BoxRec

well then we will just say that JT has ducked JC, lol, and that will be that...

fornicate the USA.

It wasn't Calzaghe who wanted 10 million now he says 6.

verballistic wrote:

Tsukiyomi wrote:eff the USA.

It wasn't Calzaghe who wanted 10 million now he says 6.

i guess you didnt read the included article---taylor said $6 million too!! where would hatton be if he said screw the usa? he wouldnt be fighting castillo in vegas on 6/23---that's for sure!! :(

by being unwilling to come to america, calzaghe will sell himself short---especially if his main euro rival mikkel kessler ends up doing that!!

Errrm I did read the article, you sound like you never read my post since you even quoted me having 6 million down too.

Does ground matter than much? I think It doesn't as long as the judges do there job right.

Boxing In America at the moment Isn\t as huge as It was anyway.

As for Hatton, he's looked awful since going to America.

verballistic wrote:

Tsukiyomi wrote:eff the USA.

It wasn't Calzaghe who wanted 10 million now he says 6.

i guess you didnt read the included article---taylor said $6 million too!! where would hatton be if he said screw the usa? he wouldnt be fighting castillo in vegas on 6/23---that's for sure!! :(

by being unwilling to come to america, calzaghe will sell himself short---especially if his main euro rival mikkel kessler ends up doing that!!

Who the hell is Kessler going to fight in the US? The US has no-one in the division which means there's no money there. Taylor is pretty much the only fighter who can sell a big money 168lb fight in the US.

Personally I'd rather here Calzaghe calling out Kessler than Taylor, its the more meaningful fight IMO and Kessler would be willing to travel to Wales, depending on what wonga is on offer, but I'll be happy to see him in any fight where his odds aren't 1/66.

JT is the easier fight of the 2 for Calzaghe IMO and it'll probably pay the more money with a BIG name yank in the opposite corner, hence why him and FW are pushing for this fight more than the MK one.

I agree with verballistic, if JC is serious about the Taylor fight then he has to go to the US. To be honest I think Calzaghe will bite the bullet and travel for the fight, because with the state of his hands his days are numbered and he's going to have to take some risks if he's going to earn the money he thinks he deserves. I reckon Calzaghe beats JT IF he can get to the ring in one piece, if he does lose though I reckon he comes out with a multiude of excuses then retires

Tsukiyomi wrote:

verballistic wrote:

Tsukiyomi wrote:eff the USA.

It wasn't Calzaghe who wanted 10 million now he says 6.

i guess you didnt read the included article---taylor said $6 million too!! where would hatton be if he said screw the usa? he wouldnt be fighting castillo in vegas on 6/23---that's for sure!! :(

by being unwilling to come to america, calzaghe will sell himself short---especially if his main euro rival mikkel kessler ends up doing that!!

Errrm I did read the article, you sound like you never read my post since you even quoted me having 6 million down too.

Does ground matter than much? I think It doesn't as long as the judges do there job right.

Boxing In America at the moment Isn\t as huge as It was anyway.

So, with ground not mattering that much, no problem with Joe going to the States then, right?

Let's be honest, Calzaghe needs Taylor more than Taylor needs Calzaghe. Taylor can get decent purses quite happily staying where he is, and is as recognised over there as he seems to be happy with. He has also taken on, and beaten, a champion and recognised great fighter, something which Calzaghe hasn't done as yet, and which he badly needs to do quickly if he wants to cement his legacy and not be known as a talent who didn't reach the heights he was capable of.

Calzaghe is the one calling Taylor, not the other way round, so basically Taylor is saying the he wants payment if Calzaghe wants the fight in Wales, or else he'll accept less for the fight in the States. Can't argue with that.

Well, look at it from these viewpoints. One, Calzaghe is a low key person who probably hates trabelling. Two, Calzaghe is the champion and is offering Taylor a shot at his title. Three, Warren fighters have to have things all on their terms. Four, Taylor is killing himself to make weight and could be an accident waiting to happen at middleweight, where he will most likely be obliged to take on big, hard hitting Pavlik...the more negotiations drag, the more Taylor will want the fight, believe me.

Anyway, I'd rather see the Kessler fight but since when did Warren make concessions to hardcore fans? Answer: never.

