell
7 Brian London
8 Joe Erskine
9 Jack Bodell
10 Henry Akinwande

CANADA

1 Sam Langford
2 Tommy Burns
3 George Chuvalo
4 Trevor Berbick
5 Donovan Ruddock
6 Larry Gains
7 Georges Cleroux
8 Earl Walls
9 Jack Renault
10 Kirk Johnson

GERMANY

1 Max Schmeling
2 Karl Mildenberger
3 Walter Neusel
4 Axel Schulz
5 Jurgen Blin
6 Gerhard Zech
7 Luan Krasniqi
8 Adolf Heuser
9 Hein ten Hoff
10 Timo Hoffmann

I defientely think there were better Canadain and English HWs to round out the top 10 than Kirk Johnson and Henry Akinwande (who I wouldn't really rate as an English fighter, as didn't he grow up and fight amateur in Africa?)

dempseyfire wrote: I defientely think there were better Canadain and English HWs to round out the top 10 than Kirk Johnson and Henry Akinwande (who I wouldn't really rate as an English fighter, as didn't he grow up and fight amateur in Africa?)

So tell me who you'd put in there.

Germany

There were not so many good German Heavyweights I suppose (some more good German Boxers in the Lightheavyweight and Midleweight Divisions).
Behind Max Schmeling, an ATG World Heavyweight there's a very big gap. He's followed by three World-Class Heavyweights... Karl Mildenberger, Walter Neusel and Heinz Neuhaus. After another big gap there follow some European Class Heavyweights like Hein ten Hoff, Hein Müller, Adolf Heuser and some other guys who took the European Title.

Friedie wrote:Germany

There were not so many good German Heavyweights I suppose (some more good German Boxers in the Lightheavyweight and Midleweight Divisions).
Behind Max Schmeling, an ATG World Heavyweight there's a very big gap. He's followed by three World-Class Heavyweights... Karl Mildenberger, Walter Neusel and Heinz Neuhaus. After another big gap there follow some European Class Heavyweights like Hein ten Hoff, Hein Müller, Adolf Heuser and some other guys who took the European Title.

I totally forgot about Neuhaus. I revise the list.

I think there's a case to rank Bugner over Cooper. Both tended to come up short at the very top level but Buger was alot more competitive there than Cooper.

dempseyfire wrote: Henry Akinwande (who I wouldn't really rate as an English fighter, as didn't he grow up and fight amateur in Africa?)

Born in london, lived for a time as a child in nigeria, trained to box in england, boxed as amateur in england, beat herbie hide in london in the ABAs, represented england in the 88 Olympics.

J-C wrote:I think there's a case to rank Bugner over Cooper. Both tended to come up short at the very top level but Buger was alot more competitive there than Cooper.

I'd have no problem with that. The #2-5 in the British ranking are very close.

pundit wrote:

J-C wrote:I think there's a case to rank Bugner over Cooper. Both tended to come up short at the very top level but Buger was alot more competitive there than Cooper.

I'd have no problem with that. The #2-5 in the British ranking are very close.

Yes Bruno and Bugner are hard to split too, in fact Bruno vs. Bugner prime for prime might have been quite interesting. I don't really know enough about German or Canadian HW to comment much on the other two lists but the top 5 Canadians look about right to me, good effort mate.

I think I would have placed Dick Richardson above Bodell, Neusal above Mildenberger and Gains at the top of the Canadian list (he knew how to use the ring and would have danced all night around the stationary Chuvalo and the short Langford), but that's just nitpicking on my part. Great list.

Scartissue

scartissue wrote:I think I would have placed Dick Richardson above Bodell, Neusal above Mildenberger and Gains at the top of the Canadian list (he knew how to use the ring and would have danced all night around the stationary Chuvalo and the short Langford), but that's just nitpicking on my part. Great list.

Scartissue

I don't think one can put Gains -- a game contender in the early 1930s who had difficulties getting good fights -- above a legend like Langford, and probably also not above an accomplished champ like Burns. But #3 would seem defensible. Neusel above Mildenberger -- yep that's possible.

One also has to wonder how a Jamacan who moved to Canada as a kid is "British"

Based on fighters I have seen in action only.

UK.

