BoxRec HW Computer Tournament Redux
Posted: 20 May 2007, 00:24
Brief History of Computerized Bouts:
August 1967- Woroner Productions, Inc.
Cassius Clay wins 15 round decision Max Schmeling
Rocky Marciano wins 15 round decision Jim Jefferies
John L. Sullivan wins 15 round decision Jim Braddock
Max Baer wins 15 round decision Jack Johnson
Joe Louis wins KO 14th Jess Willard
Jack Dempsey wins KO 7th John L. Sullivan
Jim Jefferies wins 15 round decision Cassius Clay
Rocky Marciano wins KO Max Baer
Jack Dempsey wins decision Jim Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons wins KO Jack Sharkey
Joe Louis wins KO Bob Fitzsimmons
Jack Dempsey wins KO Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano wins decision Gene Tunney
Jim Jefferies wins KO 10th Jersey Joe Walcott
End Result- Rocky Marciano wins KO 15th Jack Dempsey
1969- Rocky Marciano KO 13th, Cassius Clay
Personal Predictions-
Louis-Willard, realistic outcome KO 6th-8th for Louis
Clay-Jefferies, realistic outcome W15 for Clay
Walcott-Jefferies, realistic outcome W15 Walcott (close)
Tunney-Marciano, computer outcome was correct
Marciano-Baer, knockout in 10th for Marciano
Baer-Johnson, realistic outcome W15 for Johnson
Sullivan-Braddock, computer outcome was correct
Dempsey-Sullivan, KO in 12-15th for Dempsey
Fitzsimmons-Sharkey, computer outcome was correct
Dempsey-Corbett, realistic outcome W15 Corbett
Dempsey-Marciano, computer outcome was correct
Schmeling-Clay, computer outcome was correct
Louis-Fitzsimmons, computer outcome was correct
Marciano-Clay, realistic outcome late TKO for Clay or W15 for Clay (close)
BoxRec Computer Tournament (2006)*
Muhammad Ali
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
*Some controversy with computer bouts, but by majority of opinion these three men are the top three by the opinion of the posters here at BoxRec.
Set-up for the bouts was two tournaments, the best punchers against the best punchers and the best movers/tacticians against the best movers/tacticians.
Marciano wins by KO over Joe Louis to place him against the best mover/tactician Muhammad Ali. That match-up was never held due to criticism of the Louis-Marciano bout, so for a time 'tests' of the simulator was done to test it's accuracy in predicting up-coming bouts.
Computer Simulator predicted (on average) 8 out of 10 bouts correctly, as an example one of these included Hasim Rahman in his WBC defense against Oleg Maskaev which the computer predicted a late round KO victory for Maskaev; actual result KO 12th for Maskaev.
This time around, the bouts will be done via simulator from our very own BoxBuzz (if he will so help). The same set up as before, this time without the option of votes, as was done before. Opinions are welcomed, as well as predictions from the posters here at the site.
The winner(s) of the two tournaments will be pitted against eachother to determine the 'All-Time Heavyweight Champion' and a virtual poster for the event will be made as well as a plaque made for the ultimate winner and be made into a sticky on this site.
After this HW tournament is over and done, hopefully there will be tournaments done for all weight classes, to determine the 'best' of all time.
Editorial Note- While this in a alot posters minds will not be enough to satisfy their thoughts, opinions or take away doubt from their minds as to who could have beaten who, this is done solely for the amusement of the site and is not to be taken as literal 'truth', as the human factor is being taken completely out of the simulations, it is going solely on the facts presented to its self.
The All-Time Heavyweight Punchers:
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Max Baer
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
John L. Sullivan
Vitali Klitschko- modern day HW with 98% kayo average
Jim Jefferies
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns
Jess Willard
Joe Louis
Evander Holyfield
Sonny Liston
The All-Time Heavyweight Movers/Tacticians:
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Jim Corbett
Lennox Lewis
Jack Johnson
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Floyd Patterson
Jim Braddock
Marvin Hart- though barely remembered he did beat some of the better men of his time including Jack Johnson.
Primo Carnera- for as big as he was he wasn't much of a puncher at all.
Just Missed The Cut:
Leon Spinks, Riddick Bowe, Ingemar Johansson and a few other alphabet title holders. Why are these men discarded from the tournament? Spinks 'peak' was in his 8th pro fight and accomplished little throughout his career. Bowe may have beaten Holyfield 2 out of 3, but refused to fight Tyson and Lewis for one reason or another and let's be honest he pissed away his career. Johansson, outside of being a silver medalist and his three fight series with Patterson, accomplished nothing too special other than being a European champion and a win over Eddie Machen---all other men on this list have accomplished more than Johansson.