Not sure Taylor is such a big name myself. He's the heir apparent who got the titles and ths far ran out of steam (wouldn't be surprised if he and Hatton become unglued very soon) despite being a big draw at home...I don't think Warren and Joe care too much about profile and respect. They want the smaller man for more money (which Taylor generates on general principal i.e. being US Olympian) and Taylor HAS a following on these shores given that his fights with Edouard, Hopkins (x2), Winky (a man who is still recognized over here for his WBO title fights, he got some cheers at Hatton-Tszyu as did Corrales) & Ouma were shown live on Sky Sports.

Joe appears to be doing his part, i.e. he will be ringside at Taylor-Spinks.

If we are hard on Calzaghe for not ever travelling, I also lose a lot of respect for Taylor in saying that he'll never go to the UK. Taylor has been marketed as a man in the grand tradition of Monzon and Hagler, but they were willing to travel.

Taylor is a bigger name worldwide than Calzaghe. Also Joe called him out.
The USA is the boxing mecca and has been for a long time, Every elite boxer that is anybody in this sport has gone there and fought.
Calzaghe is destind to never get the acolades he deserves for the reason he wont travel and he only has one person to blame, himself.

I never subscribe to the idea that you have to fight in America to be a somebody. However, with about 18 of 20 title defenses at home, and with top fighters being cautious about coming over here, you'd think he'd finally make a move elsewhere.

Also, if he went to the US for Taylor, he could show Taylor up, who says he won't ever travel despite a # of appetising fights (Calzaghe, Abraham, Sturm) being in Europe.

PompeyScot wrote:

Tsukiyomi wrote:

verballistic wrote: i guess you didnt read the included article---taylor said $6 million too!! where would hatton be if he said screw the usa? he wouldnt be fighting castillo in vegas on 6/23---that's for sure!! :(

by being unwilling to come to america, calzaghe will sell himself short---especially if his main euro rival mikkel kessler ends up doing that!!

Errrm I did read the article, you sound like you never read my post since you even quoted me having 6 million down too.

Does ground matter than much? I think It doesn't as long as the judges do there job right.

Boxing In America at the moment Isn\t as huge as It was anyway.

So, with ground not mattering that much, no problem with Joe going to the States then, right?

Let's be honest, Calzaghe needs Taylor more than Taylor needs Calzaghe. Taylor can get decent purses quite happily staying where he is, and is as recognised over there as he seems to be happy with. He has also taken on, and beaten, a champion and recognised great fighter, something which Calzaghe hasn't done as yet, and which he badly needs to do quickly if he wants to cement his legacy and not be known as a talent who didn't reach the heights he was capable of.

Calzaghe is the one calling Taylor, not the other way round, so basically Taylor is saying the he wants payment if Calzaghe wants the fight in Wales, or else he'll accept less for the fight in the States. Can't argue with that.

Calzaghe can get decent purses staying here too and Is recognised here too.

If Taylor moves to Supermiddle and wants to be recognised at 12 stone then he needs Calzaghe.

ben k wrote:Taylor is a bigger name worldwide than Calzaghe. Also Joe called him out.
The USA is the boxing mecca and has been for a long time, Every elite boxer that is anybody in this sport has gone there and fought.
Calzaghe is destind to never get the acolades he deserves for the reason he wont travel and he only has one person to blame, himself.

Since when Is Taylor the bigger name worldwide? In America no doubt but Is there any survey or anything to back that up?

Taylor has been in the higher profile fights i.e. Hopkins twice and Winky. Calzaghe has never been in a fight of that magnitude

And that means what outside of Middleweight and making him the champ at Middle?

Chambers2 wrote:Taylor has been in the higher profile fights i.e. Hopkins twice and Winky. Calzaghe has never been in a fight of that magnitude

but he's been on quite a lot of big Uk fight cards, and the Lacy fight was a much anticipated unification while the Manfredo joke was also a high profile 'event' fight.

taylor is more like a virgil hill figther who fights in his home region, hopkins fights aside (& those are nothing to brag about).

I'd still rather see Taylor legitimize himself at 160 by fighting Pavlik.

Tsukiyomi wrote:And that means what outside of Middleweight and making him the champ at Middle?

I thought we were discussing who was the bigger worldwide name, the weight class is immaterial, so it means that those high-profile fights that JT was in were broadcast around the world and to alot more people than Calzaghes fights were/are, which IMO would make him a bigger name than Joe, he is also the undisputed champion and has been in meaningful 50/50 fights. JC has sat on his second rate WBO belt and has fought in a succession of mismatches

JC needs bigger fights more than JT does IMO, as we've mentioned JT has regularly been in MASSIVE fights where as Joe..... If JC is serious about wanting to fight the BIG names then he has to make some concessions. 99% of Joes career has had to have been done on his and Franks terms or not at all, look what matches that has served up and look what BIG fights its landed Joe

Well I was wondering what you meant?