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Bugner
3. Tommy Farr
4. Frank Bruno
5. Henry Cooper
6. Bruce Woodcock
7. Don Cockell
8. Brian London
9. Joe Erskine
10. Gary Mason.

cosand wrote:One also has to wonder how a Jamacan who moved to Canada as a kid is "British"

Which one is that?

If you are talking about Lewis, you should leave out the 'Jamacan' nonsense. He was born in England.

pundit wrote:

scartissue wrote:I think I would have placed Dick Richardson above Bodell, Neusal above Mildenberger and Gains at the top of the Canadian list (he knew how to use the ring and would have danced all night around the stationary Chuvalo and the short Langford), but that's just nitpicking on my part. Great list.

Scartissue

I don't think one can put Gains -- a game contender in the early 1930s who had difficulties getting good fights -- above a legend like Langford, and probably also not above an accomplished champ like Burns. But #3 would seem defensible. Neusel above Mildenberger -- yep that's possible.

accomplished? wut did tommy burns accomplish at heavyweight besides beat middleweight o brien and marvin hart? nothing!

pundit wrote:Outside the US, these seem the three countries with a critical mass of solid heavyweights to compile an AT top 10. Views.

BRITAIN

1 Lennox Lewis
2 Frank Bruno
3 Henry Cooper
4 Joe Bugner
5 Tommy Farr
6 Don Cockell
7 Brian London
8 Joe Erskine
9 Jack Bodell
10 Henry Akinwande

CANADA

1 Sam Langford
2 Tommy Burns
3 George Chuvalo
4 Trevor Berbick
5 Donovan Ruddock
6 Larry Gains
7 Georges Cleroux
8 Earl Walls
9 Jack Renault
10 Kirk Johnson

GERMANY

1 Max Schmeling
2 Karl Mildenberger
3 Walter Neusel
4 Heinz Neuhaus
5 Axel Schulz
6 Jurgen Blin
7 Gerhard Zech
8 Luan Krasniqi
9 Adolf Heuser
10 Hein ten Hoff

Pretty good list. Ruddock to me had a great deal of talent, but post Tyson seemed to lose a lot of motivation. A common trait among many fighters after tasting defeat. Cleroux was much the same. I agree with another poster about Hein Ten Hoff, Krasniqui I am unfamiliar with. If both Cleroux & Ruddock had Chuvalo's heart & desire their is no telling what they may have accomplished.

What about Audrey Harrison?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

pundit wrote:

scartissue wrote:I think I would have placed Dick Richardson above Bodell, Neusal above Mildenberger and Gains at the top of the Canadian list (he knew how to use the ring and would have danced all night around the stationary Chuvalo and the short Langford), but that's just nitpicking on my part. Great list.

Scartissue

I don't think one can put Gains -- a game contender in the early 1930s who had difficulties getting good fights -- above a legend like Langford, and probably also not above an accomplished champ like Burns. But #3 would seem defensible. Neusel above Mildenberger -- yep that's possible.

accomplished? wut did tommy burns accomplish at heavyweight besides beat middleweight o brien and marvin hart? nothing!

I guess being HW champion for several years defending the title over a dozen times qualifies as accomplishing"nothing" at HW . . .

dempseyfire wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

pundit wrote: I don't think one can put Gains -- a game contender in the early 1930s who had difficulties getting good fights -- above a legend like Langford, and probably also not above an accomplished champ like Burns. But #3 would seem defensible. Neusel above Mildenberger -- yep that's possible.

accomplished? wut did tommy burns accomplish at heavyweight besides beat middleweight o brien and marvin hart? nothing!

I guess being HW champion for several years defending the title over a dozen times qualifies as accomplishing"nothing" at HW . . .

he defended his title against D level white hopes literally. he did accomplish nothing, outside of marvin hart win. name me 2 world class heavyweights burns beat?? PLEASE

Aren't you the guy who rates Marciano over God? Stick to what you know.

Cap

I don't think he has ever gone that far, Cap.
Anyway, Burn's title reign was sort of a mixed bag.
On the negative side:
Many deserving black contenders didn't get a title shot.
Some of the white challengers that he did fight weren't respectable opponents.
Bill Squires certainly didn't deserve 3 title shots.