***********************************************************
First Two Matches:
George Foreman vs Joe Louis
Larry Holmes vs Gene Tunney
***********************************************************
Personal Predictions:
George Foreman going up against Joe Louis would most certainly be the toughest fight in Joe Louis' career. I don't say it would be Foreman's, as a man with the style of Muhammad Ali would have posed the greater threat of a loss to 'Big' George. What do we know of these two men? Joe Louis had 25 title defenses in a title reign that lasted for almost 12 years against generally mediocre opposition with the exception of Billy Conn, Max Schmeling and Jersey Joe Walcott. Louis arguably is the greatest puncher in HW history as the accuracy of his punches, quickness of his hands and explosive combinations made him possibly the perfect fighting machine from the waist up.
Foreman on the other hand is without much doubt, the hardest punching HW champion ever. In his 'prime' he annihilated Joe Frazier and Ken Norton in under two rounds and was undefeated in over 40 fights by the time he fought Muhammad Ali in 1974. He made a comeback in the late 1980's changing his style and proved to be a superb tactician and had a deadly jab. His longetivity proved a great assett as he won the title virtually 20 years to the day at the age of 45 against Michael Moorer. Foreman despite any stage of his career was most deadliest when a man came too close to him, though the later stage Foreman was the more better fighter.
Statistically this is a match-up between a man who fought in one of the lesser eras and dominated for 12 years (Joe Louis) against a man who fought in the greatest era for HW's and beat all but one of the top three men of that time (Foreman). The greatest fighting machine from the waist up, going up against the strongest HW of modern, if not all times.
How do I see this going? Foreman could take great shots, he proved this against Holyfield, Frazier (when he did get hit by Joe), Moorer who was beating up Foreman for the first nine rounds, Morrison---but unfortunately in his heyday had stamina and mental issues. Joe Louis had the stronger will than the 1970's Foreman and was arguably the greatest finisher, but lacked speed in his legs, was a shuffler/stalker, and its quite possible the prime Louis would have been more willing to engage with Foreman, and with his soft chin that wouldn't be a good idea. Foreman in his 'prime' was also a bit sloppy, never pacing himself, and he must try and keep himself composed against Louis---one mistake can prove fatal if Louis lands those lightning fast combinations.
If Louis is to win he needs to try and stay away from Foreman and throw lots of combinations, mainly to the body in the hopes to slow down his much taller and heavier and of course stronger opponent. If Foreman is to win, he needs to come right at Louis and turn the bout into a brawl and whenever in danger throw that huge jab at Louis to keep him at bay, he needs to also be very defensive and block as many of Louis' shots as he can. As much as I love Louis, I do not see this fight going more than 8-10 rounds. KO win for Foreman.
Larry Holmes going up against Gene Tunney would be a veryt interesting fight indeed. While Tunney fought in a much tougher era, his main career was fought at LHW and his two wins over a faded Jack Dempsey, Johnny Risko and retiring as HW champion in my opinion does not rank him highly as a HW seeing as the majority of his fights were at LHW and he only had three-four good fights as a HW. Tunney was a master tactician with good power, though. On a pound for pound sense he is one of the all-time greats.
Holmes on the other hand had 20 successful defenses as HW champion, beating the likes of Norton, a badly faded Ali, Shavers, Cooney, Leon Spinks and of course future champions Berbick and Witherspoon. The jab against Holmes is that the majority of his defenses were against hand picked dead mean such as Scott LeDoux, Alfredo Evangelista, Marvis Frazier and the fact that he never unified the HW titles. Holmes jab is arguably the best of the division's history, had good power and made a pretty successful come back in the 1990's, getting two title shots at Holyfield and McCall losing decisions. Holmes could also climb off the floor to win as he proved against Shavers. His losses to Spinks, though the second was a robbery, was in his later years and his loss to Tyson was his first bout in over 2 years and of course the losses to Holyfield and McCall. He went 48-0 in his first 48 fights.
For Tunney to win, he needs to utilise his much smaller size to his advantage and be more of a speedster, moving in and out and peppering Holmes with jabs and one-two's. He also needs to be defensive as he is facing quite possibly a much better boxer and one with more power than his own self. He needs to be busier than he's ever been in his entire career to pull this one off.
Holmes just needs to be himself, but with the killer attitude cranked to the tilt. Holmes will be facing a much more 'dangerous' opponent than Norton, more dangerous than the Witherspoon's and Berbick's that he made his career on. He needs to utilise his jab to full advantage and try and move Tunney towards the ropes and lower the boom on him. Tunney is tough, but is able to be dropped and get in hard situations. Holmes needs to use his height and weight to his best advantages, and he'll need it, as he is going up a faster object, more elusive target than what Michael Spinks proved to be.