Worldwide theres no proof whos bigger, In America It's Taylor, In Britain It's Joe.

I'd hardly call Ouma and Spinks massive fights.

Final Fight wrote:

Chambers2 wrote:Taylor has been in the higher profile fights i.e. Hopkins twice and Winky. Calzaghe has never been in a fight of that magnitude

but he's been on quite a lot of big Uk fight cards, and the Lacy fight was a much anticipated unification while the Manfredo joke was also a high profile 'event' fight.

taylor is more like a virgil hill figther who fights in his home region, hopkins fights aside (& those are nothing to brag about).

I'd still rather see Taylor legitimize himself at 160 by fighting Pavlik.

The Lacy performance was breath-taking and a high-profile fight, but not as BIG as JT VS BH/Winky. It was Lacys first step-up into true World class and he got his ears boxed off, I've wiped Manfredo bill from my memory, it might have increased JC's profile but for all the wrong reasons. Hopkins and Winky were not only established World champions, they were both top 5 P4P's at the time of the fights.

I disagree that being the first person to beat Bernard Hopkins in 12 years and after 20(??) defences is not something to brag about.

I'd like JT fight the likes of Pavlik, Miranda and Abraham at 160. I'd also like JC to fight the likes of Kessler and Mundine at 168, but unfortunately (for us) the money is in fighting the yanks.

We can say what we like about Tayor but Hopkins 1, 2, Wright, Ouma and now Spinks are all world class fighters.

Taylor is a far bigger name in world boxing, he's a lot younger than Calzaghe and quite rightly, Calzaghe should go to him...

For Calzaghe's own legacy rather than anything else.

Calzaghe beat a world class fighter in Eubank (who was also past his best) then a bunch of B-rate and over the hill champs (Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell) on his way to a genuine opponent in Lacy.

I rate JC highly, I think he'd beat Taylor. Go over there and show us Joe....

Can you see Taylor fighting a bunch of stiffs? Spinks will get blown away but he has been a champ, unlike Starie, Ashira, Thornberry, crap like that.

Tsukiyomi wrote: Well I was wondering what you meant?

Worldwide theres no proof whos bigger, In America It's Taylor, In Britain It's Joe.

I'd hardly call Ouma and Spinks massive fights.

Nor me, but they are far bigger than Pudwill, Mger, Bika, Ashira, Salem, Manfredo etcetra etcetra etcetra

I dunno, after the Manfredo fiasco, its going to be harder to get a legit opponent from the US, like Taylor, to go to Wales and fight JC. May have to pay a premium. Plenty of lower end guys and maybe Euro's, etc. would do it, but then that wouldn't be the Mega fight, would it?

Chambers2 wrote:

Final Fight wrote:

Chambers2 wrote:Taylor has been in the higher profile fights i.e. Hopkins twice and Winky. Calzaghe has never been in a fight of that magnitude

but he's been on quite a lot of big Uk fight cards, and the Lacy fight was a much anticipated unification while the Manfredo joke was also a high profile 'event' fight.

taylor is more like a virgil hill figther who fights in his home region, hopkins fights aside (& those are nothing to brag about).

I'd still rather see Taylor legitimize himself at 160 by fighting Pavlik.

The Lacy performance was breath-taking and a high-profile fight, but not as BIG as JT VS BH/Winky. It was Lacys first step-up into true World class and he got his ears boxed off, I've wiped Manfredo bill from my memory, it might have increased JC's profile but for all the wrong reasons. Hopkins and Winky were not only established World champions, they were both top 5 P4P's at the time of the fights.

I disagree that being the first person to beat Bernard Hopkins in 12 years and after 20(??) defences is not something to brag about.

I'd like JT fight the likes of Pavlik, Miranda and Abraham at 160. I'd also like JC to fight the likes of Kessler and Mundine at 168, but unfortunately (for us) the money is in fighting the yanks.

If Taylor brags too much someone might tell him they were sub world class POS fights and possibly they might tell him that he didn't deserve to win. But still, any terrific young fighter should have been able to beat a skeletal 40 yo.