On the positive side:
Burns did make 11 successful title defenses in 2 years. Look at the champions before Burns and not long after him. Corbett made one successful title defense in 2 years. Fitzsimmons had no successful title defense in 2 years. Willard had one title defense in 4 years.
At least Burns was risking the title against someone.

Some of Burn's challengers were respectable. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (who got two title shots) Fireman Flynn, and Bill Lang were probably as deserving as any other white opponent.

From Sullivan to Baer, no other white heavyweight champion gave a black challenger a title shot. At least Burns finally did give Johnson a shot.
Johnson himself didn't defend the title against the top black contenders.

Burns also helped promote the sport by defending the title in several other countries outside of the United States.

To sum it up, yes it would have been nice if Burns would have defended the title against deserving challengers. Still, his title reign was more impressive than many others.

Good post Alp. At least you're using your noodle. Burns was ahead of the pack in many ways. He handled his own business affairs and was criticized for it by some newspapers for squeezing the last penny from a promoter! Imagine asking to be paid what you're worth?

As for the competition, you have to look at it with the eyes of someone living back then. Bill Squires was considered world-class prior to their first fight, was even made the odds-on favourite by bookies. Oddly enough, as soon as Tommy knocks him out, all the so-called experts who picked Squires to win are suddenly saying they knew he was a bum all along. As for their two return matches, one was due to Sam McVea's manager backing out over contract negotiations. Tommy was a hard bargainer. Besides, someone remind me how many times Jersey Joe Walcott fought Ezzard Charles for the title? Wasn't it four?

Jem Roche was the Irish champion. Gunner Moir was the British champion. Jewey Smith was billed as the South Afrikan champion. Bill Lang was the Australian champion. Tommy knocked them all out. In fact, he still holds the record for consecutive knockouts in world heavyweight title fights. Not Jim Jeffries. Not Jack Dempsey. Not Rocky Marciano. Not even Joe Louis. Tommy Burns, the Little Giant of Hanover.

All of which considered, though I like them both, I would still have to rate Burns above Gains based on accomplishments. I also think that Earl Walls was a superior all-round fighter when compared to Gains. It is an extremely narrow margin that separates Walls and Gains, and on a different day I might pick Gains, the first black British Empire champ, over the "Hooded Terror".

In a side note, it is ironic that the guy who stopped Larry Holmes' attempt to break Tommy Burns' consecutive KO record had the same initials as Burns. :)

Cap

pundit wrote:Outside the US, these seem the three countries with a critical mass of solid heavyweights to compile an AT top 10. Views.

BRITAIN

1 Lennox Lewis
2 Frank Bruno
3 Henry Cooper
4 Joe Bugner
5 Tommy Farr
6 Don Cockell
7 Brian London
8 Joe Erskine
9 Jack Bodell
10 Henry Akinwande

CANADA

1 Sam Langford
2 Tommy Burns
3 George Chuvalo
4 Trevor Berbick
5 Donovan Ruddock
6 Larry Gains
7 Georges Cleroux
8 Earl Walls
9 Jack Renault
10 Kirk Johnson

GERMANY

1 Max Schmeling
2 Karl Mildenberger
3 Walter Neusel
4 Heinz Neuhaus
5 Axel Schulz
6 Jurgen Blin
7 Gerhard Zech
8 Luan Krasniqi
9 Adolf Heuser
10 Hein ten Hoff

Germany looks about right. I'd be tempted to move Lewis to Canada as he grew up here in Kitchener and learned to box here and fought for this country in the Olympics.

As for Canada, I'd remove Trevor Berbick as he never applied for citizenship. I'd replace him with Sandy Ferguson.

Upon careful reflection, I'd rank the ten best as:
1. Sam Langford
2. Tommy Burns
3. Earl Walls
4. Larry Gains
5. George Chuvalo
6. Bob Cleroux
7. Donovan Ruddock
8. Jack Renault
9. Sandy Ferguson
10. Arthur Pelkey

Honourable mention: Jack Munroe, Kirk Johnson, Charlie Belanger, Oliver Shanks, Angus Snyder, Willie DeWitt. I was going to add Jim Barry as I once heard he was born on an Ojibway reserve in the Great Lakes region of Ontario to a native woman and an Irish navvy father. I could never confirm it though.