BoxRec

When you hear the scores from some judges they seem to have seen a different fight to the rest of us - OK fair enough some rounds can be so close you can understand the judge going either way - The problem is when you get a wide margin between the scores after a fight so close in fairness it should have been made a draw or a win by maybe one round - There have been so many occasions through the years when fighters who have clearly won were declared the loser - Judges can ruin boxers careers with bad decisions - A loss for some fighters can mean no way back - For others, perhaps a set back of say two years at a time in their career where they they cant afford to have to rebuild again - It upsets us to see rediculous results but it must be heartbreaking and soul destroying for the fighter who knows he has won and has to face the consequences of getting the loss - This sort of thing can piss off a would be fan who says "if this is the way boxing is I will stick to football or whatever" (mind football has some pretty bad reffing as well)- Judges, promoters, governing bodies are all helping to kill the sport off and I for one have had enough of them - What do you think and dont say "Oh well thats just the way it is, it wont change" and then come on here beefing about blind refs and judges forgone conclusion fights etc etc - Make your point and lets hope its read by the right people.

Didn't DLH set up Golden Boy promotions as a direct consequence to his Mosley rematch loss. Saying that rediculous decision like that one must be stopped.

I'm a fan of DLH but I do disagree with the poster who suggest DLH always seems to get a raw deal. Even as a fan, I actually think his record should be worst that what it is, for me he just lost vs Trinidad, Quatey, Mosley 1 and Whittikar - (although I haven't seen the last one for a while). All of my cards only had him losing by a point. I thought he should have had a draw last night (and on second viewing, maybe more)... However the Mosley rematch he won pretty comfortably IMO. I thought he just did enough, in the championship rounds ironically, to eek out a decision vs Sturm.

Now, unlike in your original post - The loss didn't do a lot to harm DLH's finances or his star appeal (those girls still love him). However, I think that decision brought alot of questions that shouldn't have been brought up by experts/historians.

1) DLH cannot win the Super Fights?

2) DLH ALWAYS struggles with fighters with fast hands.

Now if he would have got the clearly deserved decision.... the boxing experts might have had a little less to say about the fight... it would have also helped DLH's recogning and legacy with the historians in the boxing fraternity (who are not interested in his mass appeal, in fact that probably also retracts his ability as a fighter). It has tended his legacy no end IMO, and it shouldn't have done.

give floyd the respect he deserves,he took on a man alot bigger than himself told the world he would beat him and did.he landed the better shots and got hit less,isnt that the art of boxing?im a fan of both so its not a biased opionion.the way i saw the fight was oscar was the agresser so you had to score some rounds to him,but the truth is oscar fought the way mayweather wanted him to,you cannot win a fight on throwing punches fo 15 secounds a round and then just coming forward.i had mayweather by 4.

I started this thread because I am fed up with boxing officials, promoters etc messing the sport up - I wasnt referring specifically to any fight, fighter, judge, ref or promoter - Its much more of a general question - As far as DLH is concerned a loss at the end of his career isnt a problem - Hes had his career, made his money and now makes a fortune out of promoting - I am far more concerned about the fighters on their way up who get bad decisions - Judges scorecards that are a complete nonsense - Fights stopped too early - Too many matches made where its obvious who the winner will be - That sort of thing - I think boxing is losing fans because of these things.

As far as DLH

GIFTS - Whitaker, Quartey and Sturm
Roberies - Trinidad
Fair Decisions - Mosley 1 and 2, Mayweather

But yes boxing is corrupt. Its not just corrupt officials but also the amount of protected fighters that is killing the sport.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:As far as DLH

GIFTS - Whitaker, Quartey and Sturm
Roberies - Trinidad
Fair Decisions - Mosley 1 and 2, Mayweather

Harsh, IMO.

I don't think Whitikar, Quartey and Sturm could be considered GIFTS - close fights that could have gone either way. Same with Mayweather. Conversley, I don't think Trinidad was a robbery - again a decision can go either way.