Prediction? I see Holmes winning via unaminous decision by margins of two and three point differentials.
August 1967- Woroner Productions, Inc.
Cassius Clay wins 15 round decision Max Schmeling
Rocky Marciano wins 15 round decision Jim Jefferies
John L. Sullivan wins 15 round decision Jim Braddock
Max Baer wins 15 round decision Jack Johnson
Joe Louis wins KO 14th Jess Willard
Jack Dempsey wins KO 7th John L. Sullivan
Jim Jefferies wins 15 round decision Cassius Clay
Rocky Marciano wins KO Max Baer
Jack Dempsey wins decision Jim Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons wins KO Jack Sharkey
Joe Louis wins KO Bob Fitzsimmons
Jack Dempsey wins KO Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano wins decision Gene Tunney
Jim Jefferies wins KO 10th Jersey Joe Walcott
End Result- Rocky Marciano wins KO 15th Jack Dempsey
1969- Rocky Marciano KO 13th, Cassius Clay
Personal Predictions-
Louis-Willard, realistic outcome KO 6th-8th for Louis
Clay-Jefferies, realistic outcome W15 for Clay
Walcott-Jefferies, realistic outcome W15 Walcott (close)
Tunney-Marciano, computer outcome was correct
Marciano-Baer, knockout in 10th for Marciano
Baer-Johnson, realistic outcome W15 for Johnson
Sullivan-Braddock, computer outcome was correct
Dempsey-Sullivan, KO in 12-15th for Dempsey
Fitzsimmons-Sharkey, computer outcome was correct
Dempsey-Corbett, realistic outcome W15 Corbett
Dempsey-Marciano, computer outcome was correct
Schmeling-Clay, computer outcome was correct
Louis-Fitzsimmons, computer outcome was correct
Marciano-Clay, realistic outcome late TKO for Clay or W15 for Clay (close)
BoxRec Computer Tournament (2006)*
Muhammad Ali
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
*Some controversy with computer bouts, but by majority of opinion these three men are the top three by the opinion of the posters here at BoxRec.
Set-up for the bouts was two tournaments, the best punchers against the best punchers and the best movers/tacticians against the best movers/tacticians.
Marciano wins by KO over Joe Louis to place him against the best mover/tactician Muhammad Ali. That match-up was never held due to criticism of the Louis-Marciano bout, so for a time 'tests' of the simulator was done to test it's accuracy in predicting up-coming bouts.
Computer Simulator predicted (on average) 8 out of 10 bouts correctly, as an example one of these included Hasim Rahman in his WBC defense against Oleg Maskaev which the computer predicted a late round KO victory for Maskaev; actual result KO 12th for Maskaev.
This time around, the bouts will be done via simulator from our very own BoxBuzz (if he will so help). The same set up as before, this time without the option of votes, as was done before. Opinions are welcomed, as well as predictions from the posters here at the site.
The winner(s) of the two tournaments will be pitted against eachother to determine the 'All-Time Heavyweight Champion' and a virtual poster for the event will be made as well as a plaque made for the ultimate winner and be made into a sticky on this site.
After this HW tournament is over and done, hopefully there will be tournaments done for all weight classes, to determine the 'best' of all time.
Editorial Note- While this in a alot posters minds will not be enough to satisfy their thoughts, opinions or take away doubt from their minds as to who could have beaten who, this is done solely for the amusement of the site and is not to be taken as literal 'truth', as the human factor is being taken completely out of the simulations, it is going solely on the facts presented to its self.
The All-Time Heavyweight Punchers:
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Max Baer
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
John L. Sullivan
Vitali Klitschko- modern day HW with 98% kayo average
Jim Jefferies
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns
Jess Willard
Joe Louis
Evander Holyfield
Sonny Liston
The All-Time Heavyweight Movers/Tacticians:
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Jim Corbett
Lennox Lewis
Jack Johnson
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Floyd Patterson
Jim Braddock
Marvin Hart- though barely remembered he did beat some of the better men of his time including Jack Johnson.
Primo Carnera- for as big as he was he wasn't much of a puncher at all.
Just Missed The Cut:
Leon Spinks, Riddick Bowe, Ingemar Johansson and a few other alphabet title holders. Why are these men discarded from the tournament? Spinks 'peak' was in his 8th pro fight and accomplished little throughout his career. Bowe may have beaten Holyfield 2 out of 3, but refused to fight Tyson and Lewis for one reason or another and let's be honest he pissed away his career. Johansson, outside of being a silver medalist and his three fight series with Patterson, accomplished nothing too special other than being a European champion and a win over Eddie Machen---all other men on this list have accomplished more than Johansson.
***********************************************************
First Two Matches:
George Foreman vs Joe Louis
Larry Holmes vs Gene Tunney
***********************************************************
Personal Predictions:
George Foreman going up against Joe Louis would most certainly be the toughest fight in Joe Louis' career. I don't say it would be Foreman's, as a man with the style of Muhammad Ali would have posed the greater threat of a loss to 'Big' George. What do we know of these two men? Joe Louis had 25 title defenses in a title reign that lasted for almost 12 years against generally mediocre opposition with the exception of Billy Conn, Max Schmeling and Jersey Joe Walcott. Louis arguably is the greatest puncher in HW history as the accuracy of his punches, quickness of his hands and explosive combinations made him possibly the perfect fighting machine from the waist up.
Foreman on the other hand is without much doubt, the hardest punching HW champion ever. In his 'prime' he annihilated Joe Frazier and Ken Norton in under two rounds and was undefeated in over 40 fights by the time he fought Muhammad Ali in 1974. He made a comeback in the late 1980's changing his style and proved to be a superb tactician and had a deadly jab. His longetivity proved a great assett as he won the title virtually 20 years to the day at the age of 45 against Michael Moorer. Foreman despite any stage of his career was most deadliest when a man came too close to him, though the later stage Foreman was the more better fighter.
Statistically this is a match-up between a man who fought in one of the lesser eras and dominated for 12 years (Joe Louis) against a man who fought in the greatest era for HW's and beat all but one of the top three men of that time (Foreman). The greatest fighting machine from the waist up, going up against the strongest HW of modern, if not all times.
How do I see this going? Foreman could take great shots, he proved this against Holyfield, Frazier (when he did get hit by Joe), Moorer who was beating up Foreman for the first nine rounds, Morrison---but unfortunately in his heyday had stamina and mental issues. Joe Louis had the stronger will than the 1970's Foreman and was arguably the greatest finisher, but lacked speed in his legs, was a shuffler/stalker, and its quite possible the prime Louis would have been more willing to engage with Foreman, and with his soft chin that wouldn't be a good idea. Foreman in his 'prime' was also a bit sloppy, never pacing himself, and he must try and keep himself composed against Louis---one mistake can prove fatal if Louis lands those lightning fast combinations.
If Louis is to win he needs to try and stay away from Foreman and throw lots of combinations, mainly to the body in the hopes to slow down his much taller and heavier and of course stronger opponent. If Foreman is to win, he needs to come right at Louis and turn the bout into a brawl and whenever in danger throw that huge jab at Louis to keep him at bay, he needs to also be very defensive and block as many of Louis' shots as he can. As much as I love Louis, I do not see this fight going more than 8-10 rounds. KO win for Foreman.
Larry Holmes going up against Gene Tunney would be a veryt interesting fight indeed. While Tunney fought in a much tougher era, his main career was fought at LHW and his two wins over a faded Jack Dempsey, Johnny Risko and retiring as HW champion in my opinion does not rank him highly as a HW seeing as the majority of his fights were at LHW and he only had three-four good fights as a HW. Tunney was a master tactician with good power, though. On a pound for pound sense he is one of the all-time greats.
Holmes on the other hand had 20 successful defenses as HW champion, beating the likes of Norton, a badly faded Ali, Shavers, Cooney, Leon Spinks and of course future champions Berbick and Witherspoon. The jab against Holmes is that the majority of his defenses were against hand picked dead mean such as Scott LeDoux, Alfredo Evangelista, Marvis Frazier and the fact that he never unified the HW titles. Holmes jab is arguably the best of the division's history, had good power and made a pretty successful come back in the 1990's, getting two title shots at Holyfield and McCall losing decisions. Holmes could also climb off the floor to win as he proved against Shavers. His losses to Spinks, though the second was a robbery, was in his later years and his loss to Tyson was his first bout in over 2 years and of course the losses to Holyfield and McCall. He went 48-0 in his first 48 fights.
For Tunney to win, he needs to utilise his much smaller size to his advantage and be more of a speedster, moving in and out and peppering Holmes with jabs and one-two's. He also needs to be defensive as he is facing quite possibly a much better boxer and one with more power than his own self. He needs to be busier than he's ever been in his entire career to pull this one off.
Holmes just needs to be himself, but with the killer attitude cranked to the tilt. Holmes will be facing a much more 'dangerous' opponent than Norton, more dangerous than the Witherspoon's and Berbick's that he made his career on. He needs to utilise his jab to full advantage and try and move Tunney towards the ropes and lower the boom on him. Tunney is tough, but is able to be dropped and get in hard situations. Holmes needs to use his height and weight to his best advantages, and he'll need it, as he is going up a faster object, more elusive target than what Michael Spinks proved to be.
Prediction? I see Holmes winning via unaminous decision by margins of two and three point differentials.