Never said Joe v Manfredo wasn't pathetic, but it's another big event he fought on before a big crowd/international TV audience, as was the Lacy fight which was a big stage...there is a far bigger sense of occasion for Calzaghe-Lacy, for instance, than for Taylor-Winky.

Taylor-Ouma and Spinks are big LOCAL events (on cable), but then again Joe vs the ex champs he fought were sort of big national events (with cable tv audience). Cable/satellite of course marginalises events, but Warren always seems to get good turnouts doesn't he?

Anyway, world boxing has fragmented with different countries picking up the ball increasingly. Calzaghe's US following is pretty limited (over a handful of fights on Showtime, & 2 on HBO) whereas Taylor's overseas following is limited outside of a few appearances on Sky.

Taylor definitely made a mark quicker than Joe but is on the verge of fading away if recent showings are to go by. There are plenty of bad things to say about Joe, but his longevity has been impressive even more so with his hands and weight making.

Final Fight wrote:

Chambers2 wrote:

Final Fight wrote:but he's been on quite a lot of big Uk fight cards, and the Lacy fight was a much anticipated unification while the Manfredo joke was also a high profile 'event' fight.

taylor is more like a virgil hill figther who fights in his home region, hopkins fights aside (& those are nothing to brag about).

I'd still rather see Taylor legitimize himself at 160 by fighting Pavlik.

The Lacy performance was breath-taking and a high-profile fight, but not as BIG as JT VS BH/Winky. It was Lacys first step-up into true World class and he got his ears boxed off, I've wiped Manfredo bill from my memory, it might have increased JC's profile but for all the wrong reasons. Hopkins and Winky were not only established World champions, they were both top 5 P4P's at the time of the fights.

I disagree that being the first person to beat Bernard Hopkins in 12 years and after 20(??) defences is not something to brag about.

I'd like JT fight the likes of Pavlik, Miranda and Abraham at 160. I'd also like JC to fight the likes of Kessler and Mundine at 168, but unfortunately (for us) the money is in fighting the yanks.

If Taylor brags too much someone might tell him they were sub world class POS fights and possibly they might tell him that he didn't deserve to win. But still, any terrific young fighter should have been able to beat a skeletal 40 yo.

Never said Joe v Manfredo wasn't pathetic, but it's another big event he fought on before a big crowd/international TV audience, as was the Lacy fight which was a big stage...there is a far bigger sense of occasion for Calzaghe-Lacy, for instance, than for Taylor-Winky.

Taylor-Ouma and Spinks are big LOCAL events (on cable), but then again Joe vs the ex champs he fought were sort of big national events (with cable tv audience). Cable/satellite of course marginalises events, but Warren always seems to get good turnouts doesn't he?

Anyway, world boxing has fragmented with different countries picking up the ball increasingly. Calzaghe's US following is pretty limited (over a handful of fights on Showtime, & 2 on HBO) whereas Taylor's overseas following is limited outside of a few appearances on Sky.

Taylor definitely made a mark quicker than Joe but is on the verge of fading away if recent showings are to go by. There are plenty of bad things to say about Joe, but his longevity has been impressive even more so with his hands and weight making.

Thats unbelievably harsh on Nard (and JT) IMO. The fights between the 2 weren't great spectacles (Nards rarely were/are late in his career), but that shouldn't detract from the fact that Taylor beat him when nobody else had got close to him in over a decade.

JC's longevity is impressive, but what quality fighters has he fought that were in or near their prime?? Robin Reid is the only one I can think of
think of.

I have differing views on a few other of your points.
Taylor-Ouma and Taylor-Spinks have both been shown over here and were they not both shown on HBO/Showtime?? not really local events IMO. I don't recall JC Vs The ex-champs being national events, maybe JC-Lacy was as there was a large element of risk going into it and it was on ITV.

I mentioned Taylor's fights being shown here as a mark that UK fans do know him, as a parallel to Calzaghe having a moderate US following (Showtime and HBO. You know, to balance the point - which YOU saw fit to twist.


It was Hopkins' fault that the Taylor fights were so poor. But it was Jim Watt himself who said the rematch was "nowhere near world class."

Final Fight wrote:I mentioned Taylor's fights being shown here as a mark that UK fans do know him, as a parallel to Calzaghe having a moderate US following (Showtime and HBO. You know, to balance the point - which YOU saw fit to twist.

My apologies, I wasn't intentionally twistng anything. I just didn't interpret what you wrote in the way you intended it