Mosley 1 was close (very close) but fair. I think Shane did enough as to most people and indeed on Boxrec it is labelled an "uncontrovesial decision".

Mosley 2 - sorry, no way was that a fair decision. The reaction of Shane Mosley post fight is as clear an indication that DLH was robbed. He knows he lost, just compare his reaction to that of his first meeting with Oscar.

I think there is a case for DLH to have 6 defeats - I wouldn't be grudge that. There is also a case for DLH to have 1 defeat. So overall I think the judging might have been a little harsh and damaged his legacy a bit. Cause out of six close ones, DLH has been on the receiving end of a loss 4 times.

stujones wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:As far as DLH

GIFTS - Whitaker, Quartey and Sturm
Roberies - Trinidad
Fair Decisions - Mosley 1 and 2, Mayweather

Harsh, IMO.

I don't think Whitikar, Quartey and Sturm could be considered GIFTS - close fights that could have gone either way. Same with Mayweather. Conversley, I don't think Trinidad was a robbery - again a decision can go either way.

Mosley 1 was close (very close) but fair. I think Shane did enough as to most people and indeed on Boxrec it is labelled an "uncontrovesial decision".

Mosley 2 - sorry, no way was that a fair decision. The reaction of Shane Mosley post fight is as clear an indication that DLH was robbed. He knows he lost, just compare his reaction to that of his first meeting with Oscar.

I think there is a case for DLH to have 6 defeats - I wouldn't be grudge that. There is also a case for DLH to have 1 defeat. So overall I think the judging might have been a little harsh and damaged his legacy a bit. Cause out of six close ones, DLH has been on the receiving end of a loss 4 times.

You sound like a big DLH fan Stu and I don't think I'm being harsh at all. Oscar throws fast combinations that don't land and you shouldn't score punches like that. Seriously this is how I scored each of these fight

1. Quartey - 116-111 Quartey - I had Quartey winning 9 rounds BIG, he completely schooled Oscar BIG TIME. HUGE ROBBERY!!!!

2. Whitaker - 7-5 plus the kd - it was close but clear win to Whitaker for me, again DLH punches allot of air, fans think they land BUT THEY DONT

3. Mosley 2 - 116-112 - Mosleys punches were SO much more effective and cleaner. Oscar probably landed more but his punches were ineffective

4. Sturm - don't remember my exact score but I found it hard to Oscar more than 3-4rounds, it wasn't close.

5. Mayweather - 117-111 Delahoya was punching air the majority of the time and getting tagged clean. Skys Delahoya cheer leading made British people score it for DLH, he lost big, watch it in slow mo

6. Trinidad - 117-111 Oscar - Trinidad just couldn't land anything in the early rounds, I can't see how he takes more than 3 rounds to be honest

Thanks for the your post, PN. I'm sorry I like your posts and you know your stuff - but I really strongly disagree with all of your cards, with the exception of Whittikar vs DLH - that scoreline is conceivable.

DLH throws fast combinations that don't land - yes vs Mayweather and Whittikar. Two fights that if you scored close to the opponent then I wouldn't argue. He landed plenty of times vs Trinidad, plenty of times vs Quartey, plenty of times vs Mosley II.

Yes, DLH didn't land clean many times vs Mayweather, but for many key rounds neither did Floyd with clean effective shots. In such rounds, you look for who is "trying" and for me that was DLH. I had it a draw (although on second viewing I scored it to DLH by a point), however - I don't dispute that Mayweather won his rounds bigger..... but he didn't do it for enough rounds IMO to win by the margin your suggesting.

Yes, I am a DLH fan - but I don't let that effect my card. Indeed, compared to many people I think DLH lost more fights than some of his fans. I thought he actually lost vs Tito, and lost vs Quartey and Mosley 1 - however, I think your Quartey card is still way out. Quartey didn't do enough work, but enough to win the fight.

It seems you must score alot for defense... cause you seem to not like people you throw and miss, even preferring people you don't throw at all to them.

stujones wrote:Thanks for the your post, PN. I'm sorry I like your posts and you know your stuff - but I really strongly disagree with all of your cards, with the exception of Whittikar vs DLH - that scoreline is conceivable.

DLH throws fast combinations that don't land - yes vs Mayweather and Whittikar. Two fights that if you scored close to the opponent then I wouldn't argue. He landed plenty of times vs Trinidad, plenty of times vs Quartey, plenty of times vs Mosley II.

Yes, DLH didn't land clean many times vs Mayweather, but for many key rounds neither did Floyd with clean effective shots. In such rounds, you look for who is "trying" and for me that was DLH. I had it a draw (although on second viewing I scored it to DLH by a point), however - I don't dispute that Mayweather won his rounds bigger..... but he didn't do it for enough rounds IMO to win by the margin your suggesting.

Yes, I am a DLH fan - but I don't let that effect my card. Indeed, compared to many people I think DLH lost more fights than some of his fans. I thought he actually lost vs Tito, and lost vs Quartey and Mosley 1 - however, I think your Quartey card is still way out. Quartey didn't do enough work, but enough to win the fight.

It seems you must score alot for defense... cause you seem to not like people you throw and miss, even preferring people you don't throw at all to them.

In fairness I havent watched some of the fights in sometime - other than Mosley 2, Quartey and Mayweather.

Mayweather - I can see 3rounds on my card that I gave to Mayweather that were close but I felt Mayweather won them. Mayweather landed cleaner all the time, and DLH missed so much. THE COMMENTARY NEEDS TURNING OFF WATTs SEEING THE FIGHT ALL WRONG AND IT INFLUENCES BRITS - more Americans thought Mayweather won - its the commentary affectign the viewer.

REMEMBER MAYWEATHER LANDED NEARLY WICE AS MANY SHOTS! Thats some statistic. DLH was not landing as much as he was given credit for.

I pointed out on another thread if DLH threw 50 shots and landed 10, where Mayweather threw 20 shots and landed 12 of equal effectiveness, that I'd give Mayweather the round.

Quartey - scored it recently (on youtube so I missed the end of some of the rounds). Quartey seemed to completely dominate the first 9 rounds, I think I gave 1 of the first 9 to Oscar. After that Oscar came on strong but I'm not sure he ever won all the last 3. This was much easier scored than the Mayweather/Whitaker/Mosley 2 fights for me

Mosley 2 - this 1s controversal BUT I prefered Mosleys work, his punches were much more effective and of a much better quality when he turned up the pace. I can see how it is scored for Delahoya because I scored it to him the first time and was outraged the first time I saw it. Now I score it to Mosley and by around 8 rounds to 4 too.

YES I DON'T SCORE PUNCHES THAT MISS AT ALL.

Well, in truth I do think that you (and I mean as a general rule of thumb not you specifically) should stick to your original verdict. Even though I now think DLH just sneeked the Mayweather fight, when someone asks me "how did I score the fight" I still say a draw. People might get swayed by the commentary, but I think in the case of Mosley vs DLH 2 - you are possibly looking for the "why did the judges score it for Mosley" scenerio.... therefore equally clouding your judgement. I certainly do that one my later vieweing of Hagler vs Leonard ("why do some people think Hagler won"). I have no doubt that the 12th round of DLH vs Mayweather which I now score a level round has been influenced by me knowing that 2 judges scored it for DLH and so have alot of experts.

You don't think the US commentary has influenced the American posters... of course it did. Look at Ledderman's card- the only person of authority who has scored it BIG for Mayweather. Watt scored it for Mayweather by 1 and the judges were pretty similar to Jim. Now you have explained yourself more re the fight then your card isn't so bad.... Score these apparent close rounds to De La Hoya and you have a draw. It looks like you have given De La Hoya 3 clean, Mayweather 6 clean and 3 close.

Yes, a fantastic statistic given at the end of the fight.... No one is disputing that Mayweather won his rounds bigger and I am sure Mayweather pulled away in the punch stats in the last 3 rounds. But they were still 10-9 rounds. Anyway, US fight fans are absolutely obessed with punch stats. Apparently, Pacquiao's numbers was alot better than Jaun Manuel Marquez - and I know LOTS of credible US posters from various sites who actually think that even if you take out the first round, Pac Man won the fight..... I'm sorry but that is B/S. When I argue this point, all I get is "look at the punch stats".... well they are equally B/S. In some cases you can get a round by round punch stats, but in most cases its only at the end of the fight and also its still subject to human error. Watch a amateur contest and see how many times in match you shout "why wasn't that scored".

Yes, you shouldn't count punches that miss.... however, when the opponent is hardly throwing and when they do and land there is no meat to the punches - then I think you need to equate the effort. Jirov threw and missed a shit load vs Toney, but Toney was countering with meaty counters quite often... Toney won the fight big. DLH threw and missed lots, but for 6 rounds (maybe more) Floyd did very little in return only really stepping in with his punches in the 10th round. Jim Watt was even suggesting that Floyd might have injured his hand, thats how much little effort he was putting in with his punches.

Quartey COULD have won the fight big IMO... I still thought he did enough, but his bazooka jab wasn't pistol like that night - again very half hearted. These shots don't count.

Yes, I scored both Holyfield vs Lewis's fight close.

Boxing judges do not have the luxury of watching and rewatching fight tapes to see the tiny nuances of the bout, and therefore doing so is not a good reflection of judging a bout.

I've watched the DLH Mosley rematch a couple of times, and what I saw was round after round of Floyd doing eff all. Feinting, jinking in and out of range but simply not throwing punches. He may have landed a few in the last few rounds, but overall, he threw too many rounds away to have won that fight.

It was a dismal fight, both men were awful, but I thought on rewatching it, that Oscar deserved the nod clearly.

I've just ordered Oscars whole career on DVD, so I'll be able to tell you,

Terry D wrote:Every time I've scored the second Shane fight I have it 115-113. I do think that a lot of Oscar's shots were ineffective and he did miss some. As the fight wore-on Shane planted right hand after right hand into Oscar's body, slowed him down and performed well late on in the bout.

I've scored it since and never deviated from the card. In fact I did not think of any controversy until the verdict was announced and my house mate screamed "Robbery! This is what is wrong with boxing! I could do better!"

As time passed we watched this fight 3-4 times together and discussed it endlessly. Since posting here I've argued about it with Stu, I believe, as well as Paul Concannon on a bi-monthly basis on other forums. It seems to be one of those fights.

Is boxing poorer for this? It is a double-edged source. Boxing fans love moaning more than they love boxing. We spend a lot of our time moaning about boxing. Fights like these facilitate that.

I don't think Boxing is necessarily poorer for such a decision.... just when a close decision has gone against a fighter in his 3 biggest fights, in which the decision has been close (well Mosley 2 wasn't even close IMO). This IMO greatly affects his legacy when people compare him with other greats.

I reckon DLH would swap his close wins vs Sturm, Quartey and Whittikar to his close loses vs Mayweather, Trinidad and Mosley 2.

I read many boxing forums and contributed on 2 at the time.... its only Terry and now PN who I know scored the fight to Mosley. Indeed, only you two who actually thought it was worth an arguement. Everyone else I've spoken to thought it was a true robbery... not just a controvesial loss. I've seen cards from reasonable posters (and no DLH fans, indeed one used to call him De La Chicken) ranging from DLH by 9 rounds, to DLH by 3.

DLH's legacy is cetainly a lot worse for this decision and in some ways so was the sport. DLH vs Winky was the fight fans fight at Light Middle... I think that might have happend had Oscar